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Sammy_Small

How does Izmail reach 28.5 knots?

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After playing some Submarine battles in battleships. I started looking at the speeds and engine horse power rating of all tier 6 BBs.
The one that jumped out at me was the Izmail, was able to reach 28.5 knots while only having 75k hp ( horse power ).

Reasons for it being unreasonable:
Most tier 6 BBs that have 70k ~ 75k hp typically can only get up to 24.5 ~ 25 knots. (Fuso, Byaern*, Kongo**, etc. )
Tier 6 BBs that can get up to 28~29+ knots typically have 90k ~ 112k hp (PEF***, Dunkerque, Normandie***, etc.)

Historical design for Borodino class battle cruisers ( Izmail being one of them ) had a target speed of 26.5 knots at 66~68k hp and machinery that could be "forced" to 90k hp for an estimated speed of 28.5 knots.

I am aware that this is an arcade game, but how hard would it be to list the "correct" stats that make sense from a game play perspective? (as in 90k hp for 28.5 knot speed).
Because otherwise there might as well be a hidden stat that only applies to Soviet ships ( "The Will of Stalin" ) that gives them passive +50% to engine power rating. / sarcasm

Alternatively would it have been too game breaking to give Izmail a 26 ~ 26.5 knot speed with a 66~68k hp engine and a standard ( +8% ) speed boost consumable ? 



* Fictional refit
** Stock engine on a tier 5 Kongo
*** "paper ships" / designs that haven't conducted IRL speed trials

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Comrade our history is correct...if continue on your line of questioning it will lead to your sudden disappearance!

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2 hours ago, Sammy_Small said:

Because otherwise there might as well be a hidden stat that only applies to Soviet ships ( "The Will of Stalin" ) that gives them passive +50% to engine power rating. / sarcasm

Not really sarcasm. Not sure if they call it that, but its real. Also applies to many other aspects.

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Historical accuracy was stretched with the  mid-tier Germans and then went completely out the window with the French. The precedent having been set, they then decided to simply ignore any semblance of balance with every line introduced since, culminating with the USSR battleships.

--Helms

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I am not even talking historical values for most ships...
Just game mechanics wise there are a few BBs that have higher listed speed than they should, based solely on engine horse power to tonnage / displacement ratio. ( speed boost and other "magic" shenanigans excluded )

Examples:
Ishizuchi - 27.5 knots on 64k hp ( should be about 70k~75k )

Pyotr Velikiy - 26.5 knots on 60k hp ( should be about 75k ~ 80k )
Izmail - 28.5 knots on 75k hp ( should be about 90k ~ 100k )
Sinop - 27 knots on 100k hp ( should be about 125k ~ 135k )

FDG - 30 knots on 165k hp ( should be about 180k ~ 190k )
Grosser Kurfurst - 30 knots on 167.5 k hp ( LOL WUT?! more like ~265k hp is needed )

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Weeelllll

Here's the thing. It's not just engine power that makes a ship go as fast as it does. The keel to beam ratio is the other key factor. The greater that ratio, the lower the hydrodynamic resistance, and thus, the faster the ship goes. However, this inflates the rotation speed loss, and thus, the reason why the Izmail turns like a brick

:SerB:

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On 6/22/2020 at 1:31 PM, Sammy_Small said:

After playing some Submarine battles in battleships. I started looking at the speeds and engine horse power rating of all tier 6 BBs.
The one that jumped out at me was the Izmail, was able to reach 28.5 knots while only having 75k hp ( horse power ).

Reasons for it being unreasonable:
Most tier 6 BBs that have 70k ~ 75k hp typically can only get up to 24.5 ~ 25 knots. (Fuso, Byaern*, Kongo**, etc. )
Tier 6 BBs that can get up to 28~29+ knots typically have 90k ~ 112k hp (PEF***, Dunkerque, Normandie***, etc.)

Historical design for Borodino class battle cruisers ( Izmail being one of them ) had a target speed of 26.5 knots at 66~68k hp and machinery that could be "forced" to 90k hp for an estimated speed of 28.5 knots.

