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Hapa_Fodder

Submarine Game Mode Feedback

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Aloha,

With the submarine game mode testing coming to a close (24th) I would like you all to have a place to collect constructive and well built feedback for me to compile

Please leave feedback on the following

  • SS game play
  • ASW game play
  • UI for SS game mode
  • Visuals
  • Audio
  • Suggested Improvements

Please keep your feed back constructive and on topic. And remember just because you do not agree with someones feedback, it does not mean that it is not applicable or important!

Mahalo,

-Hapa

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I liked it. My only suggest is with ASW- nerfing depth charges. As a cruiser player, Dallas was OP. Getting 6-8 kills was regular for me. The "G" button is simply a "press to win". As a sub, seeing a DD or CL come over top, I just stopped playing and watched my guaranteed death. No point in even trying.

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From the SS stand point,

1) surface travel and firing seems irrelevant.

2) Underwater speeds are too high and battery recharging too fast.

3) communication while submerged is unfair.

4) immunity zones while changing depth needs to be replaced with something else.

5) surface detection for Submarines should be more varied.

6) submarine deck guns need functionality.

7) submarine AA needs functionality.

B) Surface Ship view point

1) more ships need depth charges

2) CV aircraft need depth charges or bombs able to hit subs at any depth.

3) secondaries need better accuracy against subs.

4) AP and HE shells need to dive deeper against subs.

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1) The most glaring deficiency is the lack of ASW capability for BBs, CVs, CAs (plus most CLs)  I know WG has stated they have some ideas, but this has to be a high priority. No class should be without any counterplay against another. I saw the ASW seaplane or depth charge-dropping spotting plane mentioned a lot - I highly recommend that. 

2) Subs don’t go that fast underwater. I know it’s a game, but come on. 

3) I’d love to see the subs’ deck guns work like secondaries/AA. 

4) This is a great opportunity to not only add ASW-centric DDs to the game (DEs?), but also bring back the odd tier CVs. I by no means advocate for more sky cancer, but this is a wonderful opportunity to bring historical CVs back to the game as ASW-centric platforms (Bogue, Independence, Essex)

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I just think all ship types should be able to damage subs. It's not just dumb but also boring to be a BB in a three sub game. Even practically useless AA does at least nominal damage to planes. 

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Played cruisers, BBs, and CVs against subs.  They seem to be insignificant since I can't tell when they ping me and I have no way to attack subs.  I don't learn anything from the sub cmdrs viewpoint while viewing the remainder of the battle as a sunken ship survivor.  Thumbs up on sub battles.

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2 hours ago, Hapa_Fodder said:

Please leave feedback on the following

  • SS game play
  • ASW game play
  • UI for SS game mode
  • Visuals
  • Audio
  • Suggested Improvements

Submarine gameplay: Boring, as all you really do is launch torpedoes and ping ships. Positioning and dodging effectively do not exist. Sitting at 5.9m and jiggling to 6.0m, then back to 5.9 for immunity to depth charges is a very bad mechanic -- there should be a sizeable overlap zone where both types of damage hit you.

ASW gameplay: Absolutely terrible. Does not exist for 3/5 ship types, as the submarine just dips to 6.0m and is immune to anything you can do. Playing as DD is a horrible experience, as now you are stealth spotted by periscoped submarines any time you attempt to scout. DDs are severely overloaded, and trying to depth charge a submarine by running up on top of it is suicide. Lack of counterplay options leads to many games that run to 20 minutes with only a submarine and a surface ship left, who cannot fight each other if the submarine decides to stay submerged.

Submarine UI: Ugly, and has major defects. You can't see islands while underwater, nor do they obscure the targeting box. I fired many torpedoes into islands not realizing my target was on the other side completely. Almost everything I can see underwater is an untextured silhouette that looks like it's from the 1990s. No depth perception cues when scoped in, extremely hard to tell how much to lead a target in the murky abyss, detracting from gameplay.

Visuals: Underwater environments are barren and ugly, and textures of ships don't even render. Fog/draw horizon underwater when viewing ships underwater makes things even more bleak and boring. I know from free cam that the game has much better-looking rendering of the water surface from underneath, but it doesn't show up when scoped in. What's going on with this? Also, no sense of the ocean being deep when diving. Submarine death animations are practically nonexistent, I assume they're placeholders.

Audio: There was audio?? I guess there was a horn that was okay.

Suggested improvements:

  • Let submarines take shell damage at all normal depths, with only the crush depth consumable allowing them temporary respite (and reduce this duration to 30 seconds or so). This will allow counterplay against the submarine by all ships, as long as the submarine can be spotted. It also gets rid of the stupid 5.9m exploit.
  • Allow periscoped submarines to be spotted by ASW destroyers at the destroyer's own concealment range, so that DDs are not being constantly spotted for free with no recourse besides yolo'ing the submarine. OR have submarines only spot "outlines" of ships on the minimap until they come to surface depth (for balance, and to simulate radio silence underwater).
  • In exchange for the above vulnerabilities, increase submarine HP somewhat and increase turning rate dramatically. Also increase underwater speed without battery consumption to 1/2.
  • Make the underwater scoped rendering use the regular graphics, so the water, ship hulls, and islands render correctly. Add something other than "underwater fog" to give a sense of distance underwater. Add some coral or something to the islands, sheesh, or maybe some fish, it's so drab under there.
Edited by Edgecase
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So after many, many sub games on PTS and live, I do like the subs a lot. They fit my play style the best. I also do much better in them then any other type of ship (usually). I can usually sink two ships per game and I do far more damage with them then any other class. Too bad the in-game stats did not track subs. One of my best games I got 130k damage, 24 torpedo hits, 8 flooding, and 10 citadels. I play the Russian sub the most because of the heal, the short sonar reload time, and the duel rear torpedo tubes (useful for shooting subs). One one of my last games on the German sub I got 143K damage, sunk 6 ships with 17 torpedo hits. I do not do that well on surface ships at all.

