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Grachuss

Damage Disparity

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I'm playing a German VII GNEISENAU Battleship and I've noticed whenever I fire a Salvo at an enemy ship I do maybe 1500 damage, but when they fire back at me they do 8000-16000 dmg.  It doesn't matter if they're moving or not.  Also, if I fire at them they seem to know the exact course to take to get all my shots to fall in the water.  This leads me to believe one of three things:

1.  I suck

2.  My equipment sucks

3.  There is some cheating hack that I am not aware of.

 

Anyone know what I doing wrong?

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2 minutes ago, Grachuss said:

Anyone know what I doing wrong?

Post a recent reply, with everyone locked up... You'll have a lot of diverse opinions or POV from the same replay.

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13 minutes ago, Grachuss said:

It doesn't matter if they're moving or not

Correct, moving does not affect accuracy.

As for your low damage output, that could be a lot of reasons. Looking at your profile you are a very new player, so you're still learning the mechanics. It could be your aim is not quite good enough yet, or you're hitting the wrong part of the enemy ship. I see you mention Gneisenau, which only has 6 guns and mediocre accuracy, so reliably landing lots of shells is not a thing she's good at.

As for enemy's high damage on you, again several things could be happening. But again looking at your low battle count, you're likely showing a lot of broadside, which makes you vulnerable.

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You definitely don't suck! The damage mechanics are fairly complicated, but learning them will give you a huge leg up. 

The short version is this:  you're aiming at the wrong places on their ship, or you're engaging them from a range where you can't effectively hit the right places.

The long version:

1)  When you fire an AP shell, there are four primary outcomes - citadel, penetration, overpenetration, and bounce/shatter.  Citadels hit the enemy for the full listed damage of your shell, penetrations hit for 30%, and overpenetrations hit for 10%.  The numbers you're getting are roughly 10% of your shell damage which leads me to believe you're getting overpens.

2)  Overpens generally happen because you hit a weakly armored part of the enemy ship.  AP shells need to hit a certain effective thickness of armor to arm.  If the shells do not arm then they will never explode inside the ship and will always overpenetrate.  For Gneisenau, the required thickness is approximately 56mm or so.  This means hitting the bow/stern or superstructure of enemy ships will always result in overpenetrations unless the target is highly angled (which increases the effective thickness of their armor).  To solve this, aim for more heavily armored parts of the enemy ship, such as the main armor belt.  This usually is at waterline from the front of the front turrets to the back of the rear turrets.

3) Gneisenau is covered with heavy armor.  The German BBs have a distributed armor scheme that makes them nigh-impossible to citadel, but also allows enemies to easy get regular penetrations that hit for 30% damage instead if you're broadside.  On the other hand, this armor scheme has advantages related to overmatch protection but I'll leave that out for now.  What you need to know is that your ship protects you from getting insta-deleted but in exchange for being more vulnerable to regular damage.  If enemies are hitting you for 9-18k this means you're probably sailing broadside to them and taking multiple penetrating hits from battleship caliber shells.  To solve this, don't sail broadside and instead present a heavy angle towards/away from the enemy.  You don't need to have all your turrets trained on the enemy until it's time to fire!  Wiggling is an important skill.

4) Movement doesn't affect accuracy.  This might be counter intuitive if you came from tanks or another shooter game.

5) Gneisenau is a pretty inaccurate ship.  Having only 6 guns means that often you'll miss even with good aim, but it also means it's easier to dodge your shells.  Enemies who are paying attention to when you fire can will most likely be able to avoid your shots unless you're within 12km or so.

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29 minutes ago, Kenjister said:

Enemies who are paying attention to when you fire can will most likely be able to avoid your shots unless you're within 12km or so.

In addition.  I'd like to add that range range down to 6km.  RNG also contributes to the 'math'.

 

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1 hour ago, Kenjister said:

You definitely don't suck! The damage mechanics are fairly complicated, but learning them will give you a huge leg up. 

The short version is this:  you're aiming at the wrong places on their ship, or you're engaging them from a range where you can't effectively hit the right places.

The long version:

1)  When you fire an AP shell, there are four primary outcomes - citadel, penetration, overpenetration, and bounce/shatter.  Citadels hit the enemy for the full listed damage of your shell, penetrations hit for 30%, and overpenetrations hit for 10%.  The numbers you're getting are roughly 10% of your shell damage which leads me to believe you're getting overpens.

