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shayguy

Aircraft Carriers in Clan Battles

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First off, I would like to point out that this is my opinion of Carriers in Clan Battles. I know that there have been countless posts concerning this topic, but I would like to give my two cents on it as well.

Secondly, I would like to point out that I am a relatively experienced carrier player. 

 

Personally, as someone who played the Aircraft Carrier this past season for my clan, I really hope they do not add Aircraft Carriers to the competitive setting anymore. 
Let me explain:

Since the beginning of clan battles, the majority of the challenge was guesswork and positioning. DDs provided spotting for their team. Cruisers would be there to flank, crossfire, and hold down positions, and Battleships would be there to try and counter those cruisers.

With carriers in clan battles. It really shifts the meta from what I know and love, to something else.

This season with the inclusion of carriers, it really shifted from guesswork and positioning, to who can wear the other team down faster.

Most if not all teams took DFAA over Hydro. The only ships you really saw at storm-hurricane were Stalingrad, Venezia, Hakuryu, and maybe sometimes a battleship with a Halland. Because every ship took DFAA, it made it really challenging for the carrier. At the same time, It was equally frustrating for the 6 other ships on the team who were on the receiving end of the carrier's strikes.

(sidenote: there was a joke going around that the number 25,500 was implanted into any person's mind who were playing Stalingrad/Moskva/Des Moines)

I would like to point out that playing destroyer in this past clan battles season, was more of a liability than an advantage.

But that is not even the main weapon of the CV this past season.
Forgetting what carriers are in Random battles, the spotting ability of the carrier in clan battles is a huge advantage. In a typical clan battles season, if a cruiser makes a mistake, and loses a lot of HP, the cruiser could disengage and heal up. This season, if a cruiser tried to run, it was focused down. So making mistakes were more easily punished.

The spotting of the carrier made it impractical to hold a position by an island because dive bombers could do critical damage to a cruiser trying to do that (specifically Stalingrad).

Finally, I would like to conclude this post with a suggestion for wargaming. Please don't add carriers into clan battles, and bring back the 8v8 2 battleship clan battles. I think many people can agree that that clan battles season was one of the best.

 

Edited by shayguy
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I disagree, as I don't believe CV in general is at fault for the monotony at the top. In fact, in the lower leagues, the field was quite engaging and diverse. The reason the top leagues were so narrow was because of a bad interaction specifically between Hakuryu, Stalingrad, and Venezia that only really works when specifically those three ships are involved. Ironically, Hakuryu is probably less effective at killing destroyers than it's tier 10 counterparts, but it doesn't have to be when Stalingrad can use 12 km radar and a single Venezia can one shot a destroyer, nevermind when there are 4 of them focus firing the same destroyer. No, the problem is these three ships all have a combination of tools that combine affecting the spotting game with alpha striking, and the weaknesses each has are covered up by the others. The alternative ships, Midway, Moskva, and Smolensk, just don't have the alpha strike capabilities that make the others so lethal together.

Of course, the really big mistake of this season was making teams choose between CV and BB. It would be far better to allow one of each. As for DD, that will require nerfs to Venizia.

28 minutes ago, shayguy said:

 

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10 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I disagree, as I don't believe CV in general is at fault for the monotony at the top. In fact, in the lower leagues, the field was quite engaging and diverse. The reason the top leagues were so narrow was because of a bad interaction specifically between Hakuryu, Stalingrad, and Venezia that only really works when specifically those three ships are involved. Ironically, Hakuryu is probably less effective at killing destroyers than it's tier 10 counterparts, but it doesn't have to be when Stalingrad can use 12 km radar and a single Venezia can one shot a destroyer, nevermind when there are 4 of them focus firing the same destroyer. No, the problem is these three ships all have a combination of tools that combine affecting the spotting game with alpha striking, and the weaknesses each has are covered up by the others. The alternative ships, Midway, Moskva, and Smolensk, just don't have the alpha strike capabilities that make the others so lethal together.