My play strategy for subs was to torpedo ships from point blank range. I can (not always) take out anything, even DDs who are hunting me. I sometimes get singed quite a bit, bit that is where the Russian heal becomes very useful. If you take the point blank approach, you can mostly ignore the battery. I spend a fair bit of time on the surface for the speed, the 10k hit point and being a small target means I don't get taken out easily by surface fire.

On the PTS I was very frustrated that the sonar aiming sucked, but then I realized that it is to be used only to assist well aimed torpedoes. It also helps to citadel BBs. Most of the time I don't use the sonar and just torpedo ships at less then 2 km (shorter for DDs, can be longer for BBs). You do need sonar to take out subs. In the game I referenced before, I only had 23 sonar hits. On PTS I did not like that the torpedo lead indicator was not visible underwater, but now I realize that it would be overpowered if they were. Same with how short of time the sonar lock lasts.

Subs shoot torpedoes in very tight formation, and I got pretty good at dodging enemy torpedoes. That is why I shoot point blank.

When I played surface ships (mostly cruisers) I just mostly ignored and commonly forgot about the subs. Their torpedoes were easy to avoid and they rarely hit me. This is mostly because the other players shot from too far away.

Bots attacking subs that are too deep to hit is a problem. I have almost been sunk a few times by my own team's bots while trying to depth charge a sub.

Honestly I think subs are a bit OP. Players now suck at them, but once they get good subs will disproportionately dominate. The only way to take out a well played sub is with depth charges, and a good sub player can commonly torpedo the surface ship before then. Once can also surface (which avoids the charges), then submerge quickly as soon as they are done. Ships without depth charges are just defenseless targets. Subs only get sunk if they make a mistake, something I have much experience with on both sides.

Now, there are ways to counter a sub. They can only fire almost directly front and back, if you approach them from the sides they can't do anything. If they are underwater, their torpedoes take a bit of distance to come up from the surface, so even if you are in front of them, but close, you can still be safe. If they are quite deep, say 30m or so, that safety radius is like 2 km or so.

Should they be nerfed or buffed? I don't know. If you give all surface ships depth charges then that would turn the scales against subs too much. Should they get AA? No. Should they be able to use their deck guns? I say sure, it won't make much difference but could be fun to shell a ship that only has a few hundred HP left. The power of subs at least partially relies on their ability to sink a DD or cruiser with one torpedo volley. If you nerf torpedoes then subs become too weak. I do not envy the game developers trying to figure this out. I do think the German sub torpedo damage is too high, their other specs are not that much different, but their torpedo damage is about 40% higher. A German sub can sink a BB at almost full health with one volley, and I think that is too much.

Another aspect of sub play games that I really like is the mix of bots and humans. In normal randoms, the players spend like 10 minutes puttering around on their staring side of the map at max gun range. That is no fun for me, the mix in sub games makes the match more aggressive. I would love to see this mix of bot and human on live far more often.

Suggestions: IRL, subs had a limited number of torpedoes, but could do wicked damage, it may be interesting to do something similar. I like the idea of a periscope depth, where you can see on the surface, target like you are on the surface, but have limited speed and some vulnerability to surface attacks. One could make the game a bit more balanced by not allowing a sub to survive after a single torpedo hit. That would cause subs to be far more cautious. Also allow them to be more vulnerable at the surface. Currently when submerged, a sub can either see a ship, all it's info, or see nothing, just like surface ships, but it could be changed so that if a ship is far away, a sub only knows it's general location and type, and the picture becomes clearer as the ship gets closer.

Edited by MollyGodiva
I had two spaces between a word. Also added suggestions paragraph.

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Jutland, , Coral Sea .Midway, Leyte Gulf  all major battles of the early and mid 20th Century , battles in random and co-op are arcade recreations of those major battles, Submarines played no significant role in any of those battles and will be impossible to balance and  a very serious disruption to game play overall.

Give them their own game mode , were they could do submarine oriented missions like , convoy attacks, ASW, scouting and evasion, ect ..

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SS game play
Pros
+Extremely fun, WG has balanced it so that you are busy during the otherwise "boring" time of torp reload by maintaining pings.  This is HUGE for feeling the fun.
+Gameplay metas offers either sniping or knife fighting, player bases will be happy
+Clear play/counter play walls
+Damage makes you feel like you've contributed
+Speed is balanced well, I don't want to blow my brains out on the surface while underwater the penalty is not great enough to make me give up on moving and simply become a "torpedo turret"
Pro/Con..Both?
+/-Harder than other classes to carry the match/if you want a high Win Rate, there are more effective classes.  You have great tactical control over a flank but have traded that for strategic influence of over the whole map.
Cons
-Subs are slow, game play can be boring if you've won your flank and need to flex to the other side of the map
-BBs need something to help the skilled player live, they should get a unique mechanic of a warning notification that they've been pinged by a sub
-Subs turn a bit too slowly especially since <1km sub v sub engagements are common

ASW game play
Pros
+DDs vs Subs is amazing.  I have killed the DD just as often as I have been killed by them, including winning a 1SS vs 2DD engagement.  IT IS NOT A ONE SIDED HARD COUNTER, SKILL WILL PREVAIL!!  YAAAY!!
+Hydro will become more viable
+CLs, DDs, and SSs provide several options to counter subs, much more variety than the handful of radar ships to counter DDs
+SS will be the last targets CVs hunt and even then it will be very ineffective
Cons
-Air detection of subs is...smaller than surface?!?  -And at a mere 1.5ish km!?!  That's not historical or good for game mechanics.  Surfaced subs should be more visible from the air than at sea level for a list of reasons.
-BBs feel vulnerable to subs and they should be...but the players need to know when they are being targeted by a sub at least
-Hydro, which lasts for several minutes, is a bit too strong against subs: it would be better if they spotted the sub for X seconds, then the sub went dark for Y, then spotted for X, then dark for Y then X. . . . .