2)  Overpens generally happen because you hit a weakly armored part of the enemy ship.  AP shells need to hit a certain effective thickness of armor to arm.  If the shells do not arm then they will never explode inside the ship and will always overpenetrate.  For Gneisenau, the required thickness is approximately 56mm or so.  This means hitting the bow/stern or superstructure of enemy ships will always result in overpenetrations unless the target is highly angled (which increases the effective thickness of their armor).  To solve this, aim for more heavily armored parts of the enemy ship, such as the main armor belt.  This usually is at waterline from the front of the front turrets to the back of the rear turrets.

3) Gneisenau is covered with heavy armor.  The German BBs have a distributed armor scheme that makes them nigh-impossible to citadel, but also allows enemies to easy get regular penetrations that hit for 30% damage instead if you're broadside.  On the other hand, this armor scheme has advantages related to overmatch protection but I'll leave that out for now.  What you need to know is that your ship protects you from getting insta-deleted but in exchange for being more vulnerable to regular damage.  If enemies are hitting you for 9-18k this means you're probably sailing broadside to them and taking multiple penetrating hits from battleship caliber shells.  To solve this, don't sail broadside and instead present a heavy angle towards/away from the enemy.  You don't need to have all your turrets trained on the enemy until it's time to fire!  Wiggling is an important skill.

4) Movement doesn't affect accuracy.  This might be counter intuitive if you came from tanks or another shooter game.

5) Gneisenau is a pretty inaccurate ship.  Having only 6 guns means that often you'll miss even with good aim, but it also means it's easier to dodge your shells.  Enemies who are paying attention to when you fire can will most likely be able to avoid your shots unless you're within 12km or so.

Excellent post. You did leave out HE vs AP. Shooting AP at an angled, armored target yields very little damage. Shooting HE at a burning, damage saturated target is also bad.  Knowing when to switch and to anticipate switching is a learned skill,. 212 battles to the Gneis may be a bit rushed.

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12 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Excellent post. You did leave out HE vs AP. Shooting AP at an angled, armored target yields very little damage. Shooting HE at a burning, damage saturated target is also bad.  Knowing when to switch and to anticipate switching is a learned skill,. 212 battles to the Gneis may be a bit rushed.

True true,  I figured I'd focus on the answers to the OP's immediate question but HE and angling is very valuable to know.

For the OP, here's the relevant clips from the "How it works" series, which details the game mechanics pretty well.  If you have time I'd recommend checking them all out!

and

 

 

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1 hour ago, Grachuss said:

I'm playing a German VII GNEISENAU Battleship and I've noticed whenever I fire a Salvo at an enemy ship I do maybe 1500 damage, but when they fire back at me they do 8000-16000 dmg.  It doesn't matter if they're moving or not.  Also, if I fire at them they seem to know the exact course to take to get all my shots to fall in the water.  This leads me to believe one of three things:

1.  I suck

2.  My equipment sucks

3.  There is some cheating hack that I am not aware of.

 

Anyone know what I doing wrong?

A major mistake newer players will make is considering all ships of even the same class to be equal. And there are some thing about German ships that make them both strong and weak. But the same can be said about anything.

Anyway the thing about German Battleships is their armor is meant for mid range to close range fights, so the close they get the stronger their armor is basically. Now their guns are balanced for this style of fighting where they are only accurate out to about 16km with much closer ranges being preferable. They also have very good secondary guns that can be upgraded with captain skills and modules to make them absolutely ferocious monsters at close range fighting.

There is a danger hidden in their armor though, if you try shooting long range where you score little to no hits, counter attacks made by enemy ships will be able to deal more damage thanks to your armor being specially designed for close range fights. Not sure if your awar of What citadel is or not, but it’s the vital machinery area of a warship and you get major damage scores if your shells breach the other armor and then breach that innermost armor. On German BBs they have something called “Turtleback” citadel armor where instead of being flat topped and sided it’s armor has slopes that will bounce shells at close range off the slopes, but are perfectly angled for penetration at long range.

