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Herr_Reitz

Bot carriers in PVE are stupid

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Today I rode along with a bot carrier in a PVE match. Which of course means I had already been splashed by the reds. Sort of on purpose. I wanted to see what the carrier did with its planes. 

Not much really. Flew past red BBs then dropped torps far too close to the target, not once, but three times. IMO, having such a ship playing is really worse than not having it play. Oh, I realize they are there for folks to get the shoot-down credits but seriously, put a little bite into those teeth. 

By the way... one of the reasons I enjoy playing CVs has to do with the battle view you get. There is not a lot of free-time with a carrier, but wow do you get to see a lot. Far too many players showing broadsides. Folks pushing when they (probably) know better. The clusters are interesting too... as if indecision were a tropical storm that has trapped three or four players together. 

But back to topic... I for one would like a little bit more "battle awareness" plugged into bot carriers please. What do you think? tia

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Honestly, bot AI is horrendous across the board. I really wish they would upgrade all of it so it is actually challenging and give decent rewards. CV bot AI is pretty much the stupidest of the bunch and that is saying a lot. 

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On the flip side, the dumb bot CV would most likely not take any damage or kills away from ze hooman playa (lol), because of its incompetence... lel. :Smile_hiding:

Imagine if the bot CV was actually smart and capable, and taking damage and kills before the humans even make it to the front line. I'd imagine some people complaining that they're "not getting their share of the pie" so to speak... lul. :Smile_trollface:

Just saying, that's all... lal. :Smile_hiding:

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27 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Today I rode along with a bot carrier in a PVE match. Which of course means I had already been splashed by the reds. Sort of on purpose. I wanted to see what the carrier did with its planes. 

Not much really. Flew past red BBs then dropped torps far too close to the target, not once, but three times. IMO, having such a ship playing is really worse than not having it play. Oh, I realize they are there for folks to get the shoot-down credits but seriously, put a little bite into those teeth. 

By the way... one of the reasons I enjoy playing CVs has to do with the battle view you get. There is not a lot of free-time with a carrier, but wow do you get to see a lot. Far too many players showing broadsides. Folks pushing when they (probably) know better. The clusters are interesting too... as if indecision were a tropical storm that has trapped three or four players together. 

But back to topic... I for one would like a little bit more "battle awareness" plugged into bot carriers please. What do you think? tia

 

16 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Honestly, bot AI is horrendous across the board. I really wish they would upgrade all of it so it is actually challenging and give decent rewards. CV bot AI is pretty much the stupidest of the bunch and that is saying a lot. 

Can you imagine the outcry if WG did add more awareness into bot CV's? I agree that those bot CV are worse than human noobs...

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You know what was really stupid? I went into Co-Op to finish a quick mission and one guy was telling the bot CV what to do even after we pointed out that it was a bot. He insisted that they listened.

So I said, 'CV, please TK Player XYZ'. 

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Green bot CV brings red bot CV and lets us do plane farming missions in co-op. This is its purpose. :Smile_trollface:

I understand there might be difficulty programming the rocket fighter attack logic, but I cannot for the life of me understand why bombers and torpedo planes cannot be as competent as once they were. Yes, the squadron has to be managed differently, but surely an auto attack is an auto attack regardless of how many planes are making it?

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The AI has slowly been gaining competence with aircraft attacks.  

At first, the slightest turn would cause the AI to repeatedly abort and try to come around again, with all three types.  Now, they actually make the drops, and if you do nothing to evade, some of those drops will hit. 

The real problem that the AI has, is that it can't evade flak, so it loses planes far faster than even a fairly competent human CV pilot.  

This stark contrast is part of what illustrates just how bad the current AA system is -- not OP, not UP, just bad -- with too much of the damage from AA tied up in the flak bursts and the flak bursts too easily evaded.  

 

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You should see the bot BBs in sub battles. Just derping around randomly firing at the nearest ship even if it's 50m down. You'd think WG would program some objective play into them. But maybe they just wanted them to be as close to real players as possible.

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I would love them to be more intelligent.

Atm when playing a DD in Co-Op I have the AA off and can dodge the first attack that usually overshoots. Because I have not raced forward and also stayed in the vicinity of my cruisers, both my AA (now on) and the friendly cruiser AA destroys the planes. AA goes off again, and I now move out a little further to spot.

The real danger does not come from the planes with the first attack, but rather the 3-4 ships that are firing at you because you are spotted. (Watch how as soon as you are spotted, all those ships luckily happened to have had their guns aimed in your direction! :Smile_teethhappy:).

 

At some point the planes will come back and it is at this point where the bots are closer (along with their very good aim), that I either have to smoke or use an island for cover and dodge again. And so on. Depending if I have not paid attention, if I am in a slow DD, then I may get caught by enemy fire (maybe even a rocket! (but rarely). The good thing is the enemy ships have now got many ships in view.

 

I certainly hope if the AI is improved the CV will realise a pew-pew DD, not even close to being in range of guns or torps to fire at it - is not the main threat and it is in fact the 3 larger ships on its doorstep ripping it a new aft station that are the main threats! :Smile_Default:

Edited by _WaveRider_

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I suppose that the only reason to have a bot CV on the human team is so people can get plane kills other wise I can't see a reason to throw one on the human team in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

Honestly, bot AI is horrendous across the board. I really wish they would upgrade all of it so it is actually challenging and give decent rewards. CV bot AI is pretty much the stupidest of the bunch and that is saying a lot. 

