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VII_Legion_Astartes

Improving... how do I become more PROACTIVE?

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So long story short, way back when... after excitedly looking forward to WoWs for a good year, I was fortunate to be selected for closed beta testing... Really enjoyed my time... alas when the reset came I was a bit burnt out and I guess I started being a bit too mechanical in grinding my way up lines to where I had been before.... 

 

About a year ago I quit warships... mostly how CV were intereacting with DD's.... I was probably sitting around 48.5% or so ... not very good... I started up again this spring and tried to focus on the game being more of a chess match than WoT. My biggest fault is often feeling like I have to force something, especially when my team isnt pushing caps or ceding map control. Often leads to an early death. Lately I've been enjoying the Agir, I feel like its a ship that can deal with many situations, and suits my mid -short range pushing style. I feel like with this ship... as long as you have plenty of cover, and your BB's are posing a threat, you can flank and often suprise larger ships, force them to turn away from torps and show broadside or ping my hydro and load HE in the 305's to deal with DD's.

 

I am trying to take LittleWhiteMouse's advice on improving to heart, taking responsibility over all parts of the battle, not relying on team mates to do the right thing ect...

 

I still find I'm too aggressive for my own good... I guess I am looking for someone who can explain the subtleties of when to push and when not to push... Most of the games lately are ok damage and a really good winrate ( at least for me) BUT A VERY LOW PERSONAL RATING. I am not sure how to read these stats since sometimes I'll get a purple winrate, and purple damage, yet an orange below average PR.

 

I especially find open maps harder, and game modes where controlling the centre of the map where the game play gets pretty static and trying to flank bow tanking HE spammers is very ineffective in this ship and in general to aggressive early flanking. Looking forward to the SIEGFRIED, since it will bring a few more flexible tools into the equation in a similar package. I think it will become my favourite ship....

 

I THINK THE BIG ISSUE is that I'm and too REACTIVE, and don't go deep enough into a match to be PROACTIVE AND PREDICTIVE of what the enemy will do... I've had a few games where I have done that... but I find its not easy to see those things in the heat of battle...

 

 

I could add replays but im not sure if this is the appropriate spot for that.

 

https://na.wows-numbers.com/player/1006133155,VII_Legion_Astartes/progress/?type=solo

 

Are these colours properly calibrated ?

Screenshot (2223).png

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definitely being more passive is a simple method for improving win rates from an average level as alot of people tend to rush to cap or over extend to early and lose too much hp, you cant make a game winning impact if you are dead or too low hp.

you have a good platform to start improving on, you just need the right helping hands.

you are more then welcome to join the o7 discord and abuse our advice channel for help we generally have people on 24/7 able to help not just from the o7 community but alot of top players across all servers use our discord that can provide very good advice and not just 1 type of advice there can be multiple different opinions of which you can choose.

https://discord.gg/Dj9Buk

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I'll be interested to see what sort of responses you get.  I tend exactly the opposite - I tend to play conservatively by nature, and tend not to recognize that moment when it's time to push till way too late.  Oddly, my stats are sort of the reverse of yours - better PR, but lower win rate.  My recents look more like PR near but not quite purple  and win rate miserably red.  Right now, I'm just blaming the win rate on a streak of bad luck, since my overall is still comfortably above 50%. 

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I’m starting to think that PR also correlates to how long you survive and keep contributing to battle... my pattern is identifying a flanking or rushing opportunity and being able to knock out 1-2 ships , scatter enemy in area, grab a cap, rack up damage in a short period of time , but then die due to lack of support, or late support. Fortunately, I think I’m getting better at this, as I’m timing it in such a way as to helping tip the balance over in our favour in such a way that the red team often can’t recover... I think the key for  me is finding that balance in such a way that I can still flank with surprise and shock, but feather that aggression so that my teammates see that the strategy is working and they push in to support before the rest of the reds react to me and focus me down.

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1 minute ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

I’m starting to think that PR also correlates to how long you survive and keep contributing to battle... my pattern is identifying a flanking or rushing opportunity and being able to knock out 1-2 ships , scatter enemy in area, grab a cap, rack up damage in a short period of time , but then die due to lack of support, or late support. Fortunately, I think I’m getting better at this, as I’m timing it in such a way as to helping tip the balance over in our favour in such a way that the red team often can’t recover... I think the key for  me is finding that balance in such a way that I can still flank with surprise and shock, but feather that aggression so that my teammates see that the strategy is working and they push in to support before the rest of the reds react to me and focus me down.

