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So Long, Shipstorm + Clan Battle Boycott????

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Leading tournament organizer Duke returns to share the history of the much beloved Shipstorm tournament and his ambitions for a new Supremacy League. Next, the leaders of the Clan Battle Boycott movement join us to discuss their cause.

https://anchor.fm/the-new-guys/episodes/Episode-033-So-Long--Shipstorm--Clan-Battle-Boycott-eg6eud

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I was trying to work simultaneously with trying to listen to this one, so I'm not sure I got it all.

The boycott is in its early days and is still basically not organized yet. I'm not so sure a boycott can even be carried out for various reasons.

The gist of this was:

  • These guys are in the top clans
  • They like T10 because they feel it is the most competitive
  • Their biggest issue is with CV spotting
  • They do not feel T6 is competitive and feel it is somewhat "pay to win"
  • They are not asking for removal of CVs from CBs (or at least one wasn't), but they want them paused and reworked as to spotting mechanics.

There was some pretty decent push back from the moderator about what these guys are seeking with the boycott and how they can get people to follow through on a boycott.

Apparently, WG stated CB participation was up 25% last season. Yikes. But Putin massages the law to get his way too, right? This as well as them controlling the game puts them in the driver's seat. Hence, the T6 season to pretend to placate the community while surely simultaneously laughing behind our backs.

The moderator needs to understand it's not just high level clans who don't like CVs. It's a ton of the community who play CBs, ranked and randoms.

It was brought up that lower level clans will likely still play CBs in T6 with CVs. There are plenty of Storm level clans who don't like CVs. I personally don't see how they can stop people from playing, especially in these early days and with not having any kind of unified agenda yet.

These guys also said they would be amenable to playing some CB seasons with CVs if other seasons were without and with WG hypothetically announcing four seasons in a coming year. But, as we all know, WG is horrific at providing notice or a calendar, so that's just a pipe dream.

I've been on the boycott server, and it's a jumbled mess at the moment. This will take a lot more time to play out. I just don't think at this point they can get anything close to a majority of people to not play, regardless of whether they have 2000 people on their server. It was brought up that lower level clans are hungry for steel to get steel ships. And there you go.

The way this all dies out is just with time and regular attrition seen in any game. This whole controversy may nudge some in that direction.

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On 7/1/2020 at 6:38 PM, Lt_Newcastle said:

I was trying to work simultaneously with trying to listen to this one, so I'm not sure I got it all.

The boycott is in its early days and is still basically not organized yet. I'm not so sure a boycott can even be carried out for various reasons.

The gist of this was:

  • These guys are in the top clans
  • They like T10 because they feel it is the most competitive
  • Their biggest issue is with CV spotting
  • They do not feel T6 is competitive and feel it is somewhat "pay to win"
  • They are not asking for removal of CVs from CBs (or at least one wasn't), but they want them paused and reworked as to spotting mechanics.

There was some pretty decent push back from the moderator about what these guys are seeking with the boycott and how they can get people to follow through on a boycott.

Apparently, WG stated CB participation was up 25% last season. Yikes. But Putin massages the law to get his way too, right? This as well as them controlling the game puts them in the driver's seat. Hence, the T6 season to pretend to placate the community while surely simultaneously laughing behind our backs.

The moderator needs to understand it's not just high level clans who don't like CVs. It's a ton of the community who play CBs, ranked and randoms.

It was brought up that lower level clans will likely still play CBs in T6 with CVs. There are plenty of Storm level clans who don't like CVs. I personally don't see how they can stop people from playing, especially in these early days and with not having any kind of unified agenda yet.

These guys also said they would be amenable to playing some CB seasons with CVs if other seasons were without and with WG hypothetically announcing four seasons in a coming year. But, as we all know, WG is horrific at providing notice or a calendar, so that's just a pipe dream.

I've been on the boycott server, and it's a jumbled mess at the moment. This will take a lot more time to play out. I just don't think at this point they can get anything close to a majority of people to not play, regardless of whether they have 2000 people on their server. It was brought up that lower level clans are hungry for steel to get steel ships. And there you go.

The way this all dies out is just with time and regular attrition seen in any game. This whole controversy may nudge some in that direction.