I am a little confused why you are speaking so authoritatively on behalf of why the top league meta ended up the way it did, given you self admittedly weren't in them.

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47 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I disagree, as I don't believe CV in general is at fault for the monotony at the top.

You do not seem to be in a typhoon or hurricane clan, therefore your opinion on the topic is invalid. Not sure how you can attempt to comment on something that you have zero experience with. 

47 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

The reason the top leagues were so narrow was because of a bad interaction specifically between Hakuryu, Stalingrad, and Venezia that only really works when specifically those three ships are involved.

Only one of those ships was a new addition to clan battles. This was the venezia's third season and the only reason it had one of the highest overall usage rates was its extreme effectiveness at long range, its ability to smoke cap, and its ability to mitigate cv damage with its smoke and fighter plane. The stalin has always been strong in cb but was exceptionally strong this season because of the lack of dds and the ability of a cv to dominate with spotting. 

47 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

Of course, the really big mistake of this season was making teams choose between CV and BB. It would be far better to allow one of each. As for DD, that will require nerfs to Venizia.

The real mistake was adding cv's in their current form. It's bad enough how they are still awful to deal with in randoms, but the spotting and ability to do damage on demand is too overbearing in a smaller setting. The fact that it was a choice between a cv or a bb is extremely comical. The best solutions would be to either not allow cv's in cb, match cv teams against cv teams and bb teams against bb teams, or add mini-map spotting/delayed spotting similar to radar.  Wg appears to want to keep cv's in cv so the first option is out. The second option would not be possible as it would show that people do not enjoy cv's in cb and the usage rates would heavily favor bb comps creating awful queues for the cv teams. The third option would be optimal but Wg does not appear to want to go this route. So now all the skilled players sit and wait for the dreaded news that "everything is fine," "cv is good for game,"  and "to just dodge" in the next season of clan battles. 

Edited by eagle_lance
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30 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

I am a little confused why you are speaking so authoritatively on behalf of why the top league meta ended up the way it did, given you self admittedly weren't in them.

I do my homework. One of the key things to improving is not only understanding what is, but why it is. To find a solution, it's important to seek what is making things the way they are, so I listen and pay attention to what is going on in that meta and seek theoretical solutions so that when I do get the chance to face it, maybe I will have an answer. 

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1 hour ago, shayguy said:
Spoiler

 

First off, I would like to point out that this is my opinion of Carriers in Clan Battles. I know that there have been countless posts concerning this topic, but I would like to give my two cents on it as well.

Secondly, I would like to point out that I am a relatively experienced carrier player. 

 

Personally, as someone who played the Aircraft Carrier this past season for my clan, I really hope they do not add Aircraft Carriers to the competitive setting anymore. 
Let me explain:

Since the beginning of clan battles, the majority of the challenge was guesswork and positioning. DDs provided spotting for their team. Cruisers would be there to flank, crossfire, and hold down positions, and Battleships would be there to try and counter those cruisers.

With carriers in clan battles. It really shifts the meta from what I know and love, to something else.

This season with the inclusion of carriers, it really shifted from guesswork and positioning, to who can wear the other team down faster.

Most if not all teams took DFAA over Hydro. The only ships you really saw at storm-hurricane were Stalingrad, Venezia, Hakuryu, and maybe sometimes a battleship with a Halland. Because every ship took DFAA, it made it really challenging for the carrier. At the same time, It was equally frustrating for the 6 other ships on the team who were on the receiving end of the carrier's strikes.

(sidenote: there was a joke going around that the number 25,500 was implanted into any person's mind who were playing Stalingrad/Moskva/Des Moines)

I would like to point out that playing destroyer in this past clan battles season, was more of a liability than an advantage.

But that is not even the main weapon of the CV this past season.
Forgetting what carriers are in Random battles, the spotting ability of the carrier in clan battles is a huge advantage. In a typical clan battles season, if a cruiser makes a mistake, and loses a lot of HP, the cruiser could disengage and heal up. This season, if a cruiser tried to run, it was focused down. So making mistakes were more easily punished.