One of the biggest things all captains struggle with, even ones with thousands of battles, is knowing when to initiate a push, and when to retreat. Sometimes you have only seconds to decide, and those seconds matter. If you’re playing Aegir, you’re playing at a tier where that decision doesn’t just cost you hp, it will cost you your ship. I’m unfamiliar with how Aegir plays, but if it plays like Alaska and Hindenburg, I would suggest holding off on pushing until the guns start to dwindle. Set fires, let the enemy make mistakes.

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One of the best parts (and perhaps, for some, worst part) of WOWS is the "Random" factor.  Not RNG random, but the players around you.  A position that screams push, but in the presence of a team that can't see it, is perhaps more of a wait and see.  A position that screams wait/hold, in the presence of a yoloing gaggle, is perhaps a push.  The key point here is the OPTIMAL action in terms of game state (be it fleet position, cap/point advantage, ship advantage) might not be optimal based on fleet actions.  Sometimes, you gotta go sub-optimal in terms of game state in order to achieve optimal in terms of fleet actions.  It is figuring this out that is as important, if not more important, than pew pew or one's overall strategic/tactical acumen of situations (absent the Random personnel part).

A captain can sometimes get the team to do something.  For example, pushing up in a BB can often bring support with you.  But be careful...it's important that the push is valid, and that you're not leading your support to a bad situation.  Also, be careful if the support does not materialize.  One can never assume support is there in Random (divisions of known players excepted sometimes), and should always have an out when support does not materialize.

Basically, players must learn to play the players (red and green) as much as they play the game.  Because one's ability to influence the team in a positive way is often the ultimate force multiplier.  If you can influence the bulk of the team to do the right thing, where your absence would have left them stagnate, that alone can be enough to win the game.  You might even wind up in the middle of the pack XP wise, but your bold move and the snowball effect it can have won the day.  Others might not know it.  Others might not recognize it.  But it happens. 

Lastly, one big point.  If one is getting focused and killed early, EVEN IF THEIR MOVE IS CORRECT STRATEGICALLY (if the team had understood and acted accordingly) becomes a strategic FAILURE if the team does not understand and act accordingly.  You can be completely correct in what should have been done.  To pursue the best collective strategy without the collective...is...well...not the best strategy.

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9 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

I still find I'm too aggressive for my own good... I guess I am looking for someone who can explain the subtleties of when to push and when not to push...

If you have a doubt, don't push. Especially at high tiers, you'll be quickly punished for overextending (either from torps since you overshot your screeners, planes since they don't have to fly over AA to get to you, or guns since you're missing cover/angles).

You should push when you have the advantage. Generally, I mean plural you. When your flank outnumbers the enemy, when their guns are facing away from you, when pushing will force them to turn and expose their squishy sides, when your ships/play outmatch theirs, when you will keep some stealthy ship spotted.

You should kite when you don't have the advantage. When you are outnumbered. When they have cover and you don't. When your ranged accuracy is superior to theirs. When you out-conceal them and need options. When they will expose themselves to fire/torps if they chase you. When you can get powerful enemies wasting time and shots doing little damage to you.

 

9 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

I THINK THE BIG ISSUE is that I'm and too REACTIVE, and don't go deep enough into a match to be PROACTIVE AND PREDICTIVE of what the enemy will do...

That's okay to start with. Doing your own thing regardless of what the enemy is doing will get you a quick death.

The biggest thing here is the minimap. Where are the reds? Where are the greens? 

Knowing when to push or not depends just as much on your allies as the enemy. Who else is on your flank? Are they full health or nearly dead? Are they fast or slow? Are they brawler ships or snipers? Do you think they're good enough to push with you?

9 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

Lately I've been enjoying the Agir, I feel like its a ship that can deal with many situations, and suits my mid -short range pushing style. I feel like with this ship... as long as you have plenty of cover, and your BB's are posing a threat, you can flank and often suprise larger ships, force them to turn away from torps and show broadside or ping my hydro and load HE in the 305's to deal with DD's.

If you're using your torps in Agir, you're almost certainly playing her wrong. They're a weapon of last resort. Useful maybe if you snuck up on some BB parked behind a rock. Even then, you're likely to take a beating from any BB within 6km before they die. And you're a lot more likely to never get there, because people see you coming and focus you. The Agir is hard to citadel, but she's easy to damage. Focused fire will quickly end your game. Personally, I've found her much more effective using HE at distance with her highly accurate guns.