While yes some of the best ships at tier 6 are premiums, even free to play players can get access to those premiums through events or by saving doubloons they win to get a ship. And WG is allowing everyone to get Graf Spee right now for free, and that means all clans will be able to field it heavily. It will just be a matter of BBs, which Arizona is strong but slow and you could get New Mexico instead. Dunkerque might be CB option, but has its drawbacks. The P.E. Friedrich was an event ship for free couple Christmases ago, then was a return to playing incentive for a while later.

So really tier 6 is fair and balanced. Odds are that “Pay to win for tier 6 vs tier X” argument is likely Clans  not wanting something different. And tier X can actually be even more pay to win in CB than tier 6. Like there is the Puerto Rico, those highly expensive FXP ships, Steel is relatively fair but if you soent the moment to ensure you had every single tier X ship you could use them in Anniversary events and snow flake events to pad your steel reserves so even Steel ships might be a little pay to win as would coal ships, and there there are RB ships.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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So it's not the issues with AA being a mess that bother them, it's that the spotting from CVs breaks the precious vision-manipulation meta? 

 

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Everyone knows AA is a mess. That's a given. The spotting was referenced repeatedly.

CV really doesn't even belong in 12v12. But then they force it in 7v7 and 8v8? It makes the CV absolutely omniscient.

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

So it's not the issues with AA being a mess that bother them, it's that the spotting from CVs breaks the precious vision-manipulation meta? 

 

You're making fun but "vision-manipulation" is one of the core principles of this game and multiplayer games in general, isn't it?  Can you name one pvp video game in which both teams have easy access to knowing what the other team is doing on demand?  It takes all the tactical part of coordinated battles and throws it out the window.  No more surprise flanks.  No more feinting in one area then pushing in another.  No detacting ships from an initial push to strike from a new unexpected direction.  Just airplanes letting everybody know at all times what each side is doing.  It's not unbalanced because both sides can do it, but it is unfun.

Most of the people I've talked to seem to think that the power gap between CVs and targets is even worse at T6 than at T10.  There's not a lot of T6 ships with fearsome AA... so it's another season of carrier versus deathball.

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17 minutes ago, Brhinosaurus said:

You're making fun but "vision-manipulation" is one of the core principles of this game and multiplayer games in general, isn't it?  Can you name one pvp video game in which both teams have easy access to knowing what the other team is doing on demand?  It takes all the tactical part of coordinated battles and throws it out the window.  No more surprise flanks.  No more feinting in one area then pushing in another.  No detacting ships from an initial push to strike from a new unexpected direction.  Just airplanes letting everybody know at all times what each side is doing.  It's not unbalanced because both sides can do it, but it is unfun.

Most of the people I've talked to seem to think that the power gap between CVs and targets is even worse at T6 than at T10.  There's not a lot of T6 ships with fearsome AA... so it's another season of carrier versus deathball.

Yeah, I am poking fun of the whole "OMG you can't use that build you lose 0.2km of concealment!" nonsense, and the way you can see players in Randoms desperately trying to fit their ship into a fraction of a km of difference between vision range and weapon range. 

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20 minutes ago, Brhinosaurus said:

You're making fun but "vision-manipulation" is one of the core principles of this game and multiplayer games in general, isn't it?  Can you name one pvp video game in which both teams have easy access to knowing what the other team is doing on demand?  It takes all the tactical part of coordinated battles and throws it out the window.  No more surprise flanks.  No more feinting in one area then pushing in another.  No detacting ships from an initial push to strike from a new unexpected direction.  Just airplanes letting everybody know at all times what each side is doing.  It's not unbalanced because both sides can do it, but it is unfun.

Most of the people I've talked to seem to think that the power gap between CVs and targets is even worse at T6 than at T10.  There's not a lot of T6 ships with fearsome AA... so it's another season of carrier versus deathball.

Exactly.

The spotting issue will be worse, since the relative T6 AA strength and range to plane up is weaker compared to T10....or in other words the planes will be able to loiter around much longer.  I expect the frustration level of this season to reach an all time high.

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1 hour ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

I was trying to work simultaneously with trying to listen to this one, so I'm not sure I got it all.

The boycott is in its early days and is still basically not organized yet. I'm not so sure a boycott can even be carried out for various reasons.

