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IgnisFatuus

Friendly Torps !!!

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A message for torpedo warning should be added to the standard messages dial. It simplifies team communication and it can make the target player more clear where the torps are coming from and what to do. 
 IDK guys, seems to me it could save a good chunk of team damage.

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If your torps are able to hit allies, they were not a good launch. Once those torps are in the water, they are nobody's friend.

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5 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

A message for torpedo warning should be added to the standard messages dial. It simplifies team communication and it can make the target player more clear where the torps are coming from and what to do. 
 IDK guys, seems to me it could save a good chunk of team damage.

Alerting your team mates that you have launched torpedoes in their direction is not the best way to "save a good chunk of team damage".

The best way to do that is to NOT launch torpedoes in the direction of your team mates.

What message in the dial would you replace for this?  Those messages are also linked to F-keys, so there are a limited number there can be.

Edited by desmo_2
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On 6/26/2020 at 11:46 PM, IgnisFatuus said:

A message for torpedo warning should be added to the standard messages dial. It simplifies team communication and it can make the target player more clear where the torps are coming from and what to do. 
 IDK guys, seems to me it could save a good chunk of team damage.

That doesn't solve the problem of launching torpedoes from behind your teammates.

So now I know they are coming.  You've still created a situation in which my maneuvers are restricted by your torpedoes.  If I have to turn away I may not be able to, or I may be forced to turn in towards the enemy and into an inescapable situation.

Don't do this.  You don't know the tactical situation of the other players on your team.

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On 6/27/2020 at 3:29 AM, Shoggoth_pinup said:

If your torps are able to hit allies, they were not a good launch. Once those torps are in the water, they are nobody's friend.

The whole idea is for them to know where are you dropping torps with ease and to be able to maneuver accordingly. If you have ever played any of the long range torps capable ships you would have noted that plenty of times you have to desist from engaging an enemy due to a teammate that wont clear the path or even suicidally push into the line of fire. There are plenty of time when this is valid and also a big other set of wrong drops as you have mentioned, the idea is to reduce the effect against one-selves team due to either case.

On 6/27/2020 at 7:46 AM, desmo_2 said:

Alerting your team mates that you have launched torpedoes in their direction is not the best way to "save a good chunk of team damage".

The best way to do that is to NOT launch torpedoes in the direction of your team mates.

What message in the dial would you replace for this?  Those messages are also linked to F-keys, so there are a limited number there can be.

Well, they might be maneuvering or even distracted from the fact that there is a whole team besides them playing in battle. It is not a rarity or impossible to have a team member suddenly changing direction and running onto torps. 
Furthermore it is a good strat to send torps covered with your team path as it misleads the enemy to consider a route to be safe, sort of baiting them.
For your last point I am proud to introduce you to ALT, CTRL, SHIFT, ALT GR and family.

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9 minutes ago, IgnisFatuus said:

The whole idea is for them to know where are you dropping torps with ease and to be able to maneuver accordingly.

Why should they be forced to maneuver according to your wishes rather than their needs?  By launching those torpedoes you are taking tactical option off of their table, options they may need in order to keep their ship in the fight.

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3 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Why should they be forced to maneuver according to your wishes rather than their needs?  By launching those torpedoes you are taking tactical option off of their table, options they may need in order to keep their ship in the fight.

And let's not forget, even if you could, people turn these things off. So your ample warning may go on effectively deaf ears.

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9 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Why should they be forced to maneuver according to your wishes rather than their needs?  By launching those torpedoes you are taking tactical option off of their table, options they may need in order to keep their ship in the fight.

For that case you are being forced to not use your torpedo tactical advantage due to their own choices. It's all about having a more capable communication suite.

 

5 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

And let's not forget, even if you could, people turn these things off. So your ample warning may go on effectively deaf ears.

Well, if you are not into communicating with your team at any length there is not much to be done.

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When I'm fighting for my life, a warning would be good BUT then, I'd have to look who sent the message, where the torps were headed and avoid them, by that time the enemy... or the torps have sunk me.

I have had  few games where I was approaching the enemy and an ally fire torps  directly from behind me towards the enemy... that is NEVER a good idea. Worse, even if the torps won't hit me, I cannot taking avoiding action to avoid a thing like ramming the enemy... or the torps he has fired at me...

Just don't be a bad player and fire them anywhere near an ally.

If anything, in such cases, the penalty should be worse... these people only care about themselves, no one else and they are hardly team players.

NO respect for anyone that does that.... EVER!

Edited by kiwi1960
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It's true that in 90% of all team-torping, the person shooting the torps really should have known better, and the likelihood is that they were shot from behind a teammate, or into a brawl.

