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Battleship line split for Japan

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Japanese battleship is somewhat an oddball: you get a mix of Battlecruiser (Miyogi, Kongo, Amagi) and the rest are ''proper battleship''. Few other line are that weird and inconsistent, and Japanese navy add quite enough plan to make 2 complete lines with few original works. Thus, here we go.

The split will start at tier 5:

Tier 5: Fuso

Yes, you see that. Fuso at 5. This ships perform well at 6, yes, but with a few balance change (HP, accuracy, range) it would be possible to fit her at tier 5. I hear you say ''why change something that work well?'' Well, there is a reason and we will see it at tier 6.

Tier 5 alt: IJN Yari

Basically the original order of the Kongo with 8x343mm guns. I know that ''downgrading'' the gun size is not the norm, but here it would make some sense. This is basically an HMS Tiger with a Pagoda mast at her B hull. Nothing to frivolous and it should work fine at tier 5.

 

Tir 6: IJN Ise

Ise is an upgraded Fuso with better armor and secondaries. She will fit well at tier 6 and player loving Fuso will love her. And no, it will not have a C hull aviation battleship, But at some point Hyuga could be add as such I guess.

ONI-Ise-classDrawing.thumb.jpg.181ff9df6c5946425541b56f3ad3e1fb.jpg

 

Tier 6 alt: IJN Kongo

This one may be a little bit sketchy, but I think that Kongou at tier 5 is somewhat lower than it should be, especially considering how the Japanese navy view them in comparison to the Fuso. Using their 1944 configuration with a buff to concealment  and accuracy, they would be some agile battle cruiser that would be a good fit for ships like Dunkerque and Repulse, if it ever comes in the game.

 

Tier 7: Nagato

Nothing surprising here.

Tier 7 alt: IJN Minami

This one would be full on paper ship since I am not aware of a battle cruiser design between Amagi and Kongou. My concept would be, well, quite easy: take Amagi, remove one twin 16'' caliber and some armor, and bingo.

Tier 8: IJN Tosa

Tosa is a slower Amagi with better protection and the same main guns. The trade of speed for armor would make her suitable at tier 8. Plus her Y turret should turn 360 which can come quite handily.

173a3573e99bedccf0931fffb093a8c4.jpg.9e72e923038019a02d16b23eff4cb966.jpg

 

 

Tier 8 Alt : IJN Amagi

Again, no surprise there. Amagi is a battle cruiser after all, and perform well at tier 8 despite the power creep.

Tier 9 premium: IJN Izumo

Give her the Moskva treatment in order to place a proper pre- Yamato at tier 9

Tier 9 : IJN Shiomi (A-140G1-D)

One of the pre-Yamato design with 8 18'' guns. The design was for an all forward armement of 2x3 18'' and 1x2 18'', but it may be more coherent to move the C turret to the X turret. That concept was  slower than the Yamato (26 knt) but would make her somewhat a good equivalent to the Musashi.

yamato-a-140g1-d.thumb.png.bd00ea8814d938dd13f4fa0fae7ed9e0.png

Tier 9 Alt:

IJN Naeba (hiraga's design 30 000 tons)

A fast battleship (32 knt) wit 3x3 410mm guns. It was design as a replacement of the Kongou and would fit well up there.

kongo_replacement_design_30k_variant_e_by_tzoli-dc5aie0.thumb.png.79842ff427d8c5851d177099e0749b98.png

 

Tier 10: Yamato

duh

Tier 10 alt: IJN Warasuwa (Number 13 class fast battleship)

The Number 13 was armed with 8x457 mm guns and was designed for 30 knt.

IJN_battleship_design_of_Project-13_class.thumb.jpg.c548d3db83dcfadce19bd29aa556403d.jpg

 

Edited by Y_Nagato
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Yea, I spit on the Japanese BB line also.

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2 minutes ago, jmanII said:

Yea, I spit on the Japanese BB line also.

Yeah, typo lol

 

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@Y_Nagato why not keep fuso at T6 and put Ise at T5? 

Historically, Ise was inferior in design to Fuso which in turn led to them being chosen for conversion....

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
Grammar

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1 hour ago, jmanII said:

Yea, I spit on the Japanese BB line also.