The gist of this was:

  • These guys are in the top clans
  • They like T10 because they feel it is the most competitive
  • Their biggest issue is with CV spotting
  • They do not feel T6 is competitive and feel it is somewhat "pay to win"
  • They are not asking for removal of CVs from CBs (or at least one wasn't), but they want them paused and reworked as to spotting mechanics.

There was some pretty decent push back from the moderator about what these guys are seeking with the boycott and how they can get people to follow through on a boycott.

Apparently, WG stated CB participation was up 25% last season. Yikes. But Putin massages the law to get his way too, right? This as well as them controlling the game puts them in the driver's seat. Hence, the T6 season to pretend to placate the community while surely simultaneously laughing behind our backs.

The moderator needs to understand it's not just high level clans who don't like CVs. It's a ton of the community who play CBs, ranked and randoms.

It was brought up that lower level clans will likely still play CBs in T6 with CVs. There are plenty of Storm level clans who don't like CVs. I personally don't see how they can stop people from playing, especially in these early days and with not having any kind of unified agenda yet.

These guys also said they would be amenable to playing some CB seasons with CVs if other seasons were without and with WG hypothetically announcing four seasons in a coming year. But, as we all know, WG is horrific at providing notice or a calendar, so that's just a pipe dream.

I've been on the boycott server, and it's a jumbled mess at the moment. This will take a lot more time to play out. I just don't think at this point they can get anything close to a majority of people to not play, regardless of whether they have 2000 people on their server. It was brought up that lower level clans are hungry for steel to get steel ships. And there you go.

The way this all dies out is just with time and regular attrition seen in any game. This whole controversy may nudge some in that direction.

Thank you for the ongoing conversion into text. I’d much rather read.

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10 minutes ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Thank you for the ongoing conversion into text. I’d much rather read.

Indeed -- the comment "skip to 36 minutes in" pretty much killed any interest I had. 

 

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Indeed -- the comment "skip to 36 minutes in" pretty much killed any interest I had. 

 

Do you make all your decisions based on anonymous internet comments? 

The first part of the program is a discussion about the Shipstorm Tournament and the new league that's being created. The second part is a discussion with the leaders of the boycott. 

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Indeed -- the comment "skip to 36 minutes in" pretty much killed any interest I had. 

It's the nature of the format -- it's a recorded conversation and not structured in a way that's made to give you all of the relevant info in the least amount of time.   I watch informative videos typically at +50% speed, some even faster--- I've got a 0.0% chance of listening to anything like a podcast at default speed.  Being able to skip to the meat of a subject avoiding intros and what not has significantly altered the process in which I consume information -- blocking ads and scripts has also impacted it as well.  Ad block has a unique side effect in the way that it acts on pages so that one can remove entire elements from websites.  Very handy for increasing the ratio of relevant information presented on any given website. /tangent 

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8 hours ago, CV_Jeebies said:

It's the nature of the format -- it's a recorded conversation and not structured in a way that's made to give you all of the relevant info in the least amount of time.   I watch informative videos typically at +50% speed, some even faster--- I've got a 0.0% chance of listening to anything like a podcast at default speed.  Being able to skip to the meat of a subject avoiding intros and what not has significantly altered the process in which I consume information -- blocking ads and scripts has also impacted it as well.  Ad block has a unique side effect in the way that it acts on pages so that one can remove entire elements from websites.  Very handy for increasing the ratio of relevant information presented on any given website. /tangent 

I've found most of these video and audio formats spend 30-120 minutes presenting information that could be read in under 5 minutes from a text source. 

 

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15 hours ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Apparently, WG stated CB participation was up 25% last season

Even if we assume this is true, it can be easily explained by the covid epidemic.

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33 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Even if we assume this is true, it can be easily explained by the covid epidemic.

well, that's good news then as it gets worse even more will participate.

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This will never happen. As I stated in another thread these Purps must be Purps. The idea of them posting on this forum or showing up after each game with a silver or brown color next to their clan tag is inconceivable. It's what they live for.... the color purple. They may quit the game but they won't boycott a chance to flex purple power.

See the source image

 

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2 hours ago, vak_ said:

Even if we assume this is true, it can be easily explained by the covid epidemic.

