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Panzer__Monkey

Help for Destroyers (they need a buff)

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Due to......

1. Proliferation of radar spotting DDs

2. CVs spotting DDs with near impunity

3. CAs and BBs who don;t push up and cover DDs from the radar ships.

..... how do we help make DDs relevant again?

 

Suggestions.....

1. Make DD smoke block radar?

2. Should all radar be nerfed?

3. Make the spotting range “by air” of DDs far shorter than it is now?

4. reduce the spotting range of DD launched torpedoes since that is all they have left going for them anymore?

5. Or are DDs so irrelvant now that there is no point in playing them anymore?

 

I used to love playing DDs but now it just sucks. You get no support from all the whiners who expect you to spot then let you die. You get consta-spotted by radar and CVs. And especially if you are IJN your torps get spotted 50 miles away even though their real torpedoes left no bubble trail in real life.

Edited by Panzer_Monkey_71
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Should post this in the dedicated suggestions area m8.

  • Eh don't think smoke would actually block a radar, but maybe just let radar show a DD on the minimap.
  • Cut down CV-DD interaction (maybe they're trying this with the new German CV line, with the AP rockets)
  • Something needs to be done with radar.
  • Disagree with spotting range of torps
  • Was teching up to the daring but radar has made me re-think that. And the CVs in their current state.

I don't think the IJN tier X rockets do that much, at least relative to the midway. Midway rockets, at least the tiny tims, should get a damage reduction on DDs. 

Edited by Merc_R_Us

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There really isn't anymore radar than there ever has. Right now there is a new line with radar so you see a little more but it is always like that with new lines. The last 2 cruiser lines had no radar. Cvs don't automatically spot DDs. Most have a air detection of 2 or 3 km. How close do you want them to get? Radar is fine and smoke shouldn't block it. Torpedoes don't need to be more stealthy. In randoms play for yourself, everyone else is. Focus on staying alive and ignore others telling you to cap. I play DDs all the time and they are fine.

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5 minutes ago, Admiral_Andy said:

Focus on staying alive and ignore others telling you to cap. I play DDs all the time and they are fine.

This.  

DDs are still relevant,  they just need to adapt. 

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23 minutes ago, Panzer_Monkey_71 said:

Suggestions.....

1. Make DD smoke block radar?

2. Should all radar be nerfed?

3. Make the spotting range “by air” of DDs far shorter than it is now?

4. reduce the spotting range of DD launched torpedoes since that is all they have left going for them anymore?

5. Or are DDs so irrelvant now that there is no point in playing them anymore?

#1 No 

#2 Maybe agree but to what extent???

#3 Hell no. 50 foot plane out spotted by how many feet of ship.

#4 This should happen sine there is now a Module for ships giving assured Torpedo Spotting.

#5 Only Class of Ships I really play. Say about 80% of all games played for the last 9 months.

 

 

Frosty

Edited by KAAOS_Frosty
Didn't mean to post so fast

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46 minutes ago, Panzer_Monkey_71 said:

Due to......

1. Proliferation of radar spotting DDs

2. CVs spotting DDs with near impunity

3. CAs and BBs who don;t push up and cover DDs from the radar ships.

..... how do we help make DDs relevant again?

 

Suggestions.....

1. Make DD smoke block radar?

2. Should all radar be nerfed?

3. Make the spotting range “by air” of DDs far shorter than it is now?

4. reduce the spotting range of DD launched torpedoes since that is all they have left going for them anymore?

5. Or are DDs so irrelvant now that there is no point in playing them anymore?

 

I used to love playing DDs but now it just sucks. You get no support from all the whiners who expect you to spot then let you die. You get consta-spotted by radar and CVs. And especially if you are IJN your torps get spotted 50 miles away even though their real torpedoes left no bubble trail in real life.

IMO DDs, CA/CLs and BBs are pretty well balanced.

CVs are the majority of the problem for DDs (and the game in general) not radar. Radar can generally be countered and it is not long lasting though it is a problem when there are multiple radar ships.

I suspect if WG had confronted the OWSF issue earlier on the necessity for radar may not have occurred but that’s pure speculation on my part.

CVs are still not in a good place and probably never will be.

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The main issue is the whole spotting mechanic. A ship that is shooting at some thing that another is spotting for him should have a greatly reduced accuracy. Ships that sit in smoke or behind islands that have no direct line of sight, should have their accuracy decreased. If you can't see it, why should your accuracy be the same as if you do. This would fix both the aircraft spotting issue and radar spotting. Would help all low HP ships last longer. To what extent the accuracy be reduced, that's for hot debate and testing to find.

