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Capt_Ahab1776

Submarines as is, biggest threat in game

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I am starting to see what some of the skilled players have mentioned about submarines being OP. I’d wager borderline broken in the right hands. The only real threat to a submarine as is, and in the right hands, is another submarine. Unless your team has completely melted and there are red ASW ships left afloat who could coordinate a attack. Kick back and prepare for a long drawn out battle to end with the twenty minute timer.

There will not be a incentive to play a BB unless you want to try and prove you could survive a match in one. They have the possibility to influence the game every bit as much or more so as a CV does. Coordinated “Wolf Packs” with voice coms will be a difficult puzzle to solve.

Like every other class of ships there will be people who excel at the game play. I keep thinking back to the post 8.0 forum Forrest fire with the “Flying Shimakaze” type of disruption potential.

To borrow a cliche. “Even a blind man (potato like me) could see it.”

I would like to see submarines introduced, but in a balanced way.

I wish the devs best of luck in the task at hand.

 

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49 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

I am starting to see what some of the skilled players have mentioned about submarines being OP. I’d wager borderline broken in the right hands. The only real threat to a submarine as is, and in the right hands, is another submarine. Unless your team has completely melted and there are red ASW ships left afloat who could coordinate a attack. Kick back and prepare for a long drawn out battle to end with the twenty minute timer.

There will not be a incentive to play a BB unless you want to try and prove you could survive a match in one. They have the possibility to influence the game every bit as much or more so as a CV does. Coordinated “Wolf Packs” with voice coms will be a difficult puzzle to solve.

Like every other class of ships there will be people who excel at the game play. I keep thinking back to the post 8.0 forum Forrest fire with the “Flying Shimakaze” type of disruption potential.

To borrow a cliche. “Even a blind man (potato like me) could see it.”

I would like to see submarines introduced, but in a balanced way.

I wish the devs best of luck in the task at hand.

 

Yeah, poor BBs are quite a powercreeped class at this point, but they are still threatening in the meta (as in, if CBs had no BB restriction, you'd see a lot more of them). So it's hard to say what you could do about them in a general sense. Hopefully they get some actual tools against subs at least.

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Yeah at minimum we well see a dramatic reduction in the variety of BBs used if Subs hit Randoms as is.

And not just BBs that will be hurts but Torp boat DDs will never know when they suddenly will be spotted by unseen subs and then blown out of the water. CLs will be hurt as they will no longer be able to camp out and in open water they often die unless they have smoke.

At least Some CAs will be in trouble.

CVs as usual get to but the most time safety they can as subs still have to pass through allied ASW which to my surprise extends all the way down to max depth.

But unless subs stay in their own separate game modes the game could get very badly hurt.

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45 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah at minimum we well see a dramatic reduction in the variety of BBs used if Subs hit Randoms as is.

And not just BBs that will be hurts but Torp boat DDs will never know when they suddenly will be spotted by unseen subs and then blown out of the water. CLs will be hurt as they will no longer be able to camp out and in open water they often die unless they have smoke.

At least Some CAs will be in trouble.

CVs as usual get to but the most time safety they can as subs still have to pass through allied ASW which to my surprise extends all the way down to max depth.

But unless subs stay in their own separate game modes the game could get very badly hurt.

I feel like DDs will adjust over time. Subs are really good for DD gameplay I think, since it will take them off the front lines where they are constantly shot and killed over caps. Subs do the spotting/capping safely. Subs will also be able to counter ships in smoke just by sitting in their smoke fire spot range too, which will help the ships subject to their punishment.

Definitely there are a lot of issues with the gameplay, and if they are released as is or only very minor adjustments, it would be awful for the game. WG has been pretty slow with their introduction, I don't think they want a live fiasco like with carriers. I would wager there is still half a year before any type of full release is discussed. There are only 2 maps with underwater development currently anyway.

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It's literally unplayable with the current setup for subs.

Having a whole class of ship completely invulnerable to half the enemy team is insane, not to mention having incredible spotting capability.  Worse, it overtaxes two groups of ships (DDs and CLs) that already are extremly overworked, and which have a frightening death rate and speed of death right now.

How fun is the game going to be when every single CL and DD is dead inside 8 minutes, and you've got 12 minutes of CVs, BBs, and a couple of CAs simply being murdered by enemies they cannot see, let alone hurt?