Yes, but, as we all know, WG doesn't read stats with any context--they read stats in a vacuum.

Numbers up? CV must be good.

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1 hour ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

This will never happen. As I stated in another thread these Purps must be Purps. The idea of them posting on this forum or showing up after each game with a silver or brown color next to their clan tag is inconceivable. It's what they live for.... the color purple. They may quit the game but they won't boycott a chance to flex purple power.

See the source image

 

Listening to some of these "purple" guys they have interviewed, I have to say these characters are, um, "interesting."

Hearing them talk made me think twice about playing this game when this is what I'm playing against. Sort of disturbing.

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6 minutes ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Listening to some of these "purple" guys they have interviewed, I have to say these characters are, um, "interesting."

Hearing them talk made me think twice about playing this game when this is what I'm playing against. Sort of disturbing.

I understand. Completely.

It's why I am now watch @generaldort

on Twitch, I can at least understand where that guy is coming from.

 

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Being one of the "lower level clans" who had a lot of trouble when we were put up against a skilled CV player in clan wars, this change to T6 intrigued us. We were surprised at the change to T6 because by doing this WG is really agreeing that the balance is not there at T10. 

The huge difference at T6 is gun range and accuracy. There are no direct substituts for the Stalingrad and Venezia. If the same or similar large maps are used, there cannot be the long range snipe fest you saw at T10. The second huge difference is AA. No T6 ship can shred an air attack the way a DM or a Mino can. BB's do not have the AA to protect themselves. DD's will die unless protected. And the Ryujo is hands down the most powerful carrier at T6. How would this play out?

 We dis some work in the training room and tried some of these statements out. The takeaway was that the CV is even MORE powerful at T6 than a T10. And the skill level required to play the carrier was also much lower. Really?

We reached that conclusion because of the relative effectiveness of the AA between those two tiers. At T10, one mistake cost you your squadron. Many ships at T10 are simply impossible to approach. The cost is just too high. Those issues are not true a T6. Multiple attacks are possible against most single ships. The ships hit pools are lower, and their heals and protection less effective. Against an average to good CV player, a single isolated ship, even it's a  BB, is in trouble.

So we believe we are going to see more CV's at T6!   Is it a good or bad thing?   I guess we'll find out

Edited by mushmouthmorton

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2 hours ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Yes, but, as we all know, WG doesn't read stats with any context--they read stats in a vacuum.

Numbers up? CV must be good.

Unfortunately, it really seems so.

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20 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

While yes some of the best ships at tier 6 are premiums, even free to play players can get access to those premiums through events or by saving doubloons they win to get a ship. And WG is allowing everyone to get Graf Spee right now for free, and that means all clans will be able to field it heavily. It will just be a matter of BBs, which Arizona is strange but slow and you could get New Mexico instead. Dunkerque might be CB option, but has its drawbacks. The P.E. Friedrich was an event ship Afro free couple Christmases ago, then was a return to playing incentive for a while later.

So really tier 6 is fair and balanced. Odds are that “Pay to win for tier 6 vs tier X” argument is likely Clans  not wanting something different. And tier X can actually be even more pay to win in CB than tier 6. Like there is the Puerto Rico, those highly expensive FXP ships, Steel is relatively fair but if you soent the moment to ensure you had every single tier X ship you could use them in Anniversary events and snow flake events to pad your steel reserves so even Steel ships might be a little pay to win as would coal ships, and there there are RB ships.

This...I'm not entirely sure how tier 6 is Pay2Win. The two big hitters are Fuso and Arizona/New Mex with their massive broadside and long range. Then you've got the Warspite, Queen Elizabeth and Bayern for the 380mm club. In fact THE most powerful ship at tier 6 only would be the Ryujo which is entirely able to grind. I'm not sure where the pay2win arguments are coming from unless they mean like the Graf Spee is somehow pay2win despite having wonky accuracy. So yeah I think it's basically the clans going "but muh tier 10s!". Tier 10 is NOT well balanced, if it was you'd see ships like the Montana, the Currywurst etc. turning up in matches...but ya don't...it's always the SAME set of ships. The very same set of ships that every 'high tier' clan player already owns, Stalingrad, Kremlin and like 2 others...

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