UI for SS game mode
UI is comfortable and informative, but aiming the Acoustic Ping feels clunky.  Especially when different ships have different ping-speeds, I wasn't aware the ability to alter the speed of sound underwater was WWII tech.
In Subs vs Sub underwater fights, a numerical indicator of the enemy sub's depth would be helpful.  Since the default camera angle is behind and looking down a bit, this can be very misleading when dumb firing torps.

Visuals
Occasionally I have needed to see the distance between myself and the underwater sides of island.  You get the visual automatically every 15 seconds or so and it is a nice visual....but I would like the ability to manually trigger this when the need arises, perhaps with the 'horn' key that makes an underwater pinging sound?

Audio
Klaxon/Horn/Dive alarm needs to fade out like the other horns in the game do.  It really irks me that the sound just ends instead of the slow-deep-fade that big horns do.

Edited by Digital_Wind

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SS game play

I don't get the vibe of playing a sub, there is no depth or complexity for the gameplay, just ping things, fire torps and glide up or down a few meters. Feels more like a PT boat with gimmicky inmunity. Adquisition and firing on target is either trivial or very hard, depending on your ability to land pings. Some very meaningful "landmarks" of submarine gameplay are absent: there is no periscope view or aiming, there is no coherent benefits for silent running your sub, there's no active ASDiC pings for when you are tracked, no individual torp launch, no firing solution calculation. All accounted, I'm not interested in playing subs like they are now, they feel really arcadish in the worst sense.

 

ASW game play

Also feels shallow and too simple, instead of a hide and seek game it becomes very twitchy and risky to run down a good SS player. It is too easy for the hunter to become prey of a well played sub. Sub detection mechanic isn't clear and reliable, Hydro is too powerful, no way to escape it for subs once in range, should be avoidable by silent running. Depth charge range is too large and the discrepancy of values between the horizontal and vertical planes is too glaring. No ASDIC/SONAR. ASW weapons is limited to depth charges, no hedgehod, no airplanes able to ASW.

I played a lot of BBs, I don't have problems with them and other ships not having ASW capabllities but there should be a very limited number of subs per battle in relation to ASW able units, along the lines of 1:3. CVs must have some kind of ASW capability. Subs are too fast in relation to Dreadnought type Battleships. End of match situations between sub vs non ASW unit needs some tought, it is too easy to reach a boring stalemate.

 

UI for subs.

It is in accordance with the simplicity of the game play. I don't blame the UI, just the game play design it derives from.

Would be useful to have graphical gauges for depth, angle and bearing of the sub

 

Suggested Improvements

* No ping/homing torp mechanic, at least for me is a deal breaker in regards of inmersion and suspension of disbelief. Too much arcade to properly enjoy sub game play.

* Instant change between submerged and surfaced states with the respective inmunity to the related weapond system needs to be addressed

* Needs more Periscope! Aiming should be based on periscope/binocs

* No comms/limited comms while submerged

* Homing torps only as consumable for point defense

* More torpedo types and possibility to adjust trayectory and quantity of torps in a salvo.

* No underwater recharge of batt. No underwater movement without batt. Underwater movement limited in a significant way by battery size.

* More streamlined detection mechanic with relation to "noise level" of the sub. Maybe add a "noisemeter" to track detection level.

* Above all, make subs feel like subs. Not the gamey vehicle they are now.

Edited by ArIskandir

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I would first like to start by saying my best games ever in wows, have been in the uboat.  I absolutely love it.  That being the case, I both agree and disagree with a number of points made about and have my own thoughts I would like to add.

 

I agree that the speed of the submarines is a decent balance for the arcade nature of the game.  The turning radius is also a decent balance, I found that if I got into a knife fight with another sub commander we both got tunnel vision on each other.  Turning endless circles trying to get the bow or stern to line up.  Then, either the reds or the greens would happily come sink both of us.  

 

However, as the game is currently, the arcade nature of how the subs behave really takes away from the concept of slow and stealthy that was the mantra of sub commanders.  I was really sad when the RTS element of the CV's was removed.  I think subs is an opportunity to revisit that, so instead of nerfing the subs speed, underwater recharging, etc, make all sub movement commands on the map.  Allow for precise depth setting as well.  In case of a collision with an island, there would need to be a reverse option in the map.

 

WW2 era subs struggled to engage each other, they were primarily focused on surface ships.  So even with everything else being left the same, having to set your course and depth in the map would reduce the interactions between subs.  I found I got plenty of kills rushing close to the front in my U-69, creeping up close the brawl, focusing on enemy subs first, then any other target.  I mostly wasn't afraid of DD's, get a couple of volleys towards them even without a hit and they often give up.  It would take a dedicated DD driver with support to take on my U-69.  A lone DD was not a threat to me, especially with the 6.0/5.9 submerged/surfaced exploit.

 

So I'm advocating for slowing down the subs play style, but not slowing them down.

 

I am also very happy with the sonar ping and torpedo stats as they are.

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imo subs turn to slow underwater and the ping is [edited] you have no way of telling how far to lead the ship atleast with surface torps you have a guide, i have played many sub games and this is the worst sub play i have ever seen, unless your on top of your target your only hoping you hit both ends i WAS excited for subs but from what i have seen there trash.  but im just a casual so nobody and WG dont give a crapwhat i have to say

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Overall, I like submarines.  I tend to have a stalker mentality for gameplay, and they satisfy that very well.