Subs belong SOLELY in special events like the Halloween one. They cannot be fixed to make normal Random games playable. That's not just the current incarnation of subs, it's subs as a concept.

It's literally like bringing a Ticonderoga class cruiser into the game, then wondering how to balance it - the very nature of the ship is game-breaking. IF you try to fiddle with the new ship to make it balanced, the only way to do so is remove anything that makes it unique. Subs are like that - the inherent characteristics of what a sub IS simply cannot ever be made to work in the existing framework of WoWS.  WG needs to stop this stupid idea RIGHT NOW if they want to have the game survive the year.

Edited by LAnybody
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Mehh there are some changes needed but I think more time and data is needed before how much can be determined. Some people have a fair amount of time under there belt in subs but not as much time in other ships fighting them. I do see some good cruiser and DDs captains but in general it’s a small percentage. I’d expect the number of people learning to counter subs to grow. Many people heard they died easy so they rushed straight after them looking for a kill only to be lit up after spotted or have the sub counter them. I’d like to see them boost the reward for sub battles significantly so better/more data could Be collected and the base could get exposure to/learn to counter subs. 

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I was playing the Cachalot last night. Granted I had a solid division @GandalfTehGray @Too21 

I was looking at BB’s who was in torpedo and ping range at 10km. Just easing between a bottleneck of islands while their screening DD’s was contesting caps and chasing subs at the caps. I was sitting mid, spotting, pinging, and launching torpedos.

I like the range of the Cachalot. I think all three subs bring tools to the table for sure.

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2 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

I am starting to see what some of the skilled players have mentioned about submarines being OP. I’d wager borderline broken in the right hands. The only real threat to a submarine as is, and in the right hands, is another submarine. Unless your team has completely melted and there are red ASW ships left afloat who could coordinate a attack. Kick back and prepare for a long drawn out battle to end with the twenty minute timer.

There will not be a incentive to play a BB unless you want to try and prove you could survive a match in one. They have the possibility to influence the game every bit as much or more so as a CV does. Coordinated “Wolf Packs” with voice coms will be a difficult puzzle to solve.

Like every other class of ships there will be people who excel at the game play. I keep thinking back to the post 8.0 forum Forrest fire with the “Flying Shimakaze” type of disruption potential.

To borrow a cliche. “Even a blind man (potato like me) could see it.”

I would like to see submarines introduced, but in a balanced way.

I wish the devs best of luck in the task at hand.

 

The real problem with BB's or any other ship that does not have ASW is when one or both teams are out of ASW ships doesn't have any more which is when it becomes stupid and as you pointed out it drags out.

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I have been trying ton play subs every day, as well as logging some ASW games in DD as well. There are some bad quirks that need to be fixed in the subs, and I have begun regularly abusing them when possible.It is possible to counter subs, but against a really good sub player, it absolutely takes teamwork to do it. All in all, the subs really aren't that far out from being ready. The capital ships still need better ASW options, and subs need to be far easier to damage when surfaced, but if these two things are sufficiently addressed, they will be ready. 

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I played a lot of sub games on the PTR. I don't think they bad at all, when I play a surface ship in a sub battle, I just ignore them. Their torps are easy to dodge. Countering them is not hard either. You need to approach subs from the sides, where they can not aim at you. They are also helpless if you are on top of them. There is also a factor that the torps have to go from sub depth to the surface, so if the subs are deep there is a safe zone around them no matter what direction they are pointing. This probably is also one reason why everyone is being able to rent subs, to play them is to know how to defeat them. They are also quite slow.

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30 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I have begun regularly abusing them when possible.It is possible to counter subs, but against a really good sub player, it absolutely takes teamwork to do it.

this

39 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The real problem with BB's or any other ship that does not have ASW is when one or both teams are out of ASW ships doesn't have any more which is when it becomes stupid

this

 

14 minutes ago, MollyGodiva said:

 

I played a lot of sub games on the PTR. I don't think they bad at all, when I play a surface ship in a sub battle, I just ignore them.

 

Against bots or people who haven’t had a lot of time behind the periscope you will probably get a pass. Against someone who has logged some time behind the periscope or even more so a skilled player. Might not be so lucky. If against a division who is coordinating on voice. It will be torpedo hit after torpedo hit. If they have you pinged fore and aft it will be for citadels. 

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Remember when we had "invisible fire" in the game (2+ years ago?).  That is, many ships whose detection range WHILE FIRING was less than their concealment range?

