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John370

Counter to Kitakaze

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So I was in FDG today, and a Kitakaze lit me up for 45k damge between HE and fires.  I can't see it, and even if I could it's crazy tough to hit. I'm nine games in withFDG after grinding the German BBs, and I can expect to see Kitakaze again. What can I do to counter a gunboat DD like that?

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2 minutes ago, Kirov_Six said:

Rockets.  :Smile_popcorn:

Rockets? You mean I need a friendly CV to help? I didn't have one in this game.

 

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5 minutes ago, John370 said:

So I was in FDG today, and a Kitakaze lit me up for 45k damge between HE and fires.  I can't see it, and even if I could it's crazy tough to hit. I'm nine games in withFDG after grinding the German BBs, and I can expect to see Kitakaze again. What can I do to counter a gunboat DD like that?

Push in with hydro if he smoked in an exposed area.   Keep nailing him with HE if he’s kiting. 

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11 minutes ago, John370 said:

So I was in FDG today, and a Kitakaze lit me up for 45k damge between HE and fires.  I can't see it, and even if I could it's crazy tough to hit. I'm nine games in withFDG after grinding the German BBs, and I can expect to see Kitakaze again. What can I do to counter a gunboat DD like that?

Kitakaze is the most overpowered DD at T9

The only counter to it is CVs

Destroyers in the current meta are feast or famine, against CVs they are utterly hopeless, but without CVs they dominate everything.

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Just now, DolphinPrincess said:

Kitakaze is the most overpowered DD at T9

The only counter to it is CVs

Destroyers in the current meta are feast or famine, against CVs they are utterly hopeless, but without CVs they dominate everything.

Well, overpowered until the Mogador shows it's face. 

That reminds me, I'm doing a comparo between the Mogador and the Kitakaze soon

:SerB:

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Just now, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Well, overpowered until the Mogador shows it's face. 

That reminds me, I'm doing a comparo between the Mogador and the Kitakaze soon

:SerB:

I don’t know at least during early match  with some team support even a torp boat can make a Mogador  useless.   In a 1v1 the mogador might win most of the time. In a team fight it doesn’t hold up as well. 

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I said this when the gun-boats came out.

When they smoke you can either run or charge them..... charging with Hydro on is a good way to deal with it, you might eat a torp or two but if you have HE Loaded, Secondaries on him as soon as his two sets of torps are fired he has no choice but run or die.... Problem is now in this meta, you will get cruiser spammed to death.

 

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9 minutes ago, eviltane said:

I don’t know at least during early match  with some team support even a torp boat can make a Mogador  useless.   In a 1v1 the mogador might win most of the time. In a team fight it doesn’t hold up as well. 

That's why, despite the concealment nerfs, I play the Mogador as an ambusher. Also, those torps, the 550mm 24V Modele 2s, have a stupid high speed and are capable of one-shotting most DDs that it faces, and capable of severely damaging or incapacitating most cruisers and battleships. With 10 of them, it damn hurts.

But going back to the playstyle, I prefer to take single fights rather than pushing with the team, using the incredible speed and excellent gun ballistics to my advantage against other ships. 

As for the Kitakaze, it is far larger and clumsier than most would lead you to believe, and compared to the Mogador, it is far slower, with worse torpedo power ( I know it has reload booster and a 6 tube launcher with the Type 93 mod.3 torps, but it still has a very long 171 second reload compared to the Mogador's 77 second reload , and it only has the one launcher ). Also, the Kitakaze may be able to out DPM the Mogador in the long run, but the burst DPM provided by the Main Battery Reload Booster, plus the monster alpha strike of the 139mm guns, means that the Mogador will be capable of outtrading the Kitakaze in a short duel, especially if the Kita is caught out without it's smokescreen or reload booster at the ready.

Just my two cents

:SerB:

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using island cover is the best method for avoiding h.e spam and the limited range on the kita but kitakaze does have a very long torp reload so if you use your hydro to push into it while its smoked to avoid the torps its a relatively a free kill, maintaining a nose in angle into it provides minimal area for the h.e to pen your structure.

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23 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Well, overpowered until the Mogador shows it's face. 

That reminds me, I'm doing a comparo between the Mogador and the Kitakaze soon

:SerB:

French DDs are only better in competitive assuming no CVs

Otherwise Mogador would not stand a chance against Kitakaze, but the most direct comparison to Mogador can be Udaloi or Tashkent.

For random battles in general, French DDs are just woefully inferior to Russian DDs in every way.

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17 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

French DDs are only better in competitive assuming no CVs

Otherwise Mogador would not stand a chance against Kitakaze, but the most direct comparison to Mogador can be Udaloi or Tashkent.

For random battles in general, French DDs are just woefully inferior to Russian DDs in every way.

I'd argue the opposite, actually.

