Destroyer face-off, all-on-all brawl AT THE APOLLO.

[Daltron]

OK, so This is a hypothetical gun brawl between four destroyer classes: the Allen Sumner, Akitsuki, the German Z43, and Kagero class. This is leaving out torpedoes.

 

Allen Sumner: 6 x 5'' DP

 

Akitsuki: 8 x 3.9'' DP (sorry about the typo, I couldn't remember the size)

 

Z43: 5 x 5'' non-DP

 

Kagero: 6 x 5'' DP

 

No armor is known to me about these vessels.

 

Who would nguyen? GO.

[Elouda]

Daltron, on 06 February 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

OK, so This is a hypothetical gun brawl between four destroyer classes: the Allen Sumner, Akitsuki, the German Z43, and Kagero class. This is leaving out torpedoes.

Allen Sumner: 6 x 5'' DP

Akitsuki: 8 x 4.8'' DP

Z43: 5 x 5'' non-DP

Kagero: 6 x 5'' DP

No armor is known to me about these vessels.

Who would nguyen? GO.

Akitsuki (which should be romazined Akizuki) was armed with 8x3.9in, not 8x4.8in.

The only one with any kind of armour beyond what the hull structure provides is Sumner, which had STS plates for improved splinter protection. Not enough to protect against gunfire however, even from something like a 3in.

[nixxxie]

Everything comes to how good crew is and their commander. That's why i find tiering destroyers troublesome.

[Capcon]

Want to add in these ships of similar (or even slightly larger) size?

 

Mogador: 8 x 5.4" LA (low angle 30 degrees only) French

 

Tashkent: 6 x 5.1 LA (low angle only) Soviet (built in italy)

 

And this smaller but arguably more famous class heavily gunned destroyer:

 

Tribal: 8 x 4.7 LA (low angle 40 degrees only) British

[cmcpaulinc]

if all equal, Allen Sumner and Kagero would be at odds

[Krieg]

nixxxie, on 06 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Everything comes to how good crew is and their commander. That's why i find tiering destroyers troublesome.

Hopefully Nix, the game will reflect that as well.

[Capcon]

I wonder if, when the French show up (in 201?) if the refitted Le Fantasques can have dual purpose DP 5"/38 mounts as alternatives after they get the mid-war US refits.

 

That might put them in the running as well.

 

And the Mogadors almost got 5.1" dual purpose.

 

and an alternative for the British Battle class was more guns instead of just 4 x 4.5"

 

Come down to it in a gun fight, 2,500-3,000 ton destroyers with 6 to 8 guns could well be a coin flip.

[nixxxie]

Krieg, on 06 February 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Hopefully Nix, the game will reflect that as well.

I doubt that you get matchmaker that wide. And players need to feel the difference between tiers because it's the game.

Capcon, on 06 February 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I wonder if, when the French show up (in 201?) if the refitted Le Fantasques can have dual purpose DP 5"/38 mounts as alternatives after they get the mid-war US refits.

Why should they? Historically it's more probable that they get some British QFs.

[Commanderjoebob]

no idea lol

[brian333]

Sumner was a late war vessel, laid down in '43, after many of the lessons of the naval war had been learned. It's not a fair contestant. Radar fire control, (no other DD had it,) fire control rangekeepers and computers, and state of the art engineering made the Sumner a destroyer that was still in service up to the time of the Spruances. (My ship toured with one of the Gearing sub-class of the Sumner DD's in 1980-1.)

[Wunderwaffen1945]

Alan would win

[Capcon]

Ok, given that radar is a huge advantage, assume in the game it is not or that anyone can get one (more or less) then what?

 

Witness World of Tanks where the player controlled aiming is the same from the T1 through the M103, from the Loltraktor through the E-100.

 

For decades in our period there will be no radar. I can only assume it will be an expensive add on module. (I will toss that question to the Q&A #3 thread after a little research).

 

So, fire control being relatively, even who, if anyone, has the advantage in the DD street fight?

[HaradaTaro]

contrari to most people here I would bet on the Akizuki class. and their fast firing DP 100mm gun.   Allen M summer will just be eaten alive. with their 'quite' slower 5" gun 12-15 round at best / min  while the 100mm type 93 had a 19-21 rounds a minute.  There's a better chance for the fast firing one to cripple the other destroyer and disable its turrets before being pounded down...

 

I don't think radar will be put as module... but will be included into the gun stats....  Otherwise you will have to include IJN better training at night fighting.  Germany's better quality of KC armor and better quality of optic range finder... Those things are two difficult to be put in place.

[Daltron]

HaradaTaro, on 10 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

contrari to most people here I would bet on the Akizuki class. and their fast firing DP 100mm gun.   Allen M summer will just be eaten alive. with their slow 5" gun 10-12 round at best / min  while the 100mm type 93 had a 19-21 rounds a minute.  There's a better chance for the fast firing one to cripple the other destroyer and disable its turrets before being pounded down...

I don't think radar will be put as module... but will be included into the gun stats....  Otherwise you will have to include IJN better training at night fighting.  Germany's better quality of KC armor and better quality of optic range finder... Those things are two difficult to be put in place.