 

Suggestions:

  • I would love to see them in some kind of operations scenario where one side has to escort cargo ships, and the other is attacking the convoy.
  • The UI definitely needs help.  I'm not asking for a metered gunsight like surface ships have, but what we currently have feels almost like an alpha version - definitely unfinished.
  • It would be effective to expand the number of ships with DCs, but I disagree that shells should be able to damage subs at all depths - no one would play them after a very short while.  (which is probably why it's been suggested)
  • DCs should damage subs at any depth.  This should remove some complaints.
  • I have no problems with the underwater speeds.  Submarines were a strategic weapon currently being used in a tactical sandbox game.  If anyone complains about 'realism' they need to refer to the infinite shells, just in time heals, insta-repairs, etc. for surface ships, not to mention that effective speeds in surface ships are about 10x real right now.
  • I've mentioned this before, but subs could use modules like surface ships.  Homing could be a module type.  This would definitely remove a lot of complaints, especially if the modules were designed with a give-and-take approach.

For those who like to say there's no counter for subs - there is.  It's called DDs, so instead of expecting a team's DDs to sacrifice themselves for the greater glory of BBs, how about supporting them?  This also applies to any cruiser sporting DCs.

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8 hours ago, Hapa_Fodder said:

Please leave feedback on the following

  • SS game play
  • ASW game play
  • UI for SS game mode
  • Visuals
  • Audio
  • Suggested Improvements
  • Sub play

In all honesty, the underwater game play is just to slow for the fast pace of the regular game mods.

The Subs in the Halloween event, were suitable for PVE, Co-op or Operations...

This recent Sub mod/event, because of the very slow underwater mechanics... Targeting more then one ship was not possible. Even with bots...

  • ASW

The ASW UI were confusing, it doesn't tell the user if you're in range or the sub is out of ordnance range. Granted I like the depth charges... However, the information they provided in order to Deth charge a sub... Left the user guessing or relaying on limited to no credible information use to hit the sub.

  • Visuals and audio..

Visuals and audio were stunning... Which is completely different from the audio changes proposed in the upcoming patch for regular ships.

The Visuals and audio transported me to from surface warfare to submarine warfare... The visuals were amazing stunning... The audio, very good job...

Now, 0.9.6 audio changes.... Sounds like WOT audio superimposed/dubbed over WOWS replay or ship battle.. Its that out of place...

  • Suggestions

If the goal is to bring subs to Randoms, it really was a two steps backwards compared to the Halloween sub event... Mainly, the underwater mechanic is just to slow even with bots...

Subs are to fragile,

Subs are to specialized to even with the random Meta.

Subs underwater mechanic is to slow for today's game meta... That pretty much killed it for me.

All I can say is, it was a good test... I prefer the Halloween Subs over these subs... These new subs functionally just dont fit in the current game.. I strongly suggest to revamp

the

  • under mechanics
  • under water UI
  • ASW UI along with the depth charges UI.

Other then that... I had fun... But I am Sub saturated.

GL

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Sub mode was very interesting in terms of the added dimension in the tactical fight.  The requirement of subs to be surfaced to cap is very much something I think needs to stay, and I believe for the most part, the subs were balanced within their place in the game.  I do think having half the team in the battles I fought be bots skewed the outcomes and combat environment of the test, and that the conditions in a full player-only battle would be significantly different.

 

However, I would suggest the following changes:

 

First, modify the homing mechanic for the torpedoes to only function against submarines.  I understand this function is required for subs to fight other subs effectively, but it is too powerful against surface ships because it allows the sub to make effective attacks while being immune to fire from enemy units as well as making torpedo shots more accurate.  Without the ping mechanic, the sub must come up to a depth where they can be engaged in order to fire their torpedoes, which will function as any others.  The supreme concealment of subs enables use of this.

 

Second, if the first is not able to be implemented, allow Battleships, Battlecruisers, and Heavy Cruisers a single-use Depth Charge attack consumable that mirrors the Light Cruiser depth charges of that tier.  This would provide some ability to engage a Submarine, but keep these units from taking over the sub-hunt duties expected of DDs and CLs.  Note these non-sub hunters would not receive the sub spotting ability of DDs and CLs, but have to judge when to use their consumable based on normal spotting.  Carriers should receive a single-use Sub Bomber squadron consumable that acts the same as the single-use Depth Charge consumable, except that the Sub Bomber is an actual piloted version of the Dive Bomber that can only do damage against submerged targets (no damage against surface units).  Having only a single such squadron per battle will likewise keep CVs from becoming to Subs what they already are to Destroyers, while still allowing them to assist other units once per battle.

 

Third, if either of the above two suggestions are implemented, increase the hit points of the submarines to compensate for the larger number of depth charge attacks permitted to each team.

 

Fourth, enforce the same friendly-fire rules on depth charges as any other weapon system.  They should be able to damage friendly units, and the friendly unit should have to exercise due caution when dropping explosives where their own subs may be.

 

Finally, look at the spotting code for surfacing subs.  Almost every time my sub surfaced, it was detected, even though it was not in range to be spotted when submerged and no enemy was counter-spotted.  This indicates there may be a fault in the spotting code of a submarine that comes up to the surface (or I admit I may have missed some modifier to the spotting mechanics in this case...but I thought it worth mentioning).

 

 

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Hope these recommendations and new interesting ideas might help for the gameplay better:

SS (Surface ships and Submarines) gameplay

1. When in close range, give horn (or voiceoverto signalling submarine is going on the surface = notifying surface ships (especially DD) that submarine is on the surface, and that partly avoid submarine abusing surface advantage which submarine won't receive damage from depth charge, so that surface ships have an easy time when to use their guns to deal with submarines.