I guess it's better than swallows. The French BB line farts in anybody's general direction. We are lucky they don't shoot cows at the Royal Navy ships. That would be funny, but the cows would complain to WG.

The Royal Navy BB line drinks so much tea that #1 is a meme. They can't do #2. Nelson keeps cracking the toilets.

The Russian BB line never dumps AP without a plan. Even if it is written on a  cocktail napkin at a party full of party leaders. With nicknames like leaky Peter. When they say they will break you, you almost try hard not to laugh, then send torpedoes.

US BB line is a slow ride, but eventually you stand tall in the saddle. There's a reason to give these buckaroos a wide berth.

Italian BBs. ....... think spaghetti westerns with Muppets. Operaman could narrate the stream battles with Kermit the Frog.

I am still waiting for the Greek Navy with their triremes. Ramming flags for everyone. And just feeding the rowers red bull gets you that blistering kaleidescope speed of.  11 knots. Whew, I can feel the pull that I get dizzy. Just turning will make you lean to one side. Plus we get a Xena and Gabrielle captain. Hercules would be sold at the premium shop for a buck. Xena and Gabrielle would be sold for 199.99 dollars each. They will throw in a Joxer for free.

 

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Just now, Cpt_Cupcake said:

@Y_Nagato why not keep fuso at T6 and put Ise at T5? 

Historically, Ise was inferior in design to Fuso which in turn led to them being chosen for conversion...

Gameplay wise, fuso has 12 guns compared to the Ise's 10, hence my initial sentence.

Ise was superior to Fuso in fact, with better gun placement, armor and secondaries. They were choose Because Hyuuga already lose her turret number 5 due to an explosion, But Fuso and Yamashiro were also schedule to have that conversion. And Ise had also 12 guns.

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Just now, Y_Nagato said:

Ise was superior to Fuso in fact, with better gun placement, armor and secondaries. They were choose Because Hyuuga already lose her turret number 5 due to an explosion, But Fuso and Yamashiro were also schedule to have that conversion. And Ise had also 12 guns.

My bad. For some reason I thought the Ise class had 10 guns, probably because of hyuuga missing a turret.

There was also another factor in the conversion, Ise class couldn't elevate the guns as high I believe.

Beyond that, your proposal is sound.

 

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2 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

kongo_replacement_design_30k_variant_e_by_tzoli-dc5aie0.thumb.png.79842ff427d8c5851d177099e0749b98.png

looking at this filled me with a primal urge to harm something from its ugliness

Edited by tcbaker777

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1 hour ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I guess it's better than swallows. The French BB line farts in anybody's general direction. We are lucky they don't shoot cows at the Royal Navy ships. That would be funny, but the cows would complain to WG.

The Royal Navy BB line drinks so much tea that #1 is a meme. They can't do #2. Nelson keeps cracking the toilets.

The Russian BB line never dumps AP without a plan. Even if it is written on a  cocktail napkin at a party full of party leaders. With nicknames like leaky Peter. When they say they will break you, you almost try hard not to laugh, then send torpedoes.

US BB line is a slow ride, but eventually you stand tall in the saddle. There's a reason to give these buckaroos a wide berth.

Italian BBs. ....... think spaghetti westerns with Muppets. Operaman could narrate the stream battles with Kermit the Frog.

I am still waiting for the Greek Navy with their triremes. Ramming flags for everyone. And just feeding the rowers red bull gets you that blistering kaleidescope speed of.  11 knots. Whew, I can feel the pull that I get dizzy. Just turning will make you lean to one side. Plus we get a Xena and Gabrielle captain. Hercules would be sold at the premium shop for a buck. Xena and Gabrielle would be sold for 199.99 dollars each. They will throw in a Joxer for free.

 

this is one of the finest posts i have ever read in this or any other forum! thank you.

however, have you ever run into a cow while driving in a small car, at high speed? i mean, they can do some serious damage. and the mess can total lesser cars.

years ago i often posted to put Subs in the game. sorry. but now i will focus ALL my formidable efforts on the Greek Navy line. As there is no point in using the IHFE skills on german CAs, there would be no reason to put a ramming flag on Greek navy ships. So, of course, you would get them from ALL containers, and 500 free when you research the ship.

thank you, thank you. you have given  me a new purpose.