I see your claim of slow rpm on Sumner and raise you this:




Now before you go off saying 'well this was the modernized Iowa with automated loading mechanisms or some other type of new loading system or gun to make the rpm go up', this is the same gun that was used even on Fletchers and Bensons.

[Scootaloo23]

USS Laffey, for the win! She is the ship that would not die! She took a pounding that could have punched out a carrier! Plus her name is so fun to say! LAFFEY!

[HaradaTaro]

Modernized gun systems.   and yes I would prefer a rate of fire on design 19-21 for 8 guns than a design rate of fire of 12-15... for 6 guns.  Simple maths.  160 shells a minute vs 90 shells a minute  with any of the two being able to go through the other's turrets and disable them.  I will stay on the fast firing. I do not say it's the best nor it's the worst its only my opinion.  We will never have the right answer as those ships are no more in service and I don't think even at war they would end up duelling with same quality of crew and fighting conditions...  That remains personnal opinion.

 

And yes I know it has been reported well trained crew on the 5" atteined 20-22 rounds a minute as well as well trained crew on the 100mm reached up to 28-30 a minute.

 

But I know you have to have the last word God bless america and blahblah I pee on the IJN and so....as for the Ise...

[Daltron]

HaradaTaro, on 10 February 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Modernized gun systems.   and yes I would prefer a rate of fire on design 19-21 for 8 guns than a design rate of fire of 12-15... for 6 guns.  Simple maths.  160 shells a minute vs 90 shells a minute  with any of the two being able to go through the other's turrets and disable them.  I will stay on the fast firing. I do not say it's the best nor it's the worst its only my opinion.  We will never have the right answer as those ships are no more in service and I don't think even at war they would end up dueling with same quality of crew and fighting conditions...  That remains personal opinion.

And yes I know it has been reported well trained crew on the 5" attained 20-22 rounds a minute as well as well trained crew on the 100mm reached up to 28-30 a minute.

But I know you have to have the last word God bless america and blahblah I pee on the IJN and so....as for the Ise...

I'm not disqualifying the 100mm at all, those things are baller shot caller on the RoF, I just don't think the 5'' was being given enough lovin' ;)

Plus in my opinion the 100mm would do less damage per shot than the 5'' but who knows.

[Windhover118]

The 5/38 was agruably the best dual purpouse mount used during the war. The Allen M. Sumner class would have the advantage of firecontrol radar complimenting the relativly high rate of fire with accuracy. Of course of a Sumner class got hit by a Type 93 torpedo it would pretty much be the end of the Sumner.

[Elouda]

HaradaTaro, on 10 February 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Modernized gun systems.   and yes I would prefer a rate of fire on design 19-21 for 8 guns than a design rate of fire of 12-15... for 6 guns.  Simple maths.  160 shells a minute vs 90 shells a minute  with any of the two being able to go through the other's turrets and disable them.  I will stay on the fast firing. I do not say it's the best nor it's the worst its only my opinion.  We will never have the right answer as those ships are no more in service and I don't think even at war they would end up duelling with same quality of crew and fighting conditions...  That remains personnal opinion.

And yes I know it has been reported well trained crew on the 5" atteined 20-22 rounds a minute as well as well trained crew on the 100mm reached up to 28-30 a minute.

But I know you have to have the last word God bless america and blahblah I pee on the IJN and so....as for the Ise...

30 RPM on the 10cm/65 is physically impossible because the hoists are only able to supply 20-22 RPM, so once the ready use ammo is used up, that is the maximum possible. However, typical rate of fire in a surface engagement would be in the 14-18 RPM range.

On the 5in/38 as mounted on the Sumner, the hoists could supply 18-20 RPM. These mountings also had some ready use ammo, so that could be exceeded for a while. Typical RoF for a surface engagement would be 12-15 RPM.

However, it is worth noting that the round for the 5in/38 is nearly twice as heavy as the round for the 10cm/65 - 25kg vs 13kg. Likewise, the explosive filler for the US gun is roughly 3 times that of the Japanese one - 2.8-3.8kg vs 0.95kg.

In terms of actual firepower, the two are actual probably fairly close. Sumner has better firecontrol and better splinter protection, but one less turret and less displacement. Whatever the case, the result wont be pretty.

[Daltron]

Windhover118, on 10 February 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

The 5/38 was agruably the best dual purpouse mount used during the war. The Allen M. Sumner class would have the advantage of firecontrol radar complimenting the relativly high rate of fire with accuracy. Of course of a Sumner class got hit by a Type 93 torpedo it would pretty much be the end of the Sumner.

Minus torpedoes. Torpedoes are almost an automatic derp.

[zcr19]

Im curious to you chosing the Zerstörer 1936B class over the Zerstörer 1936A class was it simply because it was the latest design or any other reason and the Zerstörer 1936A had 5 5.9' and a 1.5kt speed advantage over the Zerstörer 1936.

Anyways, I think the Sumner would be the winner here for her rate of fire, fire controle and damage controle abilities, but who really knows what the real outcome would be so many things can happen in the heat of the battle.