Remember WHY this was eliminated?

Now, apply the exact same logic to an opponent who there is no possibility of detecting before you are in range of their weapons, and who can shoot those weapons LONG before you (or even anyone on your team) has a chance of detecting, let alone attacking, them.

Now see why subs are inherently broken?

 

Now remember that, despite the fact this is technically a team game, that most of the play revolves around solely individual actions. So expecting that you MUST team play to counter an opponent is insane.  How much fun are you going to have when, without the ability to literally force team play on people, you cannot do anything on your own to counter an opponent. NOTHING. Is that fun?

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2 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

I am starting to see what some of the skilled players have mentioned about submarines being OP. I’d wager borderline broken in the right hands. The only real threat to a submarine as is, and in the right hands, is another submarine. Unless your team has completely melted and there are red ASW ships left afloat who could coordinate a attack. Kick back and prepare for a long drawn out battle to end with the twenty minute timer.

There will not be a incentive to play a BB unless you want to try and prove you could survive a match in one. They have the possibility to influence the game every bit as much or more so as a CV does. Coordinated “Wolf Packs” with voice coms will be a difficult puzzle to solve.

Like every other class of ships there will be people who excel at the game play. I keep thinking back to the post 8.0 forum Forrest fire with the “Flying Shimakaze” type of disruption potential.

To borrow a cliche. “Even a blind man (potato like me) could see it.”

I would like to see submarines introduced, but in a balanced way.

I wish the devs best of luck in the task at hand.

This is a test...for the next...however long it takes...this game will conduct a test...

But in order to get people to test the subs they cannot make subs so easy to kill that nobody can actually test them (Logical? Makes sense to me anyway)...that (I believe) is why there are so few ASW equipped ships in the test...

And I also believe (in a future test) that there will be more counter measures to ASW for subs introduced making subs even easier to play so they will be able to get more players willing to test them.

Then (& this then may be many tests in the future)...right before they are released there will be a test w/at least all LCs equipped w/ASW & planes (in some form of another) w/ASW allowing BBs, BCs & CVs all a chance to at least have limited ability to attack/defend against subs.

It only makes sense in a test mode to make the new ship easy to test so they can get players to test them.

Of course...in any ship there will always be: (cough

2 hours ago, Pulicat said:

 

cough)

Some players that have the ability to play aggressive & still understand enough of the game mechanics to not be in danger of getting easily punished for it...& 07 to them for all the hard work they put in to ba able to get away w/that.

& Yes...those players will figure out how to "exploit" certain mechanics in the game to give themselves an advantage...but as long as they keep sharing those "exploits" so the devs become aware of them & can address them in future tests then I say TY for actually "testing" them...because trying to figure out how to "break" something is the only way to properly test them so before they are released to the general public they are "unbreakable (great movie/trilogy BTW...but I digress)".

But...some "exploits" may not "addressed" as aggressive (w/out being yoloish) game play should be rewarded to an extent.

Anyway...this is the 1st round of open testing & more are planned so the "if they are released as is" threads are a little premature at this point....especially when the update release notes specifically stated "(paraphrased..forget exact wording) much more work/testing/or somesuch is still needed".

Haven't been able to play for months so haven't been able to test subs in any form yet but from many posts I've read it seems that subs need to surface to chase down the slow BBs & can't even keep up w/the quicker 1s at full speed so a sub vs BB end game scenario is actually in the BBs favor as BBs are worth more points & are more than likely going to be up on points against a ship that only has the advantage of stealth that it needs to give up to even catch it (not to mention in a standard battle the sub needs to surface to stop a BB from capping it's base if it can't reset it w/ torps).

That is basically what I've gleaned from the forums about 1 vs 1 sub vs BB scenarios...of course if the sub is up on points it's game over*** but if the BB is up on points it's not just an instant loss for the BB just because he's spotted & hasn't got the sub spotted...move & maneuver (ideally in a bow/stern position away or towards the sub so double pings are harder to get) & run or pass over then run & it's game over for the sub it seems.

***Actually if capping can change that it's not necessarily a guaranteed either.

 

In the case of 3 subs against a BB end game scenarios the BBs problems started long before it got to that point anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, Pulicat said:

I feel like DDs will adjust over time. Subs are really good for DD gameplay I think, since it will take them off the front lines where they are constantly shot and killed over caps. Subs do the spotting/capping safely. Subs will also be able to counter ships in smoke just by sitting in their smoke fire spot range too, which will help the ships subject to their punishment.