But that doesn't negate the fact that in about 10% or so of cases, the team torping is NOT at all the fault of the person shooting the torps.

Very long range torpedoes, particularly those not very fast, can be in the water an excessively long time. Plenty of time for a fast team mate to decide to sail into the area and get hit. Ships that were sailing in the completely opposite direction suddenly turn 180, and torps that you put in the water with no one even remotely in that area, suddenly become a danger. Or you're situated well in front of your team, but to the side, and some team mate decides to go from reversing to full ahead, charging 10km ahead and ending up closing the triangle to where your torps were headed.  Or even worse, the super-long-range torps can cover half the map, and end up in places that were completely clear or which there's no reasonable expectation on the launching person they could possibly hit anyone.

There ARE a distinct minority of places where being able to warn of "friendly" torps would be of great use. Clicking on the minimap and then being able to press F10 (or whatever) would indeed be nice. 

 

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8 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

It's true that in 90% of all team-torping, the person shooting the torps really should have known better, and the likelihood is that they were shot from behind a teammate, or into a brawl.

But that doesn't negate the fact that in about 10% or so of cases, the team torping is NOT at all the fault of the person shooting the torps.

Very long range torpedoes, particularly those not very fast, can be in the water an excessively long time. Plenty of time for a fast team mate to decide to sail into the area and get hit. Ships that were sailing in the completely opposite direction suddenly turn 180, and torps that you put in the water with no one even remotely in that area, suddenly become a danger. Or you're situated well in front of your team, but to the side, and some team mate decides to go from reversing to full ahead, charging 10km ahead and ending up closing the triangle to where your torps were headed.  Or even worse, the super-long-range torps can cover half the map, and end up in places that were completely clear or which there's no reasonable expectation on the launching person they could possibly hit anyone.

There ARE a distinct minority of places where being able to warn of "friendly" torps would be of great use. Clicking on the minimap and then being able to press F10 (or whatever) would indeed be nice. 

 

those 10% of cases the person learns FAST on how to do it right.

I have a clan member in my clan that only ever uses DD's and he has NEVER hit a friendly target yet. How? He refuses to fire torps if an ally could get hit.... We need more players like that.

Edited by kiwi1960

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9 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

those 10% of cases the person learns FAST on how to do it right.

I have a clam member in my clan that only ever uses DD's and he has NEVER hit a friendly target yet. How? He refuses to fire torps if an ally could get hit.... We need more layers like that.

None of the situations I described is there any reasonable chance that the team mate will get hit. Nonetheless, some people take it upon themselves to force an UNREASONABLE event to occur. 

If your clan member NEVER fired torpedoes when he *could possibly in a rare situation* hit a friend, he'd never fire torpedoes at all, or he'd be much less effective than someone who rarely, but did, hit someone  (and, if we're talking Clan battles, you have much better communications there than Randoms).  Using 20km or 16km torps simply occasionally means you'll hit someone 2 minutes after you launched.

Here's an easy scenario:  you're in a cap, contesting it against someone right there. You're in a close battle, and have to use your torps to kill the opponent.

But oops! You don't hit every single torp on the enemy. And the half-spread you had to use to kill the guy 5km away now sails 10km more out the other side of the cap (east/west) and rams into a friendly that was coming from the cap on that side.   

Edited by LAnybody
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40 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

Here's an easy scenario:  you're in a cap, contesting it against someone right there. You're in a close battle, and have to use your torps to kill the opponent.

But oops! You don't hit every single torp on the enemy. And the half-spread you had to use to kill the guy 5km away now sails 10km more out the other side of the cap (east/west) and rams into a friendly that was coming from the cap on that side. 

Had this happen many times. If you wait to make all the visual calculations of which friendlies might end up in the line of fire, you never take the shot and are probably dead and the red ships lives to sink your team mates too. Still the fault of the shooter but it would be great to have a way to quickly warn a team mate after the situation has settled and you have time to actually look at those background blurs. It doesn't absolve the shooter, but may save a hit on an ally.

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On 6/26/2020 at 11:46 PM, IgnisFatuus said:

A message for torpedo warning should be added to the standard messages dial. It simplifies team communication and it can make the target player more clear where the torps are coming from and what to do. 
 IDK guys, seems to me it could save a good chunk of team damage.

I suggested this a couple years ago. It would be a lot more useful than the "I need intelligence data" message that, while effectively signalling the sender's acute lack of intelligence, is otherwise merely an annoyance that earns a report. What is truly amazing is how many people are giving the OP such a hard time about proposing an action that makes sense and provides a simple means of alerting a teammate to a potential hazard. Instead of implementing a useful warning message, no, lets just continue to jabber sanctimonious crap about when not to launch torps, because that has obviously worked so well. 