9 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

Are these colours properly calibrated ?

Yes?

Two things jump out at me with those stats:

  1. 51k damage is low for tier 8.4. The purple includes other tiers. The NA server average for the Agir (at time of writing) is 66,792. If you're doing 25% less damage than the average, your personal rating should be well below average - all else being equal. And since the thing has ~62k HP,  you're doing less damage than you're taking - effectively a burden to your team.
  2. The 27% survival rate despite 68% wins. That is... astoundingly bad. Combined with 0.55 K/D, you usually aren't even taking anyone with you when you die. That's also contributing to your damage output, since dead ships fire no shells. An effective push is one where you steamroll an enemy, not one where you trade.

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10 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

 

I still find I'm too aggressive for my own good... I guess I am looking for someone who can explain the subtleties of when to push and when not to push... Most of the games lately are ok damage and a really good winrate ( at least for me) BUT A VERY LOW PERSONAL RATING. I am not sure how to read these stats since sometimes I'll get a purple winrate, and purple damage, yet an orange below average PR.

Hi mate, the main issue with your PR is frags. You kill few ships per match and that´s tanking your PR, kill 2+ ships per match on avg and you are on purplish zone. 

10 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

I especially find open maps harder, and game modes where controlling the centre of the map where the game play gets pretty static and trying to flank bow tanking HE spammers is very ineffective in this ship and in general to aggressive early flanking. Looking forward to the SIEGFRIED, since it will bring a few more flexible tools into the equation in a similar package. I think it will become my favourite ship....

Indeed Open maps are harder for playing cruisers, some specific lines are good long range open water gunboats, some don't. I've no specific experience in the ships you mention but as a general rule I find German CAs to be durable jack of all trades, so they have no very specific niche to play them. I find that very nice because it gives you flexibility to adapt and choose the type of engagement more convenient to you. For me playing the german guys is about being opportunistic, and adapting to the enemy roster and the deployment. Instead on focusing on my ships strengths, I tend to play against the enemy´s weaknesses. For example, if they have a strong component of long range snipers, I try to crawl forward using hard cover and take control of the map, once you are entrenched in a good position on their side, they will have a very hard time trying to dislodge you from there. Being the Iron Fist you probably are, I think German CAs are indeed right on your alley.

Btw, nice shirt!

 

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5 hours ago, VII_Legion_Astartes said:

I’m starting to think that PR also correlates to how long you survive and keep contributing to battle

Absolutely yes.  When you're dead, you can't contribute anything - either to your team or your PR.  So, one way to improve your overall game play is to work on staying alive longer.  In cruisers (I play ONLY cruisers), this almost always means NOT pushing into a cap early in the game.  You generally have a couple functions in the early game.  One is to find a spot where they can't see you, then rain fury down on the reds.  The second is killing those pesky red DDs.  And, occasionally, providing some AA support to nearby friendlies.  Early in the game, if you're in a cruiser and you are using your torps, something has gone wrong.  And if your secondaries are popping, things have REALLY gone wrong.

Later in the game, all that can change.  But even then, it's pretty rare to see a cruiser in a cap circle, if there are any reds within range.

All that said, there are of course some times when you need to be recklessly aggressive.  But even then, you need to sell your life as dearly as possible.

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6 hours ago, Midshipman_Hornblower said:

I'll be interested to see what sort of responses you get.  I tend exactly the opposite - I tend to play conservatively by nature, and tend not to recognize that moment when it's time to push till way too late.  Oddly, my stats are sort of the reverse of yours - better PR, but lower win rate.  My recents look more like PR near but not quite purple  and win rate miserably red.  Right now, I'm just blaming the win rate on a streak of bad luck, since my overall is still comfortably above 50%. 

you cant be too much passive neither active. in fact you must follow the fleet or lead the fleet all together.

winning teams sail altogether.

 

IMO dd must cap and look for oportunities as they are fragile. You cannot be exposed or you will die. you must sneak as much as you can.

cl or ca never broadside to a bb. you must run all the ground, move move and move and do not allow a bb to focus you.  Is the most versatile class, you can kill anything but bb are a treat.

cv gives support and help on landing attacks or make opponent move the way your team needs. you can talk to others from your vision of mini map and warn about not good engagements.