The spotting of the carrier made it impractical to hold a position by an island because dive bombers could do critical damage to a cruiser trying to do that (specifically Stalingrad).

Finally, I would like to conclude this post with a suggestion for wargaming. Please don't add carriers into clan battles, and bring back the 8v8 2 battleship clan battles. I think many people can agree that that clan battles season was one of the best.

 

 

I call [edited] -- you're just tired of running the CV in CBs.  I don't know how anyone that ran it continuously that wouldn't be.

I do want to first try a season with a BB added (8v8) -- but if it doesn't come for another 2 months, I'm completely fine with that.

Edited by CV_Jeebies

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5 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I do my homework. One of the key things to improving is not only understanding what is, but why it is. To find a solution, it's important to seek what is making things the way they are, so I listen and pay attention to what is going on in that meta and seek theoretical solutions so that when I do get the chance to face it, maybe I will have an answer. 

If you do your homework, why do you consistently disagree with people who actually did and do choose ship compositions for the typhoon/hurricane meta about why they did so?

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1 minute ago, CV_Jeebies said:

I call [edited] -- you're just tired of running the CV in CBs.  I don't know how anyone that ran it continuously that wouldn't be.

Regardless of me being tired of running it continuously, it does not change the fact that meta was changed beyond my liking. Which is why I created the post in the first place; to give my opinion of CV in CB. 
And concerning the [Edited] thing, It was a spelling change.

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but cv encourages engaging game play and prevents static camping!

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9 minutes ago, shayguy said:

Regardless of me being tired of running it continuously, it does not change the fact that meta was changed beyond my liking. Which is why I created the post in the first place; to give my opinion of CV in CB. 
And concerning the [Edited] thing, It was a spelling change.

I enjoyed seeing something different -- I think a limit of 2 of any given ship would be far more beneficial given the result of the last several seasons.   I didn't like the strain it put on the CVs that know how to run in competitive -- if they were present, wins were often, if they weren't the opposite occurred.   Walls of AA separated the men from the boys in the class.  All players had to adapt new tactics and I know there isn't a single team in typhoon and hurricane that aren't better versed in CV mitigation.  It was a brutal season, but a great learning experience. Oh, and ban hax already

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

If you do your homework, why do you consistently disagree with people who actually did and do choose ship compositions for the typhoon/hurricane meta about why they did so?

A long sad history of dealing with spike gamers in other games has given me a lot of cynicism about why people who are top performers actually make the choices they do. It comes down to gamer psychology, but going into detail would take us way off topic.

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7 minutes ago, CV_Jeebies said:

All players had to adapt new tactics and I know there isn't a single team in typhoon and hurricane that aren't better versed in CV mitigation.  It was a brutal season, but a great learning experience. Oh, and ban hax already

ahh yes great learning experience! 

it is alot of fun to be groped by planes i cannot shoot down and to be outplayed by players far worse in skill!

nobody has learnt anything new about "mitigating" cv we all already knew they are a broken joke from an incompetent balancing team set out to release easier and easier ships to appeal to lesser players.

by far the worst cb season yet, its beyond me how anyone could enjoy the long range camping and sniping garbage.

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5 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

ahh yes great learning experience! 

it is alot of fun to be groped by planes i cannot shoot down and to be outplayed by players far worse in skill!

nobody has learnt anything new about "mitigating" cv we all already knew they are a broken joke from an incompetent balancing team set out to release easier and easier ships to appeal to lesser players.

by far the worst cb season yet, its beyond me how anyone could enjoy the long range camping and sniping garbage.

Enough of the hollow hyperbole already --- plenty of planes were dropped.  You do a great disservice to the community with the nonsense you espouse quite regularly.  Why feed on the false narratives --- you think you're any better than the balancing team while you run around the forums adding to nonsense you know isn't true?  Your defense to on-point retorts -- "but muh stats, I can drive CV in randoms so I'm right".  One can be good at a particular something, in a particular mode, and still run around spreading disinformation. 