1 hour ago, tcbaker777 said:

looking at this filled me with a primal urge to harm something from its ugliness

you don't normally feel that way?? tc, is it the 'Rona??

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Note: I just regrind the Japanese BB line last month so all these ships are fresh in my mind.

I mostly Agree with the higher tier picks but The idea of Kongo being Higher tier then Fuso is just Hilarious. The only way you could make Fuso "balanced" at tier 5 is if you nerfed it such a degree that it would be just a Headache, Like for Christ sake it literally has TWICE the number of guns as the tier 4 Myogi.  Fuso works Perfectly fine at tier 6 so it can stay there.

Kongo if anything is one of the weaker tier 5's so moving it to tier 6 where it could see tier 8 where some Cruisers do more per salvo then it is a joke.  And it would also be a pain to move due to the ARP ships.

Ise Could work at tier 6 or 7 depending on what they do with it but over all I would say that the best point to split at would be 7, Maybe 6. Japan just doeskin have many BB designs that can work at 6/5 without being too weak or too strong so the ones there are the best we will get. (though i would like to some of their models remastered like Yamato)

So over all: I would Keep the line the same until tier 6 where once you get Fuso you can either get Ise (BB split tier 7) Or Nagato (Main line tier 7) Ise would just be in a similar situation to California and I can see them making it work. Tier 8 and up I agree with what you have listed here.

But there is no Non-[edited] way they can not ONLY make Fuso tier 5 but ALSO make Kongo a Higher tier then it. tweak the ships? Maybe/yes on certain things. But not move them.

 

Edited by Admiral_Reeves

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Reeves said:

Note: I just regrind the Japanese BB line last month so all these ships are fresh in my mind.

I mostly Agree with the higher tier picks but The idea of Kongo being Higher tier then Fuso is just Hilarious. The only way you could make Fuso "balanced" at tier 5 is if you nerfed it such a degree that it would be just a Headache, Like for Christ sake it literally has TWICE the number of guns as the tier 4 Myogi.  Fuso works Perfectly fine at tier 6 so it can stay there.

Kongo if anything is one of the weaker tier 5's so moving it to tier 6 where it could see tier 8 where some Cruisers do more per salvo then it is a joke.  And it would also be a pain to move due to the ARP ships.

Ise Could work at tier 6 or 7 depending on what they do with it but over all I would say that the best point to split at would be 7, Maybe 6. Japan just doeskin have many BB designs that can work at 6/5 without being too weak or too strong so the ones there are the best we will get. (though i would like to some of their models remastered like Yamato)

So over all: I would Keep the line the same until tier 6 where once you get Fuso you can either get Ise (BB split tier 7) Or Nagato (Main line tier 7) Ise would just be in a similar situation to California and I can see them making it work. Tier 8 and up I agree with what you have listed here.

But there is no Non-[edited] way they can not ONLY make Fuso tier 5 but ALSO make Kongo a Higher tier then it. tweak the ships? Maybe/yes on certain things. But not move them. 

 

In my Opinion: Fuso may be on the stronger side in term of strenght, but it is also fairly slow, not nimble and not well armored. A decrease in accuracy / range/ fire rate would make her an equivalent with a ship like New York. Meanwhile Kongo main current flaws are it's poor concealment and its accuracy, 2 value that can be changed without any deep change to the ships. She would still have more firepower than Dunkerque (8x356mm vs 8x330mm) with speed on the higher end of the tier and more range than almost any other ships.

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2 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

In my Opinion: Fuso may be on the stronger side in term of strenght, but it is also fairly slow, not nimble and not well armored. A decrease in accuracy / range/ fire rate would make her an equivalent with a ship like New York. Meanwhile Kongo main current flaws are it's poor concealment and its accuracy, 2 value that can be changed without any deep change to the ships. She would still have more firepower than Dunkerque (8x356mm vs 8x330mm) with speed on the higher end of the tier and more range than almost any other ships.

1: Its still faster then most of the tier 5's

2 it has a Larger number of noticeably better guns, One does not simply Nerf accuracy for balance when its already on of the least accurate ships in the game.