 

bb the main class, the class to kill everything. raw power, but cannot work alone... a nelting cl can kill you... a torpedoe strikenis devastating. other ships may escort you. 

 

so i think the best way is to work with your team. All have vulnerablities . none can work alone for long.

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3 minutes ago, Felipe_1982 said:

winning teams sail altogether.

Usually they push together. Sailing all together isnt a great idea. Makes it easier for intelligent enemies. Pushing together though requires coordination; which usually requires either comms/voice comms or very observant players. 

The weak point of the phalanx is it's flank. When you all sail together, you are like a phalanx. Smart players just setup crossfires.

Edited by Rollingonit

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13 minutes ago, Rollingonit said:

Usually they push together. Sailing all together isnt a great idea. Makes it easier for intelligent enemies. Pushing together though requires coordination; which usually requires either comms/voice comms or very observant players. 

The weak point of the phalanx is it's flank. When you all sail together, you are like a phalanx. Smart players just setup crossfires.

i almost never see that... just if team goes to A and C, and usually one side crumble..

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Instinct, is the word you are looking for.

I harp on how important the mini-map is and how it is one of the most underutilized but probably the single most important tool in the game. It tells you everything going on.

Next is overhead map. When its open you get a top-down "Chess" type view of what is going on. Torps actual directions, gunfire direction and who is heading where.

Those two tools will give you a great insight in to what is going to unfold. You can then adjust your play. More often than not you build up a "Instinct" on each map to as to where ships will go. After 3 minutes with instinct and paying attention to those maps you will be able to position yourself in to Shoot, run or hide. You need to always have an escape plan an encouragement plan.

Now attacking is easy so you think, but the instinct and the two maps will help hide your attack position if you have an idea where anything is that can shoot you. I often get off multiple shots from dark before im detected, when detected pop the overhead and see where is most likely spot to be detected. Launch denial torps and evade till undetected (instinct) again with those torps will ofeten give you a kill or at least dissuade the follower.

I use to be very aggressive and in past meta's is worked, now its becoming so passive in game play and or bunching up player I have found being more Patient is more beneficial. But the same old Instinct is there. Knowing maps and what people will now do in the meta then just verify on the maps.

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19 minutes ago, Felipe_1982 said:

winning teams sail altogether.

If I am in a dd and you do that I will be more happy than a 16  18 year old boy on the sunset strip in the 80s and I was very very happy in those days.

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13 minutes ago, Felipe_1982 said:

i almost never see that... just if team goes to A and C, and usually one side crumble..

I see it often enough, usually though Im the one setting it up. You'll see experienced players do it. I think @Ducky_shot, once made a brief tutorial on it. I know flamu and ichase have videos demonstrating it. 

edit: you see it all the time in KOTS matches, and Id assume it's a tactic used in clan battles. 

Edited by Rollingonit

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25 minutes ago, Rollingonit said:

I see it often enough, usually though Im the one setting it up. You'll see experienced players do it. I think @Ducky_shot, once made a brief tutorial on it. I know flamu and ichase have videos demonstrating it. 

edit: you see it all the time in KOTS matches, and Id assume it's a tactic used in clan battles. 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/194505-how-to-play-a-flank-andor-kite/

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12 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

One of the best parts (and perhaps, for some, worst part) of WOWS is the "Random" factor.  Not RNG random, but the players around you.  A position that screams push, but in the presence of a team that can't see it, is perhaps more of a wait and see.  A position that screams wait/hold, in the presence of a yoloing gaggle, is perhaps a push.  The key point here is the OPTIMAL action in terms of game state (be it fleet position, cap/point advantage, ship advantage) might not be optimal based on fleet actions.  Sometimes, you gotta go sub-optimal in terms of game state in order to achieve optimal in terms of fleet actions.  It is figuring this out that is as important, if not more important, than pew pew or one's overall strategic/tactical acumen of situations (absent the Random personnel part).

A captain can sometimes get the team to do something.  For example, pushing up in a BB can often bring support with you.  But be careful...it's important that the push is valid, and that you're not leading your support to a bad situation.  Also, be careful if the support does not materialize.  One can never assume support is there in Random (divisions of known players excepted sometimes), and should always have an out when support does not materialize.