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1 hour ago, Panzer_Monkey_71 said:

Due to......

1. Proliferation of radar spotting DDs

2. CVs spotting DDs with near impunity

3. CAs and BBs who don;t push up and cover DDs from the radar ships.

..... how do we help make DDs relevant again?

1. Not an issue. At all.

2. Yes, annoying I agree. However WG have said they are not going to do any more about it, at least not for a while. So we have to just accept it will be a pain in the [edited].

3. That's just the level of quality of the player base. That won't change.

1 hour ago, Panzer_Monkey_71 said:

Suggestions.....

1. Make DD smoke block radar?

2. Should all radar be nerfed?

3. Make the spotting range “by air” of DDs far shorter than it is now?

4. reduce the spotting range of DD launched torpedoes since that is all they have left going for them anymore?

5. Or are DDs so irrelvant now that there is no point in playing them anymore?

1. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr like, I know it's an arcade game.... but lets not ignore all science and physics.

2. They have been universally standardised. And already have a spotting delay. That's all that was needed. 

3. See previous comment on WG and CV stuff.

4. No, then you'll create even more passive BB and cruiser play which you're already highlighting as an issue. And frankly it's also not needed.

5. Not even close. DD's have never been MORE relevant. 

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DDs don't need a buff, they just need CVs removed. New reworked CVs are killing this game.

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According to a member of WG staff:

"...at this point, DD play is pretty balanced, you can't just pop into a DD go yolo and expect good results..."

This inadequately thought-out statement tells you everything you need to know about what WG thinks.

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1 hour ago, KAAOS_Frosty said:

4 This should happen sine there is now a Module for ships giving assured Torpedo Spotting.

Except anyone taking TPS are only taking it because they are the straight liners that end up in dev strike compilations because they have no awareness at all. Plus the two best torpboats in the game currently (Halland and Shima) have 1.8km torp detection, so they are completely unaffected by that upgrade

TPS is probably the worst upgrade you can put on any ship in the game (except from AA upgrades)

Edited by tfcas119

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one of the biggest and easiest changes to cv is to remove plane detected indicator, by doing this it will free up dd so much as planes will not have some garbage concealment circle to know there is a ship within their conceal range.

i cannot think of any reason for planes to have a detection indicator other then to grief stealthy dd

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1 hour ago, Kuckoo said:

According to a member of WG staff:

"...at this point, DD play is pretty balanced, you can't just pop into a DD go yolo and expect good results..."

This inadequately thought-out statement tells you everything you need to know about what WG thinks.

Replace "DD" with "BB" or "CA" or "CL" and you have an accurate statement.  What makes having "DD" in that sentence disingenous?

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17 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

one of the biggest and easiest changes to cv is to remove plane detected indicator, by doing this it will free up dd so much as planes will not have some garbage concealment circle to know there is a ship within their conceal range.

i cannot think of any reason for planes to have a detection indicator other then to grief stealthy dd

This would be a good place to test.  I know a lot of CV players are able to hunt DD's not because the aircraft can see the DD, but because the DD can see the aircraft.  I've gotten a lot of "boggled" responses from making that statement, but it's the truth. 

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18 minutes ago, Ranari said:

This would be a good place to test.  I know a lot of CV players are able to hunt DD's not because the aircraft can see the DD, but because the DD can see the aircraft.  I've gotten a lot of "boggled" responses from making that statement, but it's the truth. 

Could you explain this a little? I play CV but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

 

I do feel strongly that the proliferation of radar with the Russian cruisers has made the game pretty uncomfortable for most destroyers players. Why not consider nerfing radar so that:

1. It can't show behind mountains (hydro might be okay in this regard considering its defensive nature, testing might be required)

2. At least for Russians, that longer range radar should only provide spotting for the individual ships. Other players would see the radared targets only on the minimap similar to what you would see in a cyclone.

What balances American radar (all frankly imo) is that even towards the higher end of the 10km range, American shells are rather floaty. A keen, maneuverable DD might be able to get away from it. Americans would need to rely moreso on their teammates to deal damage considering their lackluster gun performance, hence the extended duration.

With Russian radar, their guns are high velocity and accurate within the entire 12km. In all honesty, they are railguns. This makes it almost impossible for the DD to escape in one piece if the cruiser captain knows how and where to aim. Why does it matter if they have a slightly longer reload than US cruisers if they are landing every shell?

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1 hour ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

Could you explain this a little? I play CV but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

When your Flying and see the word "Detected". And yet you see no ship. But you know one is around and what do you find after a brief search? A DD more times than not.