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What I don't understand is how anyone can say CVs cause a stale clan battle meta when the games are 3% shorter

6 minutes ago, CV_Jeebies said:

One can be good at a particular something, in a particular mode, and still run around spreading disinformation. 

You can also be bad at something in a particular mode and also be wrong about it, but what would you know about that

Edited by WernerHerzdog
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5 minutes ago, CV_Jeebies said:

Enough of the hollow hyperbole already --- plenty of planes were dropped.  You do a great disservice to the community with the nonsense you espouse quite regularly.  Why feed on the false narratives --- you think you're any better than the balancing team while you run around the forums adding to nonsense you know isn't true?  Your defense to on-point retorts -- "but muh stats, I can drive CV in randoms so I'm right".  One can be good at a particular something, in a particular mode, and still run around spreading disinformation. 

plenty of planes were dropped but then they come back with a full squad.

claiming others opinions as false narratives is a bit hypocritical you know that right, considering we are talking about cv in clan battles at higher levels and the fact that the overwhelming majority of high level clans hate cv inclusion.

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2 minutes ago, WernerHerzdog said:

You can also be bad at something in a particular mode and also be wrong about it, but what would you know about that

You can't be bad in something you don't play.  I run MMM, I see what pops up.  Take my random mahan stats for instance, and then go check the leaderboard for it in ranked.  Won't be hard for ace to find me....

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12 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

plenty of planes were dropped but then they come back with a full squad.

claiming others opinions as false narratives is a bit hypocritical you know that right, considering we are talking about cv in clan battles at higher levels and the fact that the overwhelming majority of high level clans hate cv inclusion.

I'm pretty sure it's the majority opinion in a very large percentage, if not all of them.  As for the planes, the only way to keep returning is to not bring full squads in the first place, especially RNG flak that blaps them all in one go.   CV is a chore --brawls were much more enjoyable than CB.  They're not magical OP ships, they're a PITA to run effectively.  Yes, good players do hate the leverage that they can bring, but as we've seen, most of the top clans don't like CVs because they HAD to bring one that knew what they were doing, if the reds brought one.  Otherwise it was mediocre CV mediocre CV which really ended up having the ships take up the bulk of the work as complete squads were blapped into the sea.

There's issues with every class in the game, or some ship in it.  If we stick to the facts, we'll likely reach a similar opinion.  Injecting the nonsense however does the topic no justice and simply adds tires to the dumpster fire.  No need for it, especially from those who know better.

Edited by CV_Jeebies

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1 hour ago, eagle_lance said:

You do not seem to be in a typhoon or hurricane clan, therefore your opinion on the topic is invalid. Not sure how you can attempt to comment on something that you have zero experience with. 

Only one of those ships was a new addition to clan battles. This was the venezia's third season and the only reason it had one of the highest overall usage rates was its extreme effectiveness at long range, its ability to smoke cap, and its ability to mitigate cv damage with its smoke and fighter plane. The stalin has always been strong in cb but was exceptionally strong this season because of the lack of dds and the ability of a cv to dominate with spotting. 

The real mistake was adding cv's in their current form. It's bad enough how they are still awful to deal with in randoms, but the spotting and ability to do damage on demand is too overbearing in a smaller setting. The fact that it was a choice between a cv or a bb is extremely comical. The best solutions would be to either not allow cv's in cb, match cv teams against cv teams and bb teams against bb teams, or add mini-map spotting/delayed spotting similar to radar.  Wg appears to want to keep cv's in cv so the first option is out. The second option would not be possible as it would show that people do not enjoy cv's in cb and the usage rates would heavily favor bb comps creating awful queues for the cv teams. The third option would be optimal but Wg does not appear to want to go this route. So now all the skilled players sit and wait for the dreaded news that "everything is fine," "cv is good for game,"  and "to just dodge" in the next season of clan battles. 