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4 hours ago, LAnybody said:

None of the situations I described is there any reasonable chance that the team mate will get hit. Nonetheless, some people take it upon themselves to force an UNREASONABLE event to occur. 

If your clan member NEVER fired torpedoes when he *could possibly in a rare situation* hit a friend, he'd never fire torpedoes at all, or he'd be much less effective than someone who rarely, but did, hit someone  (and, if we're talking Clan battles, you have much better communications there than Randoms).  Using 20km or 16km torps simply occasionally means you'll hit someone 2 minutes after you launched.

Here's an easy scenario:  you're in a cap, contesting it against someone right there. You're in a close battle, and have to use your torps to kill the opponent.

But oops! You don't hit every single torp on the enemy. And the half-spread you had to use to kill the guy 5km away now sails 10km more out the other side of the cap (east/west) and rams into a friendly that was coming from the cap on that side.   

He does, and fires them often. The trouble is when DD drivers think its their ONLY weapon and MUST be used no matter what.

He either goes in alone so NO allies can be in front of him, or finds an angle that makes sure all allies are safe. In real life, this wouldn't be a problem, but this is a game where even those that have never served can drive a pixel ship.

Most accidents are just that, but the ones that fired at me never said sorry or turned it around to be my fault... ie: you were in my way, tough for you.

Its the attitude that needs to change as well as these people thinking they are the only ones allowed to have fun... if they were torped, OMG, you should read the abuse.... so, maybe children or immature adults.

Then again, it it really was an accident, then I'll just accept it as a friendly fire incident.

Edited by kiwi1960

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11 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

For that case you are being forced to not use your torpedo tactical advantage due to their own choices. It's all about having a more capable communication suite.

Their ship has priority over your torpedoes.  Deal with it.

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7 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Their ship has priority over your torpedoes.  Deal with it.

Why? who defined that? I mean, I'm also sailing to get into position to use my weaponry.

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3 minutes ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Why? who defined that? I mean, I'm also sailing to get into position to use my weaponry.

Common sense defined that.

One of your attacks, statistically likely to miss, is of far less value than a floating and fighting friendly ship.

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8 hours ago, kiwi1960 said:

He does, and fires them often. The trouble is when DD drivers think its their ONLY weapon and MUST be used no matter what.

He either goes in alone so NO allies can be in front of him, or finds an angle that makes sure all allies are safe. In real life, this wouldn't be a problem, but this is a game where even those that have never served can drive a pixel ship.

Most accidents are just that, but the ones that fired at me never said sorry or turned it around to be my fault... ie: you were in my way, tough for you.

Its the attitude that needs to change as well as these people thinking they are the only ones allowed to have fun... if they were torped, OMG, you should read the abuse.... so, maybe children or immature adults.

Then again, it it really was an accident, then I'll just accept it as a friendly fire incident.

You seem to think only of DDs as torpedo platforms. I really like IJN ships, they just look pretty cool to me. So I have seen plenty of times when an ally refuses or puts zero attention that if did a little change in his direction(teamplay) that sudden BB from around an island or that spearhead charge from the enemy could eat some neat torpedo salvo without the aforementioned team member be in need to commit a suicide maneuver.
Just try to close in in a Venezia or a Yoshino, see how that works.
It is definitely a fact that plenty of fellows drop teamkiller torps without any concern on the outcome, but there is also players that like to play with all their resources in an intelligent fashion.

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Just now, Helstrem said:

Common sense defined that.

One of your attacks, statistically likely to miss, is of far less value than a floating and fighting friendly ship.

Common sense. Mighty sound argument you got there, be serious. This is not a feature that would create a game unbalance nor anything like that.

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Just now, IgnisFatuus said:

Common sense. Mighty sound argument you got there, be serious. This is not a feature that would create a game unbalance nor anything like that.

The feature doesn't do what you think it does.  You think it makes it OK to fire your torpedoes from behind friendlies.  It does not.

I have been in situations where I needed to turn away to angle my armor against incoming fire and a friendly's torpedoes meant that I could not without being torpedoed.  I had the maneuver I needed to do taken off of my options list because a DD player thought it more important to launch long range torpedoes.  My choices became 1) turn away and be torpedoed 2) maintain course until the torpedoes pass and eat citadels or 3) turn towards the enemy and be in too deep to extricate myself.  I chose to turn in and hope the situation developed for me to get out of it.  It did not.  The torpedoes, which were oh so important to fire, did not come anywhere near an enemy ship.