It seems like we keep forgetting the totally arbitrary saturation gimmick that the Frenchman receives, meaning that the Mogador will end up taking less damage in the long run ( assuming no detonations or the occasional Venezia pot-shot ). As for the Tashkent and Udaloi, they have great speed, but they turn worse than the Mogador, and the Mogador does get that improved French Engine Boost ( which also improves acceleration and deceleration far better than it should, for some strange reason ). Also, despite the fact that both the Tashkent and Udaloi do get smokescreens, they have no effective vision counter to know when those 75 knot French Missiles will come spearing towards them, and if the Tashkent runs a heal, there is no safe way for it to disengage from a close range gun duel against a Mogador. The only thing it can do is pray that the heal will keep him alive until he can get back into cover. 

The same thing applies to the Kitakaze. Those 100mm/65 Type98 guns do have a phenomenal rate of fire and high DPM, but against the hull saturation, sure, you'll deal damage, but nothing much can be done otherwise, short of a well-aimed torpedo spread. In this regard, teamplay is the best counter to the Mogador, where the Kitakaze smokes up and someone else ( usually a torpedo DD or a radar cruiser ) can keep the Mogador lit up while the Kitakaze rain death and destruction down on the Mogador. But given how much that occurs in Randoms these days, I wouldn't bet on it. 

Carriers are the only ones that can do anything to DDs these days ( unless is European, in which case, they still do stuff, but it's somewhat limited )

:SerB:

Edit: I'm a potato. I forgot to mention that Italian Cruisers, Radar Cruisers, Hydro DDs ( and to a lesser extent, Hydro BBs ) will wreck a DD in a heartbeat

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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Radar cruisers, or Cvs. 

In a 1v1, use the terrain. The kita cant see you either if it's in smoke, unless you use your main guns. So if a kita smokes up in front of you and nothing else is spotting you, move up and hydro them without take blind shots with main guns.

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When in the Georgia I just nose in, hit speed boost and run them down.  This is provided they are alone and doing so does not offer my broadside to any of his teammates.  I would assume the FDG could do the same thing just a little slower but with hydro for a safer approach.   If the Kita does have friendlies around, just move away.  Kita has limited smoke consumables, moving our of range will waste one of them.  

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You don't need a CV to take out a Kitakaze, just get a cruiser to get with radar range and light it up. The Cruiser can take it out quite easily.

Kitakaze really isn't over powered, people don't like HE spamming ships. If it spams HE, it's over powered by a lot of people. (Worcester doesn't have smoke and the forums used to be filled with people claiming it's over powered). It takes a Kitakaze over 3 minutes of spamming a BB with its HE to kill it. If you sit there and let them do that, then you have a positioning problem. The Kitakaze doesn't have a super longer range, if I recall correctly around 14km. If you stay in the open and let the boat spam you to death, its on you.

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1 minute ago, Gemlin said:

You don't need a CV to take out a Kitakaze, just get a cruiser to get with radar range and light it up. The Cruiser can take it out quite easily.

Kitakaze really isn't over powered, people don't like HE spamming ships. If it spams HE, it's over powered by a lot of people. (Worcester doesn't have smoke and the forums used to be filled with people claiming it's over powered). It takes a Kitakaze over 3 minutes of spamming a BB with its HE to kill it. If you sit there and let them do that, then you have a positioning problem. The Kitakaze doesn't have a super longer range, if I recall correctly around 14km. If you stay in the open and let the boat spam you to death, its on you.

Kitakaze gets 12.5km range, but AFT brings it to around 14.9 or something IIRC. Dat HE pen tho...

:SerB:

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4 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

I'd argue the opposite, actually.

It seems like we keep forgetting the totally arbitrary saturation gimmick that the Frenchman receives, meaning that the Mogador will end up taking less damage in the long run ( assuming no detonations or the occasional Venezia pot-shot ). As for the Tashkent and Udaloi, they have great speed, but they turn worse than the Mogador, and the Mogador does get that improved French Engine Boost ( which also improves acceleration and deceleration far better than it should, for some strange reason ). Also, despite the fact that both the Tashkent and Udaloi do get smokescreens, they have no effective vision counter to know when those 75 knot French Missiles will come spearing towards them, and if the Tashkent runs a heal, there is no safe way for it to disengage from a close range gun duel against a Mogador. The only thing it can do is pray that the heal will keep him alive until he can get back into cover. 

The same thing applies to the Kitakaze. Those 100mm/65 Type98 guns do have a phenomenal rate of fire and high DPM, but against the hull saturation, sure, you'll deal damage, but nothing much can be done otherwise, short of a well-aimed torpedo spread. In this regard, teamplay is the best counter to the Mogador, where the Kitakaze smokes up and someone else ( usually a torpedo DD or a radar cruiser ) can keep the Mogador lit up while the Kitakaze rain death and destruction down on the Mogador. But given how much that occurs in Randoms these days, I wouldn't bet on it. 

Carriers are the only ones that can do anything to DDs these days ( unless is European, in which case, they still do stuff, but it's somewhat limited )

:SerB:

Have you seen what happened in the T9 ranked season?

This goes for randoms as well, in a fight between a Tashket/Udaloi against a Mogador, the Mogador have no chance of winning.

The difference is simple, and DPM numbers do not lie, yes the Mogador takes reduced damage when it is low, yes it have a reload booster, but neither of those are going to be sufficient in turning the fight around.