None of your opinions will matter if you all choose to leave the game like the other countless "I am leaving because X is OP and bias" 

no one cotton onto the fact WG do not care about your opinion nor have they ever read the NA forum. 
Anything they want from the English speaking community is gathered from reddit. 

 

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Overwhelming majority didn't want CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority didn't like CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority does not want CVs in CBs moving forward.

The support for these statements is everywhere online: here, reddit, discord, in game.

Yet pro-CV, um, individuals continue to keep their heads, handful of them there are, firmly entrenched in the sand about CVs. It's trolling. Full stop.

 

Edited by Lt_Newcastle
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7 minutes ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Overwhelming majority didn't want CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority didn't like CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority does not want CVs in CBs moving forward.

The support for these statements is everywhere online: here, reddit, discord, in game.

Yet pro-CV, um, individuals continue to keep their heads, handful of them there are, firmly entrenched in the sand about CVs. It's trolling. Full stop.

 

Completely true dude.

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6 hours ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Overwhelming majority didn't want CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority didn't like CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority does not want CVs in CBs moving forward.

The support for these statements is everywhere online: here, reddit, discord, in game.

Yet pro-CV, um, individuals continue to keep their heads, handful of them there are, firmly entrenched in the sand about CVs. It's trolling. Full stop.

Forgot one....
Overwhelming majority didn't bring an effective CV to the battle.

This wasn't unique to CBs, the previous brawls with CV saw a good majority of top clans getting smashed with competent CVs in 4v4 and 5v5 

Edited by CV_Jeebies

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R-F made hurricane with a heroic effort in the last night of the season.  By that metric, it was a successful season for us.

I do not claim any credit personally. I'm a DD main, and it didn't take us long to figure out that even the strongest AA DD in the game was still a liability.  I took a two month break in part because of my recognition of how unneeded I was for the clan battle season. Funny how adding one class made two other classes handicaps to the clan battle lineup. 

But we made hurricane! We'd come up short the past couple seasons so you'd expect people to be happy, but instead, it's like we collectively passed a kidney stone. Are we feeling triumphant? No. It was painful as hell, we're just glad we successfully got through it, and we hope to never have to again. 

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8 minutes ago, Brhinosaurus said:

R-F made hurricane with a heroic effort in the last night of the season.  By that metric, it was a successful season for us.

I do not claim any credit personally. I'm a DD main, and it didn't take us long to figure out that even the strongest AA DD in the game was still a liability.  I took a two month break in part because of my recognition of how unneeded I was for the clan battle season. Funny how adding one class made two other classes handicaps to the clan battle lineup. 

But we made hurricane! We'd come up short the past couple seasons so you'd expect people to be happy, but instead, it's like we collectively passed a kidney stone. Are we feeling triumphant? No. It was painful as hell, we're just glad we successfully got through it, and we hope to never have to again. 

Congrats, our DD main is still MIA.  We were going to push for it, but all of alpha didn't show up in time for the final weekend and it was decided to give everyone a chance to get rewards.  We were typhoon 2 79 before it was try to get rewards mode for others -- I had them so sat out and we slid to 3 / 30....

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11 hours ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

Overwhelming majority didn't want CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority didn't like CVs in CBs.

Overwhelming majority does not want CVs in CBs moving forward.

The support for these statements is everywhere online: here, reddit, discord, in game.

Yet pro-CV, um, individuals continue to keep their heads, handful of them there are, firmly entrenched in the sand about CVs. It's trolling. Full stop.

 

I've gone grey trying to spread this gospel only to get stomped by the CV-defense league.  I've appealed to CC's and WG themselves and all they ever retort with it "But playership numbers are way up so clans must have liked CV's in clan battles".  I give up...

 

You are right though, there is a mountain of evidence to support not liking CV's in competitive is the majority opinion.  As others have said, our opinions don't matter.

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