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Admiral_Thrawn_1

Wargaming is Creating Some Severe Imbalances

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Now I have long taken Radar in stride since most of it has been 10km Ranged or less and only select ships that kept radar numbers down. With only ships like Stalingrad and Moskava having the 12km ranged Radar. And I think a couple other RU cruisers having over 10km ranged Radar. But now we have many additional cruisers tier 8-10  which means the 12km Radar now will extend into tier 6. This will put even greater pressure on DDs, and some cruisers not to mention the general intel data such Radar can give on a flank with 1 ship with that radar and now we have multiples running around.

More hardships to DDs aside, which will have ripple effects if subs are added to Randoms with these conditions. There is also the matter of newer players that will try learning the game having to run into the 12km Radar which seems a bit excessive to me as not only is the radar proliferation increasing, but so is the radar range. Then of course add in other elements such as CVs and such.

So just wondering if I am the only one concerned about this for overall health of the game? I mean subs are already threatening BBs unless ASW gets better spread. And we are now looking at the sub hunters getting less popular now as well. Today I have seen an unusual decrease in DD numbers particularly for a weekend, when some battles having no DDs what so ever in them.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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Chappayev had 12km (11.6km) radar from day one

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4 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Chappayev had 12km (11.6km) radar from day one

Chappy couldn't come within 15km though or else it was curtains. Now the new line has full ice breaker so they can get in much closer to abuse the radar.

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15 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Now I have long taken Radar in stride since most of it has been 10km Ranged or less and only select ships that kept radar numbers down. With only ships like Stalingrad and Moskava having the 12km ranged Radar. And I think a couple other RU cruisers having over 10km ranged Radar. But now we have many additional cruisers tier 8-10  which means the 12km Radar now will extend into tier 6. This will put even greater pressure on DDs, and some cruisers not to mention the general intel data such Radar can give on a flank with 1 ship with that radar and now we have multiples running around.

More hardships to DDs aside, which will have ripple effects if subs are added to Randoms with these conditions. There is also the matter of newer players that will try learning the game having to run into the 12km Radar which seems a bit excessive to me as not only is the radar proliferation increasing, but so is the radar range. Then of course add in other elements such as CVs and such.

So just wondering if I am the only one concerned about this for overall health of the game? I mean subs are already threatening BBs unless ASW gets better spread. And we are now looking at the sub hunters getting less popular now as well. Today I have seen an unusual decrease in DD numbers particularly for a weekend, whither some battles having no DDs what so ever in them.

Love your post grand admiral Thrawn,  don't forget the slava balance 😂. But you are right dds, can have it rough. And will if subs are introduced poorly.

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I can't say that I am a big fan of more radars, especially when the lower tier DDs have 10 km torps at best (unless I am forgetting something).

If this continues, the game will develop a 10-12 km shipless zone between the two teams because it is suicide to get any closer. This should lead to longer games since people will long range snipe. However, the few DDs with 12+ km range torps may be able to benefit from this kind of gameplay. Personally, I think it is kind of boring. I would much rather have games like in the lower tiers where people just charge in without worrying too much about the outcome. Or at least it used to be like that.

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Power creep... Plane and simple...

We the community care more for power creep products then a fair fight/game/match...

Its not going to change as long as Sub and the CEO of Lesta are running things,.

Edited by Navalpride33
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All Russian ships have created an imbalance from the time they were introduced and it's not going to change for them.

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34 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Now I have long taken Radar in stride since most of it has been 10km Ranged or less and only select ships that kept radar numbers down. With only ships like Stalingrad and Moskava having the 12km ranged Radar. And I think a couple other RU cruisers having over 10km ranged Radar. But now we have many additional cruisers tier 8-10  which means the 12km Radar now will extend into tier 6. This will put even greater pressure on DDs, and some cruisers not to mention the general intel data such Radar can give on a flank with 1 ship with that radar and now we have multiples running around.