3 It still also has better armor then most of the tier 5s.

Fuso still is one of the better tier 6's due to range and rate of fire. And its Still faster then US BBs up to tier 7 and is comparable to the British and German BBs of tier 6. Think about it, Current Kongo with 8 of the exact same guns is 30-31second reload and the New York/Texas have a 32-34.7 Second reload on Ships that has Far worse armor, Far Slower, And Literally the worst secondaries of Any battleship in the game! And still top of that have 2 less guns then Fuso. So just how slow would the Fuso Reload be to be remotely "Balanced"?  Cant just keep decreasing Accuracy on one of the 2 least accurate BBs in the game (Fuso and New Mexio) Because then its no longer fun,  Just a headache. Changing the range wouldn't even change much because Most of the tier 5s have no more then 16KM of range. So the only thing they could do is Nerf Reload.

The split would just have to happen at tier 6 or 7 with the Ise being a tech tree or premium. Maybe having a better tier 6 Kongo as a Premium, But there is No making Fuso work at tier 5.

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23 minutes ago, Admiral_Reeves said:

1: Its still faster then most of the tier 5's

2 it has a Larger number of noticeably better guns, One does not simply Nerf accuracy for balance when its already on of the least accurate ships in the game.

3 It still also has better armor then most of the tier 5s.

Fuso still is one of the better tier 6's due to range and rate of fire. And its Still faster then US BBs up to tier 7 and is comparable to the British and German BBs of tier 6. Think about it, Current Kongo with 8 of the exact same guns is 30-31second reload and the New York/Texas have a 32-34.7 Second reload on Ships that has Far worse armor, Far Slower, And Literally the worst secondaries of Any battleship in the game! And still top of that have 2 less guns then Fuso. So just how slow would the Fuso Reload be to be remotely "Balanced"?  Cant just keep decreasing Accuracy on one of the 2 least accurate BBs in the game (Fuso and New Mexio) Because then its no longer fun,  Just a headache. Changing the range wouldn't even change much because Most of the tier 5s have no more then 16KM of range. So the only thing they could do is Nerf Reload.

The split would just have to happen at tier 6 or 7 with the Ise being a tech tree or premium. Maybe having a better tier 6 Kongo as a Premium, But there is No making Fuso work at tier 5.

Fuso stock hull: 44600 hp, New York top hull: 49100

Fuso stock hull: 21.56 knt New York top hull: 21knt

Fuso stock hull: 261 936, New York top hull: AP DPM 199 820

Fuso stock hull: 19.8 detection range, New York top hull: 16.02 detection range

Fuso stock hull: 740m turning radius, New York top hull: 600m turning radius

Fuso stock hull: 605mm belt, 51mm with some are up to 151mm , New York top hull: up to 51mm

 

Basically, and A hull Fuso is already quite similar to a top hull New York in many regard. Thus those tweak are not even major to make her into a proper tier 5.  

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35 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Fuso stock hull: 44600 hp, New York top hull: 49100

Fuso stock hull: 21.56 knt New York top hull: 21knt

Fuso stock hull: 261 936, New York top hull: AP DPM 199 820

Fuso stock hull: 19.8 detection range, New York top hull: 16.02 detection range

Fuso stock hull: 740m turning radius, New York top hull: 600m turning radius

Fuso stock hull: 605mm belt, 51mm with some are up to 151mm , New York top hull: up to 51mm

 

Basically, and A hull Fuso is already quite similar to a top hull New York in many regard. Thus those tweak are not even major to make her into a proper tier 5.  

There are a number of problems with stuffing a Stock hull Fuso at tier 5, Primarily being that it wouldn't actually be as is Stock. 

First off the speed of 21Knots is something Fuso never really had so it wouldn't make sense to limit it there.

Second it makes Very little sense for a Fuso to have less HP then a New York so it would end up having more in top hull.

Third that Still doesn't solve the biggest issue being that its guns would have to have over 35 second reload to be Remotely Balanced. 

There is again NO reason to move Fuso to tier 5. Its fine where it is and Ise can either be a tier 6/7 tech tree or a premium. Proof that its fine to have Improved designs in at the same tier is that the Arizona is the same tier as New Mexico. And if not proof that it could work at tier 7 is the California.

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44 minutes ago, Admiral_Reeves said:

There are a number of problems with stuffing a Stock hull Fuso at tier 5, Primarily being that it wouldn't actually be as is Stock. 

First off the speed of 21Knots is something Fuso never really had so it wouldn't make sense to limit it there.