Definitely there are a lot of issues with the gameplay, and if they are released as is or only very minor adjustments, it would be awful for the game. WG has been pretty slow with their introduction, I don't think they want a live fiasco like with carriers. I would wager there is still half a year before any type of full release is discussed. There are only 2 maps with underwater development currently anyway.

Well here is the issue as somebody who plays everything so I am not fiercely loyal to only one ship class. Stealthy torpedo boats can already face a lot of issues that a good player can overcome. But here is the nightmare scenario I can foresee happening all too often where is bad maps, subs well positioned to spot, good radar nets, and a CV or 2 on enemy team.  A Torp boat DD can already struggle at times and be pushed to the limit in such a battle without the subs, but with the subs they will hit breaking point as there will be no way to run their attacks. As it is on some weekends I have to swap out my 12km torpedoes for the 20km torpedoes depending on my luck on a day as some maps allow radar ships to make a perfect net that you can’t sail through to attack capital ships.

And this example is just Torp boat DDs, I could go through and list in detail just how many ways we will have issues if the current subs go live in Randoms. Like how you will never get your team to advance when they can already be reluctant to do so if they suspect or worse yet had sighted a torpedo boat DD. What do you think they will do if they have 1 or more subs to deal with... You can see how things would get overwhelming.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Well here is the issue as somebody who plays everything so I am not fiercely loyal to only one ship class. Stealthy torpedo boats can already face a lot of issues that a good player can overcome. But here is the nightmare scenario I can foresee happening all too often where is bad maps, subs well positioned to spot, good radar nets, and a CV or 2 on enemy team.  A Torp boat DD can already struggle at times and be pushed to the limit in such a battle without the subs, but with the subs they will hit breaking point as there will be no way to run their attacks. As it is on some weekends I have to swap out my 12km torpedoes for the 20km torpedoes depending on my luck on a day as some maps allow radar ships to make a perfect net that you can’t sail through to attack capital ships.

And this example is just Torp boat DDs, I could go through and list in detail just how many ways we will have issues if the current subs go live in Randoms. Like how you will never get your team to advance when they can already be reluctant to do so if they suspect or worse yet had sighted a torpedo boat DD. What do you think they will do if they have 1 or more subs to deal with... You can see how things would get overwhelming.

But the radar mostly becomes a problem because they are capping. Subs can cap for them, and bait the radar too with little problem to them. Those same radar ships will have to contend with sub torpedo threat, as subs can get to places and launch where a DD wouldn't be able to do the same. A relatively immobile ship near an island is very vulnerable to subs.

DDs would also have to deal with carriers less since they are further back from the front lines, and can better line up near AA cruisers. They are also relatively sub torpedo immune if they keep moving as pings do not help in hitting them.

I did suggest that lower torp range DDs could get a range extension of maybe 1km or so to compensate this change in battlefield position, but they can also fire their guns more often since they don't have to be as stealthy to get caps and outspot enemy DDs, so maybe they don't need that. Hard to say.

Im not saying there are NO negatives. Yes, subs do outspot them on the surface. Yes, their torpedoes could be detected by a nearby sub that is immune to them anyway. If you only see DDs as spotting torpedo vessels then stuff like this is crippling, but even the torpiest DDs can use guns at range effectively, and I think it's very likely that DDs can do just fine if not better in a new location. It will take time for players to adjust to that if it can even be a realized form of playing, but it's possible.

Edited by Pulicat
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3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The real problem with BB's or any other ship that does not have ASW is when one or both teams are out of ASW ships doesn't have any more which is when it becomes stupid and as you pointed out it drags out.

Well, if your team was to have the kind of situation where DDs & CLs (ASW ships) are dead, a BB was just as impotent to free-roaming Stealth Torpedo DDs as they are against a Submarine.

 

What is Normandie, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. going to do to beat Stealth Torpedo DDs if their own DD screen is gone?

 

Not a d*mn thing but run.

 

Now imagine this in Tier X where there are some truly mighty BBs there.  What is Yamato, GK, Montana, Conqueror, Kremlin, etc. are going to do against Daring, Shimakaze, Gearing, Z-52 if their own DD screen, Radar Cruisers are dead?

 

Not a d*mn thing but run.