They did actually give it a pretty big upgrade not too long ago. I very rarely play Co-Op, but it was clear the CV AI seems particularly bad - especially in the way that it chooses planes, sticking to the same group even as it runs out of them and can only send 1 or 2 at a time.

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This isn’t anything really new but, if true deep learning AI was introduced to WoW’s. Coop would go from a cake walk to impossible. It would be unbeatable. If true deep learning AI was introduced to the King of the Sea tournament. The winner would be congratulated in 0’s and 1’s.

Hey, a idea to make coop more fun, if WG introduced some safe trash talk from the bot team. Kind of like when playing Mortal Kombat when you faced Shao Kahn. Sometimes he would taunt. Like if you tried a move and it failed he would put his hands on his hips and laugh at you.

 

https://newatlas.com/ai-2017-beating-humans-games/52741/

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Bot CVs are there for no other reason than free plane kills, nothing more

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2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The AI has slowly been gaining competence with aircraft attacks.  

you must seeing different bot CVs than me, because all the ones i see miss everything by a country mile

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I remember a time when the AI cv bot go down the middle of the map every single time with rest of the fleet

 

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16 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

you must seeing different bot CVs than me, because all the ones i see miss everything by a country mile

I'm seeing a fair number of torpedo drops that are at least competent enough to force the target player to turn/evade, and rockets and bombs hitting players who are cowering behind a rock enough to matter.    

 

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42 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

rockets and bombs hitting players who are cowering behind a rock enough to matter.

thats more due to the player than the bot knowing how to aim

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6 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

thats more due to the player than the bot knowing how to aim

1) I've seen players who can't hit a stationary target with drops. 

2) The bots used to miss those drops almost 100% of the time. 

 

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5 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

Honestly, bot AI is horrendous across the board. I really wish they would upgrade all of it so it is actually challenging and give decent rewards. CV bot AI is pretty much the stupidest of the bunch and that is saying a lot. 

If you want to see what the Bot CV AI can really do, go to Training Room and play against Hard AI CVs.

 

I used to be able to take a Shimakaze in Training Room against three Tier X Hard AI CVs and whip them.  Different thing altogether now.

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

1) I've seen players who can't hit a stationary target with drops. 

2) The bots used to miss those drops almost 100% of the time. 

 

^^^^^^ This.

It used to be you could straight line sail and take zero damage.  Now you at least have to pretend to use A and D.

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Leave the bot CVs be, they serve a purpose... something to bolster my damage totals in the end game.

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The first time I encountered a bot GZ in a co-op match, it was a surprise. I was sailing Graf Spee and figured I'd get close to it and take a look and then torp it. Well, the entire way towards it, I was getting hit with ACCURATE fire from its secondaries as well as having to dodge constant 3 torp spreads from its torpedo bombers (they were dropped accurately and at the correct distance). I did eventually kill it, but I was almost dead in the process and I would not have made it in a ship without a heal, I don't think. I'm personally glad the CVs at lower tier co-cop matches are not like that. It was like trying to assault a Death Star. 

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1 hour ago, HamAndCheez said:

It was like trying to assault a Death Star. 

Maybe for idiots like me they need a Death Star mode in coop... I like a lot of the other thoughts/suggestions here as well. 

I've always hoped PVE could be more of a middle point between easy-peasy like these bot CVs and something like what you described.

How sweet would it be if you could simply select the level of adversity desired? Higher the difficult, the better the rewards? Would it sell? tia

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Maybe for idiots like me they need a Death Star mode in coop... I like a lot of the other thoughts/suggestions here as well. 

I've always hoped PVE could be more of a middle point between easy-peasy like these bot CVs and something like what you described.

How sweet would it be if you could simply select the level of adversity desired? Higher the difficult, the better the rewards? Would it sell? tia

Basically, it sounds like you want something similar to what I am looking for. That is, a single-player version of warships. Like other single player games, you could choose the difficulty and mission, etc. I'd buy a game like that in a second. And yes, I've tried Naval PC games like Silent Hunter and Cold Waters, but they're not the same as WoWs. If you ever get a chance, try to get an opportunity to 1v1 a bot GZ. It's a lot of fun.

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2 hours ago, HamAndCheez said:

a single-player version of warships. Like other single player games, you could choose the difficulty and mission, etc. I'd buy a game like that in a second.

Just in case WoWS wasn't aware of an upcoming competitor, I submit for your consideration something upcoming by a very old publisher, Microprose. A very old name in computer gaming software. 

I don't believe it will be "like" WoWS as, by it's name, it sounds more like CnC of one (or more?) task force(s). 

But yes, I think there is a market for exactly what you are wanting. Fact is, they "could" build a whole separate environment (biome), maybe even charge a small subscriber fee, for what you want. They have all the assets needed already, just a few tweaks here and there, a few long-term campaigns for a single player, random battles as we have here... Larger maps alone would draw people like flies to carrion. 

As that's unlikely... I just like imagining it all, y' know? 

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