2. For other surface ships (BB, Heavy CA, CV), they can run an aircraft that equips depth charges, and they can automatically drop and at least lightly damage submarines within very close or close range. --> that could discourage submarines from sailing too close underwater

3.Surface ships should be notified (e.g. sound effect or voiceover say "enemy submarine is on the surface!") when they "lock on" ("x" key) submarines ascending to the surface or when they are in the mid-close range from the "ascending-to-the-surface" submarines.

4. Like CV reloading attack run, submarine should have some sort of time penalty for popping up on the surface and diving down underwater. (I recommend penalty should be 5-10s)

5. need "lock on" for sonar pin. (e.g. "x" key for locking the target for gun, so sonar pin should have same feature)

6. Enable secondaries for submarines.

UI for SS game mode

6. need an indication to see the rate of descend/ascend (like  ship turning left or right have a slider showing how fast the ship turning)

Other Improvements

7. Definitely make gameplay more fresh and interesting if submarine operations add to the game.

8. Hydrophone could show possible other submarines locations within a certain range. 

9. it's unfair only DDs and light CA receive where submarines generally located when submarines underwater because ships can transmit information to other ships. (as known as spotting mechanic)

Visuals

10. It would be great to add an optional light beam underwater --> better vision for the underwater world

Feedback/ Interesting ideas

ASW gameplay

A. I think the strength of ASW is too high, and the health pools for submarines are about right. 

B. As I mentioned above, the current surface ships like BB, heavy CA, and CV have a lack of ability to deal with underwater submarines --> constant long battle time.

          1. As suggested above, I strongly recommend depth charge mounted on types of aircraft on BB, heavy CA. Absolutely, the damage should not be too high.

          2. Deepwater sea mines could be added for BBs, Heavy CA to against submarines.

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From a Sub standpoint there was a learning curve, but overall things were pretty good. Got a bit annoyed trying to use homing torpedoes, but if and when normally launched torpedoes were desired a sub was able to surface to launch which makes them a bit more flexible in a good way.

I did like how the different sub nations had different abilities as they made for better testing I felt. And my preferences were the US sub with the longer ranged torpedoes and speed boosts, and the German U-Boat with hydro. The Russian heal could be some what useful, but with how much damage the subs would take it was more situational overall.

 

Now against surface ships there is an issue regarding BBs and CAs being defenseless unless the sub surfaces and we should have the idea of some depth charges being added. Perhaps 2+ depth charges simultaneously off either flank of the BBs. So a more complete radius around the BB would have charges falling into the water, seeing as how most BBs are not the most maneuverable, and if a sub gets that close it should have a certain amount of fish if the BB gets alerted to them.

CAs we could simply give them the same depth charges as CLs since they are fast enough to be able to hunt subs more effectively than BBs are would not require the charges to be launched 

CVs nothing is needed on the CV itself, with some practice the dive bombers were able to damage and sink subs. But in Randoms high tiers especially I think we will need to look into air dropped depth charges. Granted they may be required to be smaller charges, but I certainly think it would be something to look into. I actually like some suggestions I have seen where the CV player would need to decide between depth charges and perhaps rockets or something so they don’t get to counter everything at once. Which is an idea.

 

Now DDs while being able to hunt subs 1 on 1, have a major and fatal flaw. Subs are able to spot DDs from way to far away while fully submerged. Which means a sub could hold an entire flank at bay on Ranked, Randoms, or Clan battles simply by being submerged, having the torpedo threat, and if DD tried to hunt the sub any enemy surface ship in range will open fire on the DD. So subs really need to only have the full long ranged spotting abilities when surfaced, and have reduced spotting when submerged because right now I will not be going out sub hunting in a DD when as soon as I am spotted by a sub it will be endless Radar, hydro, air attacks, and raining HE shells. And if there are now ASW screening ships or better yet subs sunk there will be no way to get a Randoms team on the weekend moving. The game will literally be broken. The problems regarding subs having their submerged spotting being far too good was probably the first and the most significant issue I noticed when playing in subs mode. 

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On 6/22/2020 at 6:22 PM, Jakob_Knight said:

First, modify the homing mechanic for the torpedoes to only function against submarines.  I understand this function is required for subs to fight other subs effectively, but it is too powerful against surface ships because it allows the sub to make effective attacks while being immune to fire from enemy units as well as making torpedo shots more accurate.  Without the ping mechanic, the sub must come up to a depth where they can be engaged in order to fire their torpedoes, which will function as any others.  The supreme concealment of subs enables use of this.

I agree with the above.

I would like to be able to practice with submarines in the training room. If not, then I am forced to play in the test server or learn the mechanics in live battle. Neither ideal for me which is why I did not run submarines at all this time. I only played DDs.

As has been said already, fix the 5.9 - 6 meter gimmick. I don't think guns should cause damage below 6 meters but depth charges should be able to cause light damage above 6 meters. A 500 pound depth charge goes off at 3 meter depth next to a surfaced submarine and there is NO damage at all? I don't think so. I was told by the skipper of the Callaghan (Fletcher class) that when they dropped shallow charges on a mini sub while going slow speed ... less than 15 kts, the stern of the DD was lifted significantly. Enough so that when the attack was over, the rating who was stationed in aft steering came up to the bridge to berate the skipper, much to everyone's astonishment! The skipper let it go and the bridge crew all got a good laugh out of it.

Give the BBs and CAs that have spotter aircraft the ability to drop depth charges within a limited range around the ship. Perhaps a similar function for the CVs. It has to be a limited range or the subs will not be effective at all.