Another example, I was in Yoshino armed with 20km torpedoes.  I had a good line on an enemy BB and cruiser, but an Iowa was turning and could have entered their path.  I chose to wait until the torpedoes would pass behind the Iowa in a place he could not be hit by them no matter what he did.  He did turn into the original path, the torpedoes I actually dropped passed behind him and one of them hit the enemy cruiser.

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11 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Why? who defined that? I mean, I'm also sailing to get into position to use my weaponry.

In real life, any commander firing torps at a friendly target, peace or wartime, would be shipped out of the Navy. Its that simple. Other players take precedence over your desire to get a kill, you think its fun to sink an enemy target, and it is, but so are other players on your team who have the right NOT to also fear your torps as well.

I was playing long before the "pink" punishment came along... and it was a real nightmare back then. Its a lot better now... but even so, your new warning system will do nothing to prevent bad players from firing torps at their team mates, in fact, it would legitimize bad playing because the offender will say the warning was issued... even though the bad playing is preventing others from also enjoying the game... any warning system you devise will not prevent that, so what is the point.... either learn or give up. I will not want players to fire torps even MORE now because they think a warning system will make it all OK....

The fact is, with or without a warning system, it s wrong to fire torps if they can hit an allied warship... doing so will NOT prevent you from becoming pink.

If you are NOT able to ensure the safety of other players (and their enjoyment), do what I do, play ships that do not have torps and let the better players play them. Simple really.

I'll freely admit I'm bad with torps, and I end up saying sorry in the chat multiple times because I feel guilty. I do understand some players think they are Gods gift to their team, I freely admit I am not.

 

You could always buy the Dutch DD and rain fire and death down on your enemies, without torps... that's fun.

Edited by kiwi1960
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13 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Common sense defined that.

One of your attacks, statistically likely to miss, is of far less value than a floating and fighting friendly ship.

Absolutely wrong. Common sense says stay out of the way of the unguided munitions that will kill your ship as readily as the enemy's. Go walk in urban traffic. Yes, you have the right of way over the cement truck, the law is on your side, except for the one law that matters. Force equals mass times acceleration. Step in front of a vehicle and you are the one who gets hurt. I am sure the knowledge that your estate will win a large settlement shall be of immense comfort as you die.

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2 hours ago, kiwi1960 said:

In real life, any commander firing torps at a friendly target, peace or wartime, would be shipped out of the Navy. Its that simple. Other players take precedence over your desire to get a kill, you think its fun to sink an enemy target, and it is, but so are other players on your team who have the right NOT to also fear your torps as well.

I was playing long before the "pink" punishment came along... and it was a real nightmare back then. Its a lot better now... but even so, your new warning system will do nothing to prevent bad players from firing torps at their team mates, in fact, it would legitimize bad playing because the offender will say the warning was issued... even though the bad playing is preventing others from also enjoying the game... any warning system you devise will not prevent that, so what is the point.... either learn or give up. I will not want players to fire torps even MORE now because they think a warning system will make it all OK....

The fact is, with or without a warning system, it s wrong to fire torps if they can hit an allied warship... doing so will NOT prevent you from becoming pink.

If you are NOT able to ensure the safety of other players (and their enjoyment), do what I do, play ships that do not have torps and let the better players play them. Simple really.

I'll freely admit I'm bad with torps, and I end up saying sorry in the chat multiple times because I feel guilty. I do understand some players think they are Gods gift to their team, I freely admit I am not.

 

You could always buy the Dutch DD and rain fire and death down on your enemies, without torps... that's fun.

But then of course, this isn't real life now is it? 

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On 6/29/2020 at 3:21 AM, IgnisFatuus said:

Well, if you are not into communicating with your team at any length there is not much to be done.

Yes, and then you have people emboldened by this, firing torps practically at friendlies, thinking it's a good shot because "ohh, they know to move" when it's infinitely more complex than that. And, as per usual, probably missing everything but friendlies. But now they feel justified to be angry, when they are in the wrong for what happens due to their own choice.

This game does not need more toxicity, and this will only make those entitled individuals that much more entitled.

If I am forced to choose between angling my armor, overextending and dodging friendly torps, I am choosing the one more likely to kill me sooner, which is usually the armor angling and overextending. And this goes double for playing cruisers, as giving broadside to a BB is just not gonna end well. If the friendly took the shot, I let them reap what they sow.

Even in co-op, if someone wants to torp me, I'll intentionally take precisely 1 torp. They will never learn if they fire torps at friendlies and they dodge them. A torp hitting gives feedback they see. It sets precedents for the system, too. It makes future automatic punishments just that little bit more severe, as it's one more match on average with significant friendly fire.

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