Second it makes Very little sense for a Fuso to have less HP then a New York so it would end up having more in top hull.

Third that Still doesn't solve the biggest issue being that its guns would have to have over 35 second reload to be Remotely Balanced. 

There is again NO reason to move Fuso to tier 5. Its fine where it is and Ise can either be a tier 6/7 tech tree or a premium. Proof that its fine to have Improved designs in at the same tier is that the Arizona is the same tier as New Mexico. And if not proof that it could work at tier 7 is the California.

You could keep her retrofited speed in, yes. But having Fuso with less HP than a New York? Yes it does make sense. Fuso was a design with various structural issue, which is why the Ise is fairly different (far more different than he New Mexico and the Arizona were). Having Fuso with more HP than a modernized Queen Elizabeth is a bigger heresy than her having simalar HP of a New York.

And 35 second is roughly the reload of New York (34 ish), so I fail to see how giving Fuso a 33 second reload giving her some 10% more dpm than a New York would be bad.

Edited by Y_Nagato

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15 hours ago, Admiral_Reeves said:

Kongo if anything is one of the weaker tier 5's so moving it to tier 6 where it could see tier 8 where some Cruisers do more per salvo then it is a joke.  And it would also be a pain to move due to the ARP ships 

Kongo is very similar to Hood, which is tier 7. I might argue that Hood should also be tier 6, but the two ships are close. 
 

Keep in mind that Kongo’s secondaries are nerfed a bit to cram her into tier 5 her AA is nerfed even more (her secondaries were dual purpose IRL in addition to AA guns missing), the configuration in game is for 1942 instead of 44, and there are empty spots where secondaries could have been mounted. Kongo also has poor “soft” stats such as rudder shift, dispersion, and reload, which could all be adjusted. 
 

Kongo suffered a bit because her AA and secondary potential were way beyond what was envisioned for tier 5 when the game was new, and in some ways she would have been superior to the tier 6 and 7. Moving an unbuffed Kongo to tier 6 would be a mistake, but there is a lot of room to buff and denerf the class. 

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@Y_Nagato Took some time to think about it and Kongo Possibly could work at tier 6 if buffed enough but the problem is there is No making Fuso Work at tier 5 unless they made it just a Headache to play as it would have to have At least 36 second reload at that point is possibly even worse Accuracy in order to be remotely balanced.

How about this: Move Fuso to be a Premium (Similar to your Izumo proposal) Keeping it Exactly as is (maybe some minor changes) Then put Ise at the Main line tier 6 like you said BUT it has a 30-32 second reload vs Fuso's 28 allowing there to be some balance/trade off for them. Fuso would have a higher rate of fire (and probably range) while Ise would have better armor, Gun layout, Speed, And secondaries. and maybe accuracy (after all the main Japanese Battleships like to advertise accuracy).

Then either have the split start at tier 7 with Nagato and Minami. Or Maybe have it start at tier 6 with Kongo and Ise and make the standard tier 5 be the Yari you mentioned.

With all these in effect you would have: Tier 5 Yari, Tier 6 Main Ise and Split tier 6 be Kongo while Fuso be a Premium. The rest would be as you originally said.

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5 hours ago, inktomi19d said:

Kongo is very similar to Hood, which is tier 7. I might argue that Hood should also be tier 6, but the two ships are close. 

Well, more or less.

Kongo is more in the ballpark of where Repulse and Renown would be, Hood is still ahead of her in term of fire power (4x15'' guns) and armor (Hood had hevier main belt (305mm vs 279mm), heavier deck armor (76mm vs 58mm), better gun protection (381mm vs 279) with a similar top speed. But Renown would be a tier 6 for sure, and even if historically she was ahead of Kongo (and probably ahead of the Scharnorst also) both would fit well at tier 6.

32 minutes ago, Admiral_Reeves said:

How about this: Move Fuso to be a Premium (Similar to your Izumo proposal) Keeping it Exactly as is (maybe some minor changes) Then put Ise at the Main line tier 6 like you said BUT it has a 30-32 second reload vs Fuso's 28 allowing there to be some balance/trade off for them. Fuso would have a higher rate of fire (and probably range) while Ise would have better armor, Gun layout, Speed, And secondaries. and maybe accuracy (after all the main Japanese Battleships like to advertise accuracy).