Lets not forget the smoke's ability to negate the effective of MBRB, and that's assuming a pure 1v1, because otherwise Kitakaze/Tashkent/Udaloi would have 20 seconds of free fire.

French DDs are good in clan battles because they can travel in packs of 4 or 5, making up for the lack of DPM, you can sort of duplicate it in a division. But if its just a single Mogador, it wont stand a chance.

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4 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Have you seen what happened in the T9 ranked season?

This goes for randoms as well, in a fight between a Tashket/Udaloi against a Mogador, the Mogador have no chance of winning.

The difference is simple, and DPM numbers do not lie, yes the Mogador takes reduced damage when it is low, yes it have a reload booster, but neither of those are going to be sufficient in turning the fight around.

Lets not forget the smoke's ability to negate the effective of MBRB, and that's assuming a pure 1v1, because otherwise Kitakaze/Tashkent/Udaloi would have 20 seconds of free fire.

French DDs are good in clan battles because they can travel in packs of 4 or 5, making up for the lack of DPM, you can sort of duplicate it in a division. But if its just a single Mogador, it wont stand a chance.

Good point. The alpha strike is high, but the DPM is low. Might have something to do with the appalling 8.0 second base reload. And the smoke, can't forget the smoke.

Now I'll ask, how would the Kleber stack up? 

:SerB:

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23 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Good point. The alpha strike is high, but the DPM is low. Might have something to do with the appalling 8.0 second base reload. And the smoke, can't forget the smoke.

Now I'll ask, how would the Kleber stack up? 

:SerB:

Kleber have the same DPM as Mogador, so in a DD fight it does not change anything, it will lose to the same ships, especially the T10 counterpart Harugumo (which gains 2 extra guns), Grozovoi (which gains much faster reload), and Khaba (which gains 50mm plating and extra 2 guns).

However, while 1v1s may not have became any better, the overalls of the DD is improved while Harugumo is a side grade from Kitakaze and Khaba is a personal preference and certainly not a straight up upgrade from Tashkent.

If you want to win 1v1s at T10, the Merceau is the way to go, it will still have to be very careful about smokes in a normal circumstance, but in a 1v1 the Merceau is terrifying

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19 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

If you want to win 1v1s at T10, the Merceau is the way to go, it will still have to be very careful about smokes in a normal circumstance, but in a 1v1 the Merceau is terrifying

It's actually spelled Marceau, but still...

Note to self: Grind coal for the Marceau

:SerB:

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Thanks everyone. Maybe at some point I'll figure this game out.

 

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3 hours ago, John370 said:

So I was in FDG today, and a Kitakaze lit me up for 45k damge between HE and fires.  I can't see it, and even if I could it's crazy tough to hit. I'm nine games in withFDG after grinding the German BBs, and I can expect to see Kitakaze again. What can I do to counter a gunboat DD like that?

Surprised this is the 1st time you've seen it as both Gneis & Bis see T9 gunboat DDd also... you've been lucky so far if this is a 1st for you.

(This is an example for you trapped in wide open water & it's just you & him...if at any time there is an island to duck behind on the way check out the situation at that time...other reds backing him up/etc...to judge whether to "duck & cover" as opposed to charging in...but...)

Easy answer is load HE & as it is loading charge the smoke (actually best to hit the 1 key to change to HE on your next volley & fire your AP round into the smoke at his shell tracers to try to soften him up...it might even make him think you are coming in w/AP)...when you get in hydro range (there's a setting in battle to show hydro range...CTR/little gear above the mini map has the setting***) light him up w/hydro...then light him up w/HE.

***German BB hydro has almost a 6km range...it's awesome for hunting DDs...not as your 1st action at start of battle of course but if you don't have the circle on all of your German BBs on you should do that immediately.

If he keeps firing the whole time save the hydro until your guns are all fully loaded w/HE & you are in hydro range...but...if he changes to torps you will notice 2 things at once...his shells will stop firing & your Priority Target will go down by 1 (conversely PT will go up by 1 after he fires torps if he starts firing at you again which will give you an idea of when the torps are coming).

Use hydro before you get in range if that happens so you can spot the torps ASAP then after dodging them build your speed back up & keep on charging. If he was parked in smoke you will probably catch him at full speed even if he starts to run (especially if when dodging torps you decide taking out a Kit is a priority to not getting your paint scratched...IOW...be willing to eat a torp or 2 to keep your speed up for charging as opposed to slowing way down to miss them all).

You have a massively higher HP pool & can take 3 or 4 torps & still survive it (& w/the hydro chances are you'll only take 1 or 2 or even zero.

Can't stress this enough...Don't come in slow...full speed ahead will give you more ability to maneuver than slow speed once your hydro spots his torps & the speed to catch him from parked even if he uses boost.

You will notice his shells coming from farther away if he starts to run early but he will probably get spotted when he leaves his smoke unless he stops firing so either you will get him or at least make the spam stop.

(-: Sorry if some of this got repetitive...went back & edited thoughts for "clarification" & the editing lead to repetitiveness :-)

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