I am aware that this is an arcade game, but how hard would it be to list the "correct" stats that make sense from a game play perspective? (as in 90k hp for 28.5 knot speed).
Because otherwise there might as well be a hidden stat that only applies to Soviet ships ( "The Will of Stalin" ) that gives them passive +50% to engine power rating. / sarcasm

Alternatively would it have been too game breaking to give Izmail a 26 ~ 26.5 knot speed with a 66~68k hp engine and a standard ( +8% ) speed boost consumable ? 



* Fictional refit
** Stock engine on a tier 5 Kongo
*** "paper ships" / designs that haven't conducted IRL speed trials

Izmail actually has a pretty good length to beam ratio for a battleship of this era, 233.8 meters long, 30.5 meter beam, 8.8 meter draft. 75k shp

HMS Queen Mary, an actual WWI battlecruiser, 213.4 meters long, 27 meter beam, 8.8 meter draft. and about 5k tons lighter. same 75k shp, with a speed of 28 knots.

Hull form is probably similar, as the ships are the same era. Looking at relative hitpoints of in game ships with her actual dimensions, Izmail is a little light, so I doubt we're looking at a 36k ton Izmail in game, and she's probably closer in displacement to HMS Queen Mary, so 28 knots is believable, if the Russian machinery actually delivered.

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21 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Izmail actually has a pretty good length to beam ratio for a battleship of this era, 233.8 meters long, 30.5 meter beam, 8.8 meter draft. 75k shp

HMS Queen Mary, an actual WWI battlecruiser, 213.4 meters long, 27 meter beam, 8.8 meter draft. and about 5k tons lighter. same 75k shp, with a speed of 28 knots.

Hull form is probably similar, as the ships are the same era. Looking at relative hitpoints of in game ships with her actual dimensions, Izmail is a little light, so I doubt we're looking at a 36k ton Izmail in game, and she's probably closer in displacement to HMS Queen Mary, so 28 knots is believable, if the Russian machinery actually delivered.

Even if when looking at historical ships of that era (HMS Queen Mary, HMS Tiger, SMS Derfflinger, etc) most of them achieved their designed speed on trials by "forcing" the machinery by ~20% over their standard power rating.

Secondly, regardless of how fine the hull form the Izamil has and how hydro-dynamically efficient it may be, there is a minimum power requirement to achieve 28.5 knot speed for a ship of that displacement.
( If any one cares to run a CFD calculations with in game model to humor the forums )

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32 minutes ago, Sammy_Small said:

Even if when looking at historical ships of that era (HMS Queen Mary, HMS Tiger, SMS Derfflinger, etc) most of them achieved their designed speed on trials by "forcing" the machinery by ~20% over their standard power rating.

Secondly, regardless of how fine the hull form the Izamil has and how hydro-dynamically efficient it may be, there is a minimum power requirement to achieve 28.5 knot speed for a ship of that displacement.
( If any one cares to run a CFD calculations with in game model to humor the forums )

Already did. Calculations seem right. 

Can't be arsed to put them here, though. It's way too long and way too complicated

(sarcasm)

:SerB:

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29 minutes ago, Sammy_Small said:

Even if when looking at historical ships of that era (HMS Queen Mary, HMS Tiger, SMS Derfflinger, etc) most of them achieved their designed speed on trials by "forcing" the machinery by ~20% over their standard power rating.

Secondly, regardless of how fine the hull form the Izamil has and how hydro-dynamically efficient it may be, there is a minimum power requirement to achieve 28.5 knot speed for a ship of that displacement.
( If any one cares to run a CFD calculations with in game model to humor the forums )

I picked HMS Queen Mary for a reason, she was designed for 28 knots, on 75k SHP, without being forced. It has nothing to do with trials. We don't have trials speeds for Izmail at any rate to compare them.

HMS Queen Mary ironically had more horsepower on trials (by being forced), and didn't go much faster, likely because she was digging holes in the water with her screws.

Izmail, in theory, should only go 26.5 knots, in her original battleship configuration, displacing around 33k tons, on 66k horsepower. Before the Soviets gave up on them, they were re-designated battlecruisers. 26.5 knots isn't anything for a post WWI battlecruiser. To get more speed, the Russians have two options, either get more horsepower, which given the situation in Russia, wasn't going amount to much, or lighten the ship and reduce the draft. Izmail in game is short 8 to 10 130mm secondary guns.

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