More hardships to DDs aside, which will have ripple effects if subs are added to Randoms with these conditions. There is also the matter of newer players that will try learning the game having to run into the 12km Radar which seems a bit excessive to me as not only is the radar proliferation increasing, but so is the radar range. Then of course add in other elements such as CVs and such.

So just wondering if I am the only one concerned about this for overall health of the game? I mean subs are already threatening BBs unless ASW gets better spread. And we are now looking at the sub hunters getting less popular now as well. Today I have seen an unusual decrease in DD numbers particularly for a weekend, whither some battles having no DDs what so ever in them.

CV's & subs cause a much great imbalance in the realm of DD's than radar.

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This is like all the complaining when the USN Cruiser Split went Live.

"All these new Radar Cruisers!"

Except there's only so many ship slots per team.  In addition, there will be a spike of the new ships, but as with all new Ship Line releases, the numbers go back down.  Even USN Cruiser play went down after the newness of the Line wore off, and this is NA server.

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20 second 12km radar doesnt bother me, I only have to dodge two shots from you and one from the only team mate you have that pays attention.

I will make exit plans however when near a 50 second 10km radar.

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On 6/14/2020 at 12:25 AM, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

Chappy couldn't come within 15km though or else it was curtains. Now the new line has full ice breaker so they can get in much closer to abuse the radar.

Exactly so not only do they have radar, it’s long ranged, the hull is well armored, well armed, highly mobile, and good concealment. Meanwhile other cruisers are either lacking radar or else making some sizable trade offs at mid tier that balance things out.

So like take Stalingrad for example the location of those ships is often generally known if not precisely known. And while the bow armor is strong the sides are weak and they do not maneuver well. Unlike these new ships.

 

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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44 minutes ago, Dareios said:

20 second 12km radar doesnt bother me, I only have to dodge two shots from you and one from the only team mate you have that pays attention.

I will make exit plans however when near a 50 second 10km radar.

Add in the radar mod and the enemy team sequencing that radar with half a dozen cruisers... Yes 1 stock ship of these new cruisers yes absolutely no problem my DD can dodge the fire and perhaps survive a couple hits. But it’s the radar one after the next that gets you.

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8 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Exactly so not only do they have radar, it’s long ranged, the hull is well armored, well armed, highly mobile, and good concealment. Meanwhile other cruisers are either lacking radar or ease making some sizable trade offs at mid tier that balance things out.

So like take Stalingrad for example the location of those ships is often generally known if not precisely known. And while the bow armor is strong the sides are weak and they do not maneuver well. Unlike these new ships.

 

Riga is capable of doing stealth radar, while a rather small window it means that a DD won't be spotting a Riga before it's in the radar range.

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32 minutes ago, Vader_Sama said:

Riga is capable of doing stealth radar, while a rather small window it means that a DD won't be spotting a Riga before it's in the radar range.

And that is a major problem for at least so of the DDs that lack both torpedo and gun range to reach the radar cruiser without being well inside the radar range.

One solution could be to counter the expansion of the radar is to give more DDs 12km torpedoes as an option which would still mean going into potential radar range to use but would counter balance things a bit more than now. Although reducing the radar problem at the source would be more beneficial than buffing a lot of DDs. Main thing that would help would be to reduce the radar range of those new RU CAs down to 10km or else remove it, which I am certain RU CA players will not want the radar removed so the range reduction would be the more likely idea.

Unless something changes with so many CVs out and about if you have CVs, these new cruisers, and at some point subs it will mean DDs will get pretty much perma slotted and sunk. Then no ASW and the BBs and CAs get to fall. Pretty soon your battle line up will be subs, CVs, CAs and maybe some DDs and / or BBs. DD players that enjoy using torpedoes will be forced either to play low tier or else us subs. As it is I often have been having to push my DDs to their limits in some battles this weekend before giving up to use CA and BB.

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52 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

 

Dude...why are you posting like somebody that just started playing yesterday?