 

People act like the threat of Submarines is something new.  It isn't.  A DD stalking a BB in stealth is just as dangerous.  If the BB doesn't have help to find that DD, there is literally nothing the BB can do but try to run.

This is nothing new.

 

I remember a while back playing Conqueror and was having a helluva game.  I'm pretty decent with her, confident.  But a mere Tier VIII Benson somehow made its way past my screen and was attacking me for the cap.  I tried being creative with my maneuvering feigning retreat then push in to try to catch the DD, but he wasn't falling for that and he maintained stealth.  He kept on chucking torpedoes.  This went on for a while and he forced me out of the cap and seized it.  Nothing more I could do but run.  Had I tried to stay eventually he'd nail me with torps.

Conqueror Mega Healz.

Conquror's notorious 419mm x12 with Mega HE shells.

Useless against a Stealth Torpedo Tier VIII Benson if I didn't have help in finding that DD.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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@HazeGrayUnderway, while they are very similar except for the easily dodged extreme range torpedoes it is harder for the DD to approach completely unseen.

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15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Conqueror Mega Healz.

 Conquror's notorious 419mm x12 with Mega HE shells.

Useless against a Stealth Torpedo Tier VIII Benson if I didn't have help in finding that DD.

Truth

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21 hours ago, Pulicat said:

But the radar mostly becomes a problem because they are capping. Subs can cap for them, and bait the radar too with little problem to them. Those same radar ships will have to contend with sub torpedo threat, as subs can get to places and launch where a DD wouldn't be able to do the same. A relatively immobile ship near an island is very vulnerable to subs.

DDs would also have to deal with carriers less since they are further back from the front lines, and can better line up near AA cruisers. They are also relatively sub torpedo immune if they keep moving as pings do not help in hitting them.

I did suggest that lower torp range DDs could get a range extension of maybe 1km or so to compensate this change in battlefield position, but they can also fire their guns more often since they don't have to be as stealthy to get caps and outspot enemy DDs, so maybe they don't need that. Hard to say.

Im not saying there are NO negatives. Yes, subs do outspot them on the surface. Yes, their torpedoes could be detected by a nearby sub that is immune to them anyway. If you only see DDs as spotting torpedo vessels then stuff like this is crippling, but even the torpiest DDs can use guns at range effectively, and I think it's very likely that DDs can do just fine if not better in a new location. It will take time for players to adjust to that if it can even be a realized form of playing, but it's possible.

Radar can be more than just a capping problem for DDs, it can mean on some maps that you never get to get close to enemy as you have to get through narrow areas. And some of the broader areas a single sub could cover easy and it can take forever to locate said sub. Meanwhile any enemy ships in gun and torpedo range can be attacking you. And unless you get directly over the sub you can’t be sure about sinking it.

Take this map for example. If it’s weekend teams conditions I often will jump into a good tier 8+ torpedo boat DD. I will then typically proceed to find a good weak spot in enemy lines, slip through undetected and wreak havoc from behind their lines as it’s never what they expect to have happen early on. And such tactics are a great way to clear the island hugging radar campers as well as send the enemy team into disarray. You can see the most likely radar camping spots, so often I may try for that nice open area with good torpedo lines and plenty of room to slip safely by unnoticed. Now imagine 1 sub in the middle of that wide open passage, in addition to the radar islands. Which normally on this map you can skirt the radar ships unseen if your clever about it.

D2C92CA6-FBF6-48AA-B354-46BC9351B881.thumb.png.d70f4256ee7cdae0b47c9a7168a3c0a6.png

And this is not even one of the most restrictive maps either. And still subs could be used to seal it off like a wall much like a couple maps can end up against my  Torp  DD tactics.

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6 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Radar can be more than just a capping problem for DDs, it can mean on some maps that you never get to get close to enemy as you have to get through narrow areas. And some of the broader areas a single sub could cover easy and it can take forever to locate said sub. Meanwhile any enemy ships in gun and torpedo range can be attacking you. And unless you get directly over the sub you can’t be sure about sinking it.

Take this map for example. If it’s weekend teams conditions I often will jump into a good tier 8+ torpedo boat DD. I will then typically proceed to find a good weak spot in enemy lines, slip through undetected and wreak havoc from behind their lines as it’s never what they expect to have happen early on. And such tactics are a great way to clear the island hugging radar campers as well as send the enemy team into disarray. You can see the most likely radar camping spots, so often I may try for that nice open area with good torpedo lines and plenty of room to slip safely by unnoticed. Now imagine 1 sub in the middle of that wide open passage, in addition to the radar islands. Which normally on this map you can skirt the radar ships unseen if your clever about it.