So if I were to guess at what your doing wrong it would be this. Also German Battleships are very temperamental and require high point captains to reach their full potential, like using the secondary guns I mentioned. So I would not go so far as to say you suck, just that you are new and having to learn just like every single one of have had to do. 

 

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By the amount of battles and the problem you have, it looks like the tier VII is too much for you. I suggest to play more in lower tiers to learn the basics like aim, evasion, concelament, disengage and then go back to 7. Until level 5 you can play almost safely

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2 hours ago, Kenjister said:

Citadels hit the enemy for the full listed damage of your shell, penetrations hit for 30%, and overpenetrations hit for 10%.

I need help too! I don't understand how you guys do it.
This is what I get:
1. Overpens hit for 10%.
2. Penetrations hit for 10%. Maybe one out of every 10-20 I get 20-30%.
3. Citadels hit for about 30%. Maybe 1 out of every 100-200 I get full damage.

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3 hours ago, Grachuss said:

I'm playing a German VII GNEISENAU Battleship and I've noticed whenever I fire a Salvo at an enemy ship I do maybe 1500 damage, but when they fire back at me they do 8000-16000 dmg.  It doesn't matter if they're moving or not.  Also, if I fire at them they seem to know the exact course to take to get all my shots to fall in the water.  This leads me to believe one of three things:

1.  I suck

2.  My equipment sucks

3.  There is some cheating hack that I am not aware of.

 

Anyone know what I doing wrong?

Well, I can assure you it isn't 2 or 3.

I have the Gneisenau and it is easily my favorite battleship in the game.

Honestly, and don't take this wrong, but someone should start "getting it" by the time they get into a tier VII battleship.  Rushing up the tree to get to tier X as fast as possible doesn't help.  The faster you try getting there, the worse off you'll be.

You're certainly doing something wrong but no one can really help without actually seeing a replay.

 

Edited by Kuckoo

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Way too much rng especially if you shooting at soviet ships yeah I said it so what :Smile_popcorn:

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41 minutes ago, z9_ said:

I need help too! I don't understand how you guys do it.
This is what I get:
1. Overpens hit for 10%.
2. Penetrations hit for 10%. Maybe one out of every 10-20 I get 20-30%.
3. Citadels hit for about 30%. Maybe 1 out of every 100-200 I get full damage.

Hmm... if you're getting penetrating hits that only do 10% damage it's likely due to the way the UI displays the ribbons vs how damage is applied.

Only hits to the ships HULL will do HP damage.  However, each module (secondary guns, main turrets, etc) has their own HP pool that is separate from hull HP.  If you do damage to a module it subtracts from the module HP and eventually that module will be incapacitated or permanently destroyed.

This causes issues when the modules occupy a separate hitbox from the hull.  Many modules are inside the hull (such as the magazines), and doing damage to the module damages the hull because it's part of the hull hitbox.  However many modules are on top of the hull, like secondary guns. It's possible to shoot a shell at the superstructure of a ship, overpen the superstructure, then have the shell detonate inside the hitbox of a gun.  Since the gun is not part of the hull the penetration damage is not applied to the ship, only the gun.  However you DID overpen the superstructure, which is why the 10% overpen damage is subtracted from ship HP.  But since you did technically penetrate armor and the shell exploded, the UI shows that as a penetrating hit.

And finally there's a possibility of UI bugs, but the vast majority of zero-damage penetrations or overpen-damage penetrating hits are due to modules located outside the hitbox of the ship.
If you get a citadel hit that doesn't do the max listed value of the shell as shown in port, then you have a bona fide bug that should be reported!

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

Correct, moving does not affect accuracy.

As for your low damage output, that could be a lot of reasons. Looking at your profile you are a very new player, so you're still learning the mechanics. It could be your aim is not quite good enough yet, or you're hitting the wrong part of the enemy ship. I see you mention Gneisenau, which only has 6 guns and mediocre accuracy, so reliably landing lots of shells is not a thing she's good at.

As for enemy's high damage on you, again several things could be happening. But again looking at your low battle count, you're likely showing a lot of broadside, which makes you vulnerable.

this ^^ all day every day

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4 hours ago, Grachuss said:

I'm playing a German VII GNEISENAU Battleship and I've noticed whenever I fire a Salvo at an enemy ship I do maybe 1500 damage, but when they fire back at me they do 8000-16000 dmg.  It doesn't matter if they're moving or not.  Also, if I fire at them they seem to know the exact course to take to get all my shots to fall in the water.  This leads me to believe one of three things:

1.  I suck

2.  My equipment sucks

3.  There is some cheating hack that I am not aware of.

 

Anyone know what I doing wrong?