Basically, players must learn to play the players (red and green) as much as they play the game.  Because one's ability to influence the team in a positive way is often the ultimate force multiplier.  If you can influence the bulk of the team to do the right thing, where your absence would have left them stagnate, that alone can be enough to win the game.  You might even wind up in the middle of the pack XP wise, but your bold move and the snowball effect it can have won the day.  Others might not know it.  Others might not recognize it.  But it happens. 

Lastly, one big point.  If one is getting focused and killed early, EVEN IF THEIR MOVE IS CORRECT STRATEGICALLY (if the team had understood and acted accordingly) becomes a strategic FAILURE if the team does not understand and act accordingly.  You can be completely correct in what should have been done.  To pursue the best collective strategy without the collective...is...well...not the best strategy.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Mustangrde1 said:

Instinct, is the word you are looking for.

I harp on how important the mini-map is and how it is one of the most underutilized but probably the single most important tool in the game. It tells you everything going on.

Next is overhead map. When its open you get a top-down "Chess" type view of what is going on. Torps actual directions, gunfire direction and who is heading where.

Those two tools will give you a great insight in to what is going to unfold. You can then adjust your play. More often than not you build up a "Instinct" on each map to as to where ships will go. After 3 minutes with instinct and paying attention to those maps you will be able to position yourself in to Shoot, run or hide. You need to always have an escape plan an encouragement plan.

Now attacking is easy so you think, but the instinct and the two maps will help hide your attack position if you have an idea where anything is that can shoot you. I often get off multiple shots from dark before im detected, when detected pop the overhead and see where is most likely spot to be detected. Launch denial torps and evade till undetected (instinct) again with those torps will ofeten give you a kill or at least dissuade the follower.

I use to be very aggressive and in past meta's is worked, now its becoming so passive in game play and or bunching up player I have found being more Patient is more beneficial. But the same old Instinct is there. Knowing maps and what people will now do in the meta then just verify on the maps.

 

 Sorry guys I just spent 20 minutes typing up a long measured response to all the advice and somehow the only thing that got submitted was the quotations .

 

First I wanna thank everyone for their responses as this discussion has been really beneficial.

 

 I quoted these two posts because they hit the crux of my issue.  So far I’ve been dabbling in the use of correct instincts.

 

I have to continue to refine it so that I am able to take ownership of all parts of the game, the map the lineup any new players and teammates.

 

Wow I have developed a good instinct for identifying a weakness in the enemy line and often able to make a big impact on a fulcrum point of the battle, I need to work on constantly assessing Whether that flanking move or push will be taken advantage of by my teammates, and if not always have an exit strategy planned.

 Team seem to be a lot more passive these days and I can’t take for granted that teammates or reds will behave and expected ways.

 

 That being said I do wish there was some form of XVM that was functional in the game that would allow a quicker evaluation of what I can predict teammates and opponents will do . Are use Aslains Mod pack and so far I’ve never been able to get potato alert or matchmaking want to get to work.

 

 Again, really appreciate all the discussion so far it’s really helping me approach the game is more of a chess player than checkers .

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One more small, but sometimes important thing.  Use the Comm Rose to tell a friendly you're supporting them (i.e., "All stations, support that target").  It's more that telling the team to give support.  It let's that player know that YOU are supporting them.  When I plan on pushing up with a DD that's running toward a cap, I'll often use this approach.  They know others may (or may not) support, but at least they know that I will be supporting...and anyone that affirms the support.

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3 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

One more small, but sometimes important thing.  Use the Comm Rose to tell a friendly you're supporting them (i.e., "All stations, support that target").  It's more that telling the team to give support.  It let's that player know that YOU are supporting them.  When I plan on pushing up with a DD that's running toward a cap, I'll often use this approach.  They know others may (or may not) support, but at least they know that I will be supporting...and anyone that affirms the support.

Yes i hotkey the Comm Rose, and always announce I'm supporting the pushing destroyer, and try to use it to ask for support from say, a BB that has X shots onto a BB that is angling on my group , but presenting them a broadside.

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Also, would this be an appropriate place to post replays for critique ?

 

I'd like to post some where I screw up bad, some where I do well by the team effort but low damage and kills, and maybe a couple great games  ( for me ) that may still show mistakes I am making that could be identified and pointed out...

 

Also I thought I had already asked this, but I cant find it in forums search...

 

from what I understand, if I Blacklist someone in game, there should be a little icon that shows up on the loading team roster correct? Is there a setting I have to enable or should it just show up? Can someone show me what its supposed to look like?  I can't find it anywhere 

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