 

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On 6/22/2020 at 9:44 AM, Hapa_Fodder said:

Aloha,

With the submarine game mode testing coming to a close (24th) I would like you all to have a place to collect constructive and well built feedback for me to compile

Please leave feedback on the following

  • SS game play
  • ASW game play
  • UI for SS game mode
  • Visuals
  • Audio
  • Suggested Improvements

Please keep your feed back constructive and on topic. And remember just because you do not agree with someones feedback, it does not mean that it is not applicable or important!

Mahalo,

-Hapa

SS game play

From the submarine perspective, I give the gameplay a 9/10, and my reasons for holding back that last point have to do primarily with the UI, which I will discuss when I get to it later. The submarines definitely still emphasize patience, not to the degree of earlier submarine games, but enough to be a good addition to WoWs. Some people might not like the slow nature of the gameplay, but then again, submarines are not supposed to be a yeet ship anyway, and should be punished harder than any other ship type for doing so, aside from maybe destroyers. As much as people hate the homing torpedoes, they are a necessary element to make the class functional, and despite many complaints, the torpedoes absolutely can be dodged, and it happens far more often than many surface ship players realize just through basic manuevering. 

ASW game play

This is where a lot of work still needs to be done. Single destroyers have a hard time sinking a smart submarine without support. The best defense against a single destroyer for a submarine is to surface and try to lock on and hit the destroyer with torpedoes at close range, evading depth charges. I had this done to me early on, and even posted about it, and within a few days had started effectively doing it myself while in submarine. This manuever does not work well if multiple enemy ships are nearby with secondary guns, which can melt a surfaced submarine quickly. Ther are two problems with this interaction. First, the aiming of the main guns at a submarine is very counter to instinct. It's hard to hit a submarine that is at 1-5.9 meters depth with main guns, and that is what makes the surfacing manuever so unfair more than anything else. Second, the depth charge mechanics need a little tweaking. They should actually deal more damage to a submarine on the surface than submerged, but in trade off, destroyers should be unable to deploy depth charges if moving slower than half speed, because in turn they would risk damaging themselves with their own charges if they did so. Changing this would make the interaction more balanced correctly as well as adding a touch of realism.

Then there is the matter of the ships that don't have specific ASW equipment. Most battleships and cruisers have the option to carry aircraft. I would suggest adding a single depth charge drop to spotting aircraft, enabling a deployed spotter to drop damage on a spotted submarine equal to 1/3 of the potential damage Destroyers can do with their 3 uses of depth charges. Cruisers without aircraft should have access to some form of regular depth charges, but maybe not as many uses as the cruisers that will by default have them based on the test. If a cruiser or battleship chooses to run a fighter or radar instead, too bad, they just don't get a direct answer for a submarine. As for Aircraft carriers, dive bombs and carpet bombs, whether HE or AP, need to be given the ability to function exactly like depth charges when dropped on a submarine, regardless of how deep they are, except the submarine should be immune to the bombs when fully at maximum depth and using the consumable. In turn, AP bombs should be as inneffective in this use as they are against destroyer armor. In suggestions, I will add a specific ship suggestion that would be a nice fit to ASW gameplay when and if submarines ever join random battles.

UI for SS game mode

As I said earlier, main battery aiming at submarines needs to be easier. From the submarine point of view, improvement needs to be done to the aiming sight for pings. Aiming the pings is entirely too difficult, as marks need to be added to the aiming sight. Otherwise, the UI seems to be quite good. The submarine versus submarine combat is outstanding and very well done.

Visuals

The visuals are already very good. The islands need to be just a little bit more visible so it isn't so easy to run into them, even when using the minimap to navigate. The ship sinking animation could use some work, as right now slipping beneath the surface is erasing battle damage. It would be an amazing plus if capsizing battleshps and cruisers gained animation of their turrets falling out of their barbettes, but that might be too much for the visual art teams and programmers. 

 Audio

Already perfect! Don't change anything!

Suggested Improvements

Most of what needs to be done I have already added in the above sections where relevant, but there is one other odd quirk I would suggest developing. As of right now, USS Bogue is not slotted to be in the alternative USCV line. Since it will not be returning as a tech tree ship, if submarines are added to random battles, I suggest bringing back the Bogue as a tier 6 premium coal ship with the following changes. 1) Give it depth charges instead of rockets. Make it specialize in ASW, just like the class tended to be used historically. Destroyers will be thankful the rockets are gone, but they will likely be very angry at the second chaged suggestion. 2) give the Bogue a new consumable to replace its fighters: Hydroacoustic Buoy! The Bogue won't have fighters or torpedo bombers. Instead of the fighter consumable, it will drop a 40 second buoy (the same as British DD smoke) that will spot like a hydroacoustic search radius of 3-4 km around the spot where the buoy is dropped, but like radar will grant a 5 second delay to allied ships being able to see revealed targets. Bogue would no longer be able to use fighters as a defensive tool, except for it's own personal squadron (like a tier 4 CV), and it would not have rockets to use, but it would be a spotting monster for short intervals. Its slow speed, only two flights of planes, one of which being useless against anything other than submarines, low hit points, and lack of fighters would do a lot towards keeping it balanced. The bomber flights should probably be pretty tanky and have a heal to balance this, however.

I hope this was helpful.

 

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Loved Submarine battles overall.

My suggestions:  Turn radius way to large takes too long. Double of what a BB takes. Speed that up. A Cruiser can do circles on top of your Sub.

                                 Torpedos are difficult enough to hit a targeted ship. They are too weak. I spent most of my time in the German sub just because the torps  did more damage.

                                  Depth charges are too lethal. One pass from a DD your sunk and there is no getting away due to S L O W turning radius

 

                                 I hope to see submarines back in battle real soon. I used to like to play DD's but with everyone gunning for them and the multiude of radar, and now CV pilots rocketing them too that is now useless. If I would have known

                                 that the DD's were going to get the raw end of the deal I would not have wasted time and money grinding them to tier 10's.