Making Fuso a premium to place Ise is somewhat lackluster imo. Both ships are fairly similar and giving away a premium that almost everybody will have (because hey, everybody love that long, thick and hard pagoda mast!) would be weird. But sure maybe it would be better to split at tier 6.

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8 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, more or less.

Kongo is more in the ballpark of where Repulse and Renown would be, Hood is still ahead of her in term of fire power (4x15'' guns) and armor (Hood had hevier main belt (305mm vs 279mm), heavier deck armor (76mm vs 58mm), better gun protection (381mm vs 279) with a similar top speed. But Renown would be a tier 6 for sure, and even if historically she was ahead of Kongo (and probably ahead of the Scharnorst also) both would fit well at tier 6.

Of course. Very similar ships in style of play though and in game terms there is not much functional difference. Neither the 14” or 15” can overmatch now armor and neither belt can bounce enemy BB shells without angling. WG bases deck and extremities armor, secondary range and rate of fire, and AA range and rate of fire off of tier more than history, so all of that would change. 
 

The 1945 Haruna would have 16 6” secondaries instead of 14 (dual purpose, so they should add to AA, which they don’t currently, 12 5” dual purpose guns instead of 4, and an additional 108 25mm AA guns. There isn’t a lot about the main battery or belt armor which could be changed, but in addition to improving soft stats, Kongo has the potential for best-in-tier AA and secondaries, which could go a long way to making her competitive. 
 

When I first played her, Kongo faced tier 8 a lot, and wasn’t too bad if I angled well. I think we saw up to tier 9 then. 

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1 hour ago, inktomi19d said:

Neither the 14” or 15” can overmatch now armor and neither belt can bounce enemy BB shells without angling.

15'' let you overmatch 25mm, which is tier 6-7 bb, almos all cruisers. 14'' only overmatch 19mm.

 

1 hour ago, inktomi19d said:

The 1945 Haruna would have 16 6” secondaries instead of 14 (dual purpose, so they should add to AA, which they don’t currently,

The 6'' in casemate had very limited AA capacity, if any. Just like the 25mm were barely more that firework in term of effectiveness.

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5 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

 

The 6'' in casemate had very limited AA capacity, if any. Just like the 25mm were barely more that firework in term of effectiveness.

I’m not saying the case mated should be super-effective (because of poor elevation) but they were used. The 5” DP battery was tripled, and 108 25mms in addition to the 25 13mms would be a big improvement even if they were mostly fireworks. It’s the sheer number of guns that would make it work. 
 

Now totally silly AA would be to treat the main battery as dual purpose. IRL the rounds which were meant for AA mostly got used for shore bombardment, but the main guns were used for AA. One of the Kongos (Haruna, I think) reportedly shot down a land based bomber with the main battery even. That would be a bit silly to put in game, but so is the rocket system on the Hood. 
 

The point is that there is a lot of room to buff Kongo to make it work at tier 6. The ship we have in game is the Hiei, which sunk in 1942. Kongo and Haruna (especially Haruna) had a lot of upgrades afterwards.

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On 6/8/2020 at 3:45 PM, inktomi19d said:

Kongo is very similar to Hood, which is tier 7. I might argue that Hood should also be tier 6, but the two ships are close. 

I've had that fight in both directions.  Kongo is doomed against Hood if both players know what they are doing.  Hood has better guns, higher speed and much better armor.  Hood at Tier VI would be absurd.  It could be tweaked to be Tier VIII or remain Tier VII, but Tier VI would require such massive nerfs it would no longer be any fun at all to play.  Think 1.5 or 1.6 sigma, much worse handling and so on.

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6 hours ago, Helstrem said:

I've had that fight in both directions.  Kongo is doomed against Hood if both players know what they are doing.  Hood has better guns, higher speed and much better armor.  Hood at Tier VI would be absurd.  It could be tweaked to be Tier VIII or remain Tier VII, but Tier VI would require such massive nerfs it would no longer be any fun at all to play.  Think 1.5 or 1.6 sigma, much worse handling and so on.

I’ve had that fight too, but a lot of the difference in those ships is in soft stats that WG can adjust. Improving Kongo’s accuracy, rudder shift, and turret rotation would go a long way. Give Kongo Hood’s soft stats, and then the difference would mostly be down to belt armor. 

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