Hi, welcome to WoWS. 

I think the posters above me, particularly Lert and Kenjister, have directly answered your questions quite well. 

Still, you may be interested in some of the guides I have pasted below. Also, I would be happy to division up with you in-game if you would like help with the Gneisenau, as it’s one of my favourite ships in the game. 

Good luck!

 

I strongly encourage you to read the following: 

  • How to set up your game client to get the information you need to win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSCb96CLCs4
  • (For brand New Players - a full comprehensive guide) iChase's How to get good at World of Warships - I wish this was around when I started!
  • (For New Players) - Wargaming's 'How It Works' series that explains the game's mechanics - important to learn these as it differs to real life.
  • (For New Players looking to become Intermediate) my Ship Role QuickReference Guide to understand how to get the best out of your ship every battle and how to deal with enemy ships of the same type. 
  • (For Intermediate players) LittleWhiteMouse's guide to How to take control of your win rate:  https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/75077-how-to-control-your-win-rate/
  • For players at any level who are interested in personalised feedback on a particular battle, get in touch with Lord_Zath and his replay centre - its an amazing service that you should take advantage of.  
  • You are under absolutely no obligation to spend money on this game - it is entirely free to play including at high tiers. 
    • Understanding the economics of WoWS and tips for playing as free-to-play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgwH2w-k7U
    • Still, if you are interested in buying a premium ship, a discussion on what premium ships are good value for newer players can be found on my New Player Guide Premium Ships for New Players.
      • The second post in this thread has some good advice on how to rapidly become a better player through teamwork and positioning - see Section 3 - its worth a read!

#StandardWords

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Thank you for all the responses.  I would shoot HE from long distance, then switch to AP when I got closer than 10km.  I see what I was doing wrong, as I would line up all my guns like a 17th century battle then fire side by side with me usually losing.

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39 minutes ago, Grachuss said:

Thank you for all the responses.  I would shoot HE from long distance, then switch to AP when I got closer than 10km.  I see what I was doing wrong, as I would line up all my guns like a 17th century battle then fire side by side with me usually losing.

Don't worry, we were all where you were at one point!  There's a lot of under the hood mechanics that the game doesn't force you to learn.

While throwing HE isn't necessarily bad, the penetration of gneis's guns aren't bad and you can definitely make use of AP from beyond 10km, especially vs cruisers and the like.

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17 hours ago, Kenjister said:

This causes issues when the modules occupy a separate hitbox from the hull.  Many modules are inside the hull (such as the magazines), and doing damage to the module damages the hull because it's part of the hull hitbox.  However many modules are on top of the hull, like secondary guns. It's possible to shoot a shell at the superstructure of a ship, overpen the superstructure, then have the shell detonate inside the hitbox of a gun.  Since the gun is not part of the hull the penetration damage is not applied to the ship, only the gun.  However you DID overpen the superstructure, which is why the 10% overpen damage is subtracted from ship HP.  But since you did technically penetrate armor and the shell exploded, the UI shows that as a penetrating hit.

That's very interesting.
Going off of memory (for what that's worth), it seems like a lot of my good pens come from closer ranges
when a lot of the shells hit the hull, and the bad pens coming from range hits, when shells are landing everywhere,
especially the superstructure.
I'll keep a watch on it. Thank you.

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Just now, z9_ said:

especially the superstructure.

The superstructure is very thin armor, so AP shells - especially battleship caliber ones - are more likely to just yolo through. You need to yeet them at thicker armor so they can trigger and explode inside the target ship and do more damage. The problem with hitting thicker armor though is that if it's very much angled, your shells are more likely to just bounce off.

That's part of the skill in WoWS, knowing where to shoot what ammo at which angles.

G4Q71Ze.jpg

The armor scheme of a typical battleship, in this case, Musashi. The red parts are the thickest, the turrets, barbettes and armor belt. The orange parts are much thinner, the funnel and hull parts other than the belt. The green parts are the thinnest, the superstructure.

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