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SS Gameplay
Pros:
     •    All the submarines felt unique yet balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses, nation wise
     •    The manual control of depth felt nice and the handling was also nice
     •    The feeling of sneaking around was unique and exciting
     •    The speed was good all around and overall felt balanced in terms of faster or slower based on depth level

Cons:
     •    Most games felt too fast or too slow, but I feel that was more based on how I played subs match to match
     •    Likewise, I felt subs either did an amazing amount of damage or barely any
     •    The U-69 ability felt a little overpowered being able to spot ships when itself couldn’t be spotted or couldn’t be damaged
     •    The damage taken from depth charges felt like a little too much even with the maximum consumable depth being used, but I also attribute that to inconsistent gameplay and testing on my part
          o   This also left me often barely alive, alive with no way to recover from flood/fire, or dead since it was depth charge salvo after salvo
     •    Being able to bob from 5.9 to 6.0 meters and avoid damage felt absolutely overpowered. After a while most matches, I barely ended up going lower than 7.0 meters unless there was a enemy sub to attack
     •    The ping system while fine, is also limiting. Often I found myself leading a ping on a target I couldn’t see at distance underwater, which was frustrating to an extent.
     •    I also found myself wondering why there isn’t a box around the ping target so I can determine when a ping is successful. Often I found myself getting target pings on targets where the ping looks like it should have missed.
     •    I wish the deck gun was active so AA could shoot planes (even if it wouldn’t be super useful) and one verse one sub battles could end quicker with a surface shootout
     •    Please also allow single launch torpedoes option, firing both often felt unnecessary for me. I would have enjoyed single firing four torpedoes when taking longer ranged shots and adjusting based on enemy reaction.         

Suggestive Improvements:
     •    Add another torpedo type that’s faster but does super low damage, can’t citadel, and reloads faster
          o    This would help subs to cause more steady damage instead of super high or super low damage
     •    Add a surface depth level, periscope depth level, and third (underwater?) depth level where the first two are fixed levels and the third allows the manual depth control like we have now
         o    This would help combat that 5.9 – 6.0 meter depth abuse and give surface ships more time to shoot you as you go underwater from level to level. I’m also not really sold on this idea myself but can’t think of anything better that’s a nice middle ground for freedom with restrictions
     •    Please let us use the deck gun for AA and manual control when facing other subs. If anything, make it a secondary if you have too. Sub verse Sub battle when it’s just the two left is painfully slow
     •    I’m not sure about this one either but perhaps change the German nation to have a different ability? Or at least make it so hydro can’t spot surface ships underwater for your team, just you?
     •    Add a box around the ping circle so we can better identify how close a ping has to be to the circle to be successful
     •    Single launch torpedo option
     •    Overall, minor tweaking could be done to subs and I know this list looks really negative but I truly enjoyed subs and look forward to them in the future again, if they add them

ASW Gameplay
Pros:
     •    Felt rewarding dropping depth charges and getting kills
     •    I enjoyed the chasing minigame but realistically in a live match with all players, it’s hard to tell how it would play out. Especially at high tiers

Cons:
     •    Being able to sit overtop a sub and continuously drop depth charges seems overpowered and unfair for the sub. Again, it’s also hard to tell how it would play out in a live match with all players and at high tiers
     •    Subs being able to bounce between 5.9-6.0 meters for invulnerability.
     •    Not being able to see the subs depth without targeting them. I would like the depth to be displayed somewhere by their name or health when spotted. It’s frustrating when I have to break a target lead just to see of the sub can be damaged or not
     •    Not all ship types can counter. I know this one is already being worked but still, it is frustrating playing as a BB last alive and only being able to sit on top of the sub at most. This also goes for the other ship types but not to the same extent.

Suggestive Improvements:
     •    Again, I know this one is already being worked on but Heavy Cruisers and Battleships should get one set of depth charges along with a depth charge plane consumable. Aircraft Carriers should get a depth charge plane unit.
     •    Add sub depth indicator to name or health so we can see without having to lock onto the target
     •    Refer to above for 5.9-6.0 depth abuse

UI for SS Game mode & Visuals
Pros:
     •    Enjoyed visually to an extent. The scanning of the sea floor was cool.
     •    Controls and consumable icons were clear enough
     •    Depth charges above and below water were visually appealing

Cons:
     •    Honestly, I’m not sure what really could be done but I wish underwater was more visually appealing.
          o    Perhaps less cloudy (more visual range with more clear water)
          o    More sea floor visuals when at max depth level or when using max depth consumable (coral reefs, sea weed, trenches,  something)
     •    The ship outlines and visuals could be improved underwater. It wasn’t terrible but it wasn’t exactly exciting. I couldn’t always see the enemy ship and the ship outline well. Plus it was hard to tell when a ship was going at you or going away when all you see is the hull moving around underwater at a distance.
     •    Visually there’s only a small puff with light when torpedoes hit. It just doesn’t visually excite me.
          o    More clear water near surface level with darker vision and screen the lower you go (to simulate light penetration) would be cool
          o    Perhaps a shockwave for your screen when a torpedo hits or citadel, something to visually stimulate along with the light and puff from a torpedo hit
          o    Even a nice audio “boom” would be cool
     •    Please, please add some static lead indicator or something for the submarines periscope. It’s annoyingly hard to judge ships speed and lead pings with just a crosshair. Combined with less than pleasing underwater visuals, it’s just leads me to frustration when I’m either leading too far or not enough.

Suggestive Improvements:
     •    I honestly don’t know the limitations of the game engine so I would just say refer to my bullet points and sub bullet points above

Audio
Pros:
     •    Submarine horn/alarm thing was cool
     •    Depth charge sound was also cool when underwater and above water
     •    Passive sonar noise was cool

Cons:
     •    Not really sure.