RU cruisers are new...2 patches in the future they will be down to 1 or 2 (if any) per battle just like any other ship type.

Subs aren't in random battles yet & are just in the 1st wave of open testing with many more rounds of testing before they are released.

The way testing works is to make the new ships as easy as possible to play so they can get massive amounts of players testing them at once to get as much data as possible about how easy the basic mechanics are for new players (something they can not get from seperated server or PTS server where a limited amount of players play the minimum number of battles to get their goodies & go).

Were you here for 0.8.0...that was a perfect example of making a new ship easy to play for testing purposes...same as main server sub test round 1.

Proclaiming "severe imbalance" for a new line release & a 1st round test mode is kinda premature isn't it?

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2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Now I have long taken Radar in stride since most of it has been 10km Ranged or less and only select ships that kept radar numbers down.

Kept radar numbers down?

I remember doing a post over a year to two years ago, where I noted a Tier VII DD had in its 'match bracket' 12 radar ships and 42 hydro ships that it could face. This number has only grown.

I have no issue with new gimmicks/challenges added to game, if done properly! I think additional challenges can be good for the game.

 

But whenyou get too many radar, too many fire spammers, too many torps, too many CV/aircraft in a match, it can lead to lopsided matches.

WG have failed in this area of balancing, and I believe this is what prevents ships from carrying out their 'generic' roles. If you have many ships that can't function the way they are supposed to, then you're more likely to get steam rolls. :Smile_honoring: 

Edited by _WaveRider_

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This is why if I play DD, it’s usually French. The Marceau even has legit AA. I started to realize at Mogador you can bait or escape radar range real quick. But if you take any one out that isn’t Marceau pray there isn’t a CV.

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43 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Kept radar numbers down?

I remember doing a post over a year to two years ago, where I noted a Tier VII DD had in its 'match bracket' 12 radar ships and 42 hydro ships that it could face. This number has only grown.

I have no issue with new gimmicks/challenges added to game, if done properly! I think additional challenges can be good for the game.

 

But whenyou get too many radar, too many fire spammers, too many torps, too many CV/aircraft in a match, it can lead to lopsided matches.

WG have failed in this area of balancing, and I believe this is what prevents ships from carrying out their 'generic' roles. If you have many ships that can't function the way they are supposed to, then you're more likely to get steam rolls. :Smile_honoring: 

But many of the ship lines such as Italian, German, Japanese, French, and mostly the British all lack radar. (British Light Cruisers tend to prefer smoke over radar most of the time.) And the remaining radar ships have not created 24km wide radar bubble. Hence the reason I said they had kept the numbers of radar ships down.

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51 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Dude...why are you posting like somebody that just started playing yesterday?

RU cruisers are new...2 patches in the future they will be down to 1 or 2 (if any) per battle just like any other ship type.

Subs aren't in random battles yet & are just in the 1st wave of open testing with many more rounds of testing before they are released.

The way testing works is to make the new ships as easy as possible to play so they can get massive amounts of players testing them at once to get as much data as possible about how easy the basic mechanics are for new players (something they can not get from seperated server or PTS server where a limited amount of players play the minimum number of battles to get their goodies & go).

Were you here for 0.8.0...that was a perfect example of making a new ship easy to play for testing purposes...same as main server sub test round 1.

Proclaiming "severe imbalance" for a new line release & a 1st round test mode is kinda premature isn't it?

I am aware of the typical rush of new ships and everyone wanting to use them phenomena. If my point was being made over the current conditions then you would have a point, but it’s far from it. I am looking ahead to if subs get added that the game would reach the breaking point. And things might not be so good even before then. I am sure you have noticed just how many Moskava and Stalingrad you see in tier X battles? The reason players love those things so much is aside from their offensive / defensive capabilities is the fact they carry 12km Radar, which makes then very popular. Now just imagine if that radar extends down to tier 8 cruisers that get to spend half their time in tier 6 and 7 battles...