 

1 hour ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

I do feel strongly that the proliferation of radar with the Russian cruisers has made the game pretty uncomfortable for most destroyers players. Why not consider nerfing radar so that:

1. It can't show behind mountains (hydro might be okay in this regard considering its defensive nature, testing might be required)

Hydro does the same thing as Radar. And is better in many ways. Granted the ship detection is shorter but has the ability to spot torps as well. As far as land masses being in the way I would support that. 

 

1 hour ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

2. At least for Russians, that longer range radar should only provide spotting for the individual ships. Other players would see the radared targets only on the minimap similar to what you would see in a cyclone

The longer range also has the shortest duration.

 

 

 

Frosty

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3 hours ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

DDs don't need a buff, they just need CVs removed. New reworked CVs are killing this game.

WG's expansion of them indicates otherwise

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21 hours ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

Could you explain this a little? I play CV but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

When you're flying around and suddenly your planes show detected, but you look around and don't see anything, it's more often than not a destroyer nearby. Could be a cruiser, too, but cruisers are usually firing non-stop and you see them long before you're detected. 

This is less of an issue for DDs when there are multiple ships around. Any competent DD can easily hide amongst other ships and the CV player will never know. I know because I've done that MANY times purposefully withholding my AA fire to prevent the CV from knowing my general location. But out in the open ocean, it makes for a quickly found DD that is easy pickings. This pretty much negates the effectiveness of that destroyer meta where you slip behind enemy lines, fling torpedoes, and provide non-stop spotting for your team. CVs are a direct counter to that meta and it's the players who cling to this strategy that tend to have the most gripe with CVs. 

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Understood. I do often use that to find DDs. It does seem to hurt those who still want to lone-wolf it behind enemy lines.

 

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The last thing that we need are DD buffs, especially at tier VIII+.

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Personally I believe the problem are not CVs but the spotting mechanics and the lackluster AA.

If you ever play a tier IV DD lately (I had to in the regrind of the US destroyers) you will notice that a fighter drop on top of you is impervious to your AA. I had several times when a fighter was drop on top of my smoke and it lasted all the duration of my smoke.

Give ships a more reliable AA and much of the concerns will be solved.

Also some kind of spotting change needs to be make. The proposed show only in minimap seems good. Or at least some kind of penalty on accuracy on relayed targets.

 

 

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I do fine against radar. The only radar they need to fix is Nevsky radar with it's spotting but its in a weird place where, yes you can spot it ahead of time but the distance it can close which is barely below 1km is very easy to do in Nevsky. The issue I see with it vs other cruisers is moskva to compensate for the good shell ballistics with radar has a retarded spotting range while DM and Worcester have slow american shells which balance it with also the spotting window of the ships balancing it as well. Other than that, I find the average dd player is too reliant on rushing in versus thinking about map positioning and game sense. By now most people should know the obvious spots DM and moskva etc should be at. As for the rest, people should realize to scout the cap out first then react. But thats what separates the average dd player sadly. 

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On 6/28/2020 at 11:21 AM, Panzer_Monkey_71 said:

3. Make the spotting range “by air” of DDs far shorter than it is now?

A lot of exaggeration and nonsense but #3 is an idea that has merit and gets thrown around a lot. I think a minor adjustment either has been made or is forthcoming but it should be cut 30% across the board in my opinion. Also, I think specific spotting ( visual not minimap ) info should only be shared with ships who are within a fairly limited range of the sighting.

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DD's DO NOT need Buffs!

What is needed is a radar balance 9.1k for t-9 and 10..... T6 to 8 8.5k FOR ALL NATIONS
Rockets need to be removed

But in truth there is a lot of things needing to be adjusted to correct power-creep. Plenty of threads and good ideas from people who post here but this forum is tiny in compare to the community size.
 

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32 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

A lot of exaggeration and nonsense but #3 is an idea that has merit and gets thrown around a lot. I think a minor adjustment either has been made or is forthcoming but it should be cut 30% across the board in my opinion. Also, I think specific spotting ( visual not minimap ) info should only be shared with ships who are within a fairly limited range of the sighting.

Oh man I like this as an idea to try.   I am being very selfish here as the one and only reason why I have been laying off of the CV hate train lately is because of the Halland.  And god dammit I think 30% reduction (while i personally wouldn't mind it might be a bit too much.  For example Kagero and Asashio sit at 2.5km  Take 30% from that and your at 1.8km. With the rediculous speeds planes move at (due to distances only being 1/5th of actual) it might  be to short of a window to actually shoot at them with rockets.   So at least those with an already low detection range should maybe not get the full 30%. 

 

I do like the idea Ace mentioned of removing the plane spotted marker. 

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