Suggestive Improvements:
     •    Maybe add some fun ambient noises underwater like whale calls

Overall Thoughts 
I know this wasn’t a category but I’d still like to repeat that despite the long list of what appears to be mainly negative feedback, I really did enjoy subs, a lot. While there could definitely be improvements made in all areas, I feel that if subs were to launch today I would still be pleased to an extent. Others may disagree and that’s cool but I still think subs will make a fun addition to the game one way or another, if they decide to add them.
 

Edited by A_Basic_Potato

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On 6/22/2020 at 9:44 AM, Hapa_Fodder said:

Aloha,

With the submarine game mode testing coming to a close (24th) I would like you all to have a place to collect constructive and well built feedback for me to compile

Please leave feedback on the following

  • SS game play
  • ASW game play
  • UI for SS game mode
  • Visuals
  • Audio
  • Suggested Improvements

Please keep your feed back constructive and on topic. And remember just because you do not agree with someones feedback, it does not mean that it is not applicable or important!

Mahalo,

-Hapa

SS game play:
~The latest submarines are a huge improvement over the Halloween event submarines.
~I like the battery mechanic.  The Halloween oxygen mechanic was too limiting.
~While WOWs subs are faster than their real-life counterparts,  so also is the arcade game nature of WOWs itself.
~Deck guns and AA need to be enabled.  Getting them ready for surface combat might require a "delay" after a submarine is fully surfaced.  Also, diving could need a "delay" to stow the guns & ammo and recover the crew so they aren't abandoned.
~Single fire of torpedoes needs to be an option available to Submarine Players.
~Scenario operations that allow Submarines to shine are desired.
~Submarines are supposed to be able to out-stealth DD's and everything else except another submarine.  Please stand firm on this concept.
~Controlling the depth of the submarine is an improvement over the Halloween event features.  Some "preset" depths, such as periscope depth, would be convenient, though.  
~The torpedo aiming cones that are available while on the surface should also be available in 3-D while underwater.  
~Setting the course of a torpedo was possible with WW-II torpedoes and gyroscopes would allow a submarine to fire a torpedo that would turn to a course that is to the side of the width of the launching-arc of the hull.  With careful calculations, a player could send torpedoes to hit targets in a historical method of attack.
~Manual depth setting of torpedo running depth, as an optional firing mode.
  Against a surface ship, this could improve torpedo damage, or reduce its' damage (because a torpedo hit the torpedo protection of a ship) or allow a torpedo to miss completely if a player doesn't judge the target's depth-of-the-keel correctly.  
~Compared to other games, such as Silent Service or Red Storm Rising, WOWs submarine game play is very fast.  Almost like flying a plane in a dogfight.

ASW game play:
~Don't take options away from bold and savvy Submarine Players.
~DD's and cruisers with Depth Charges can do a lot of damage to a submarine in a short amount of time.  So much so, that it has become wiser for a Submarine to surface than to dive deep.
~Depth charges could be pre-set to explode in a 3-D pattern, so that not all explode at the identical depth of the submarine (whatever that depth happens to be at the moment).
~Ramming works, both ways.  It works just fine.  :-)
~Ships equipped with a catapult plane consumable should have an ASW plane consumable available.  This could be selected in port, before entering a battle.
  The ASW plane(s) could have smaller and less powerful depth charges, but would provide an option for catapult-equipped ships.  Ships not equipped with a catapult are not able to mount this consumable, period.
  ASW planes could also provide shared vision & targeting data, but would not function as fighter planes nor would they provide the enhanced range and vision of a dedicated spotter plane.
~CV's could have a small squadron of ASW planes or could choose to arm a bomber or torpedo squadron (pre-selected, before take-off) with aerial depth charges.  Figuring out how to best implement this or to implement both options would be a developer decision.
~Ships equipped with hydro-acoustic search should be able to find submerged submarines.
~Ships not equipped with hydro-acoustic search would be able to spot submarines that are near enough to the surface or are fully surfaced.
~The underwater "noise" should affect submarine detection.  A noisy BB sailing at full speed might prevent the detection of a submerged submarine running on battery power, for example.
  Temperature differences underwater could provide a "thermal layer" for submarines to hide under and avoid detection, especially if they "run silent" at slow speed or are stopped.
  Depth-charge explosions should also obscure submarine detection.
~Depth-charges should affect all hulls within their range of effect, including friendly hulls.

UI for SS game mode:
~Having range to target information has been helpful (compared to the lack of it in Public Test Server play).
~Need targeting cone while underwater, to help with aiming of torpedoes at targets, especially if firing the torpedoes without a homing lock established.
~Underwater terrain needs to be more visible.  I consult my mini-map at times because my submerged submarine can somehow see a target, but can't see that a huge island is between my hull and the target.

Visuals:
~Surface sailing offers many points of reference that disappear when underwater.
  This is one time when the Halloween scenarios offered more detail of the underwater environment and the viewing of terrain and ships and architecture from the underwater perspective.

Audio:
~Audio seemed fine.

Suggested Improvements:
~Some have been mentioned above.
~Don't "cave in" to whiners and crybabies who want an "easy button".  

Other:
I enjoyed the improved submarine environment.  There will be adjustments, I figure. 
What I do like is that Submarines encourage teams to work together to preserve the team and coordinate the efforts to sink the opposition. 
Different hulls have differing capabilities and by working together a team can use the strengths of one to cover the weakness of another.  

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I thought on the whole it was well done, I echo the thought that the deck gun should be active. Can we please get the Big gun Frenchie next time? I find that once a DD gets on top of me I am done if there is no surface ship to kill them. Perhaps up the RNG to give the sub a chance to slip away undetected?

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