You likely see my point now. There is now no escaping that radar unless you play tier 5 or below if these new cruisers catch on in the same manner as the Moskava and Stalingrad have, and at least those 2 CAs have big enough detection ranges for DDs to often avoid.

Once subs hit to further increase spotting of DDs you will not even get DDs to play even if you payed them doubloons. Which currently the subs alone can make a DD rather miserable if they can’t manage to locate and sink the subs pretty much immediately and if the sub’s allies are alert they will fire at the DD. And this is made even worse if there is 1 or more CVs. Then you add in the 12km Radar and things are really bad. So it’s a combination of things I am predicting that will cause the severe imbalances, and trying to warn of it now so just maybe we can avoid problems ahead of time instead of waiting weeks, months or years after a problem gets bad. Because the game could easily collapse because of this.

No DDs means no BBs if subs are in game. No BBs or DDs means no CLs as they will have nobody to hunt or burn down. That just leaves the CAs, Subs, and CVs and at least a portion of the CAs will not want to deal with subs either.

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Maybe this will just force a meta change in how destroyers are played?  If they can't charge the caps or try to sneak around the flanks, maybe they will set up as pickets for the battleships.  The subs spot and the cruiser contest caps supported by the destroyers and fire support from the battleships (air cover by carriers), instead of the destroyers rushing, with or without cruiser support.

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You guys need to stop with the Russian Bias stuff. Frankly, the USN lines have some of the most broken ships in the game. Enterprise is practically a T10 CV at T8. Massachusetts is a T9 BB at T8. Georgia is a T10 BB at T9. Benham is the most broken torp boat in the game. Black gets radar AND USN smoke. Then you have Missouri and Alaska. Missouri, ONLY BB in the game with Radar. Alaska is the best Super cruiser in the game. That gets to stomp on T7 half the time. Worcester? The most utility focused ship in the game. There is almost NOTHING it can't do. Gearing and DM has been constant mainstays of competitive play in WoWs since it started. Just stop using Russian Bias as an excuse. 

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15 minutes ago, Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV said:

You guys need to stop with the Russian Bias stuff

Its hard to do that when, you have the Nevsky have a 4km reach advantage against the DM,  6km range adv. against the Smolensk.

The Nevsky is the only cruiser with 1000m/s Shell Velocity for both AP and HE...

This thing is a tier 10 KUTUZOV easy... From long range, this thing can still pen or do fire DMG easy... If I am a BB driver, I would not be happy seeing more HE spam from 19km away, with danm good accuracy.

Edited by Navalpride33
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the OP is thinking in terms of the 'ecosystem' of ships, not just individual ships interactions, he's damn right! Now, remember that Lesta use ships' unbalance as a revenue engine...(creating unnecessary needs that are adjusted with additional unnecessary needs)...and we keep spending happily, don't we?

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20 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

But many of the ship lines such as Italian, German, Japanese, French, and mostly the British all lack radar. (British Light Cruisers tend to prefer smoke over radar most of the time.) And the remaining radar ships have not created 24km wide radar bubble. Hence the reason I said they had kept the numbers of radar ships down.

So you believe that a Tier VII DD could face up to 12 different radar ships and that 40+ ships had Hydro in their match bracket is keeping the numbers down? And as stated that was a year or so ago, there is bound to be a greater ratio now.

That design along with the increase in gun boat DDs is centred around DDs killing each other of early in match (but it is a design WG must have wanted in order to cement the role and ability of the DD in game).

 

I really don't look at it being a nation issue, or even a gimmick issue, - but rather the numbers you can get in a match issue, that can completely mess with balance (and this is a game after all, where you want both sides to generally have a balanced chance of winning at the start).

It is this balance and the fact that you can have just too many planes, too many spammers, too many torps, too many radar -too many whatever, where one side can overwhelm another  in numbers of certain gimmicks that can completely shut down a ship from its role that I think WG have failed to get a grasp of. :Smile_honoring:

 

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