D2C92CA6-FBF6-48AA-B354-46BC9351B881.thumb.png.d70f4256ee7cdae0b47c9a7168a3c0a6.png

And this is not even one of the most restrictive maps either. And still subs could be used to seal it off like a wall much like a couple maps can end up against my  Torp  DD tactics.

you just do it as a sub instead? Yes, subs will make DDs play like small cruisers, where you get outspotted often as a cruiser. the role isn't gone, it's changed hands.

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23 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Well, if your team was to have the kind of situation where DDs & CLs (ASW ships) are dead, a BB was just as impotent to free-roaming Stealth Torpedo DDs as they are against a Submarine.

 

What is Normandie, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. going to do to beat Stealth Torpedo DDs if their own DD screen is gone?

 

Not a d*mn thing but run.

Actually, I can regularly beat DDs in such situations. Maps awareness and playing for positions helps enormously. Sure, on Ocean, I'd be 100% dead, all day, all the time.

But, and you of all people should know, that BBs absolutely have options when faced with ships with torps an lower detection than them. Sure, you're at a disadvantage, but you STILL have options, and you can absolutely come out ahead with smart play.  There are PLENTY of places on most maps where, due to caps being small and islands blocking LOS, that a BB can force a DD to get spotted.

Heck, spotter planes and fighter planes spot DDs a fair amount.

Quote

People act like the threat of Submarines is something new.  It isn't.  A DD stalking a BB in stealth is just as dangerous.  If the BB doesn't have help to find that DD, there is literally nothing the BB can do but try to run.

This is nothing new.

Not even close. I have literally NO possibility of harming that Sub if I have no ASW. None.   The ONLY way I can possibly win is if the Sub is an utter moron and never submerges.  I can watch the caps, I can study the minimap all day. I can even spot him by running over his position.  NONE of that matters, since I can't harm him at all.

That's 100% different than a DD stalking a BB.

In the BB vs DD situation, I have these factors I can use to force detection and/or gain the upper hand:

  1. Map edge
  2. Islands
  3. Cap size
  4. Fighter/Spotter planes
  5. Time (if we're ahead, the DD is forced to play more aggressively, because they NEED to kill me. I just need to live.)
  6. Heck, I even have hydro in a couple of cases.

Note that they may not work. In fact, they likely will not work. But they work SOME of the time. And they work MORE than some of the time against unwary players.

All of that can result in spotting the DD, and then the BB has a good chance if they take advantage of it.

With a sub, what exactly am I supposed to do? Use Harsh Language?

 

Quote

I remember a while back playing Conqueror and was having a helluva game.  I'm pretty decent with her, confident.  But a mere Tier VIII Benson somehow made its way past my screen and was attacking me for the cap.  I tried being creative with my maneuvering feigning retreat then push in to try to catch the DD, but he wasn't falling for that and he maintained stealth.  He kept on chucking torpedoes.  This went on for a while and he forced me out of the cap and seized it.  Nothing more I could do but run.  Had I tried to stay eventually he'd nail me with torps.

Conqueror Mega Healz.

Conquror's notorious 419mm x12 with Mega HE shells.

Useless against a Stealth Torpedo Tier VIII Benson if I didn't have help in finding that DD.

So that's one of the times that the DD had the advantage, and didn't screw it up.  

Conversely, I was in a King George V, late game, on Two Brothers. I had just killed a crusier trying to come up the middle to cap the top cap. When the 2 enemy DDs from the east cap showed up. I knew they were there, because they killed my cruiser there. We were up 3 caps to 1, but behind on points pretty bad. We needed all three caps running points to win. 

There was that nice little island in the top corner of the cap, and I abused its cover and my detection to frustrate them both for 2 full minutes and 4 torp spreads.  I caught the Akatsuki by running towards him around the island corner, and blapped him.  The other (a Mahan), well, I never killed him. But the 4 minutes of dancing there was more than enough time to win us the game. 

You don't have to kill to be effective. 

Now, if that had been a sub, what would have been my options? Against the DDs, I had the ability to hold the cap without them contesting it, because the cap is small enough to force them to be detected if they tried to cap. So I kept gaining points. 

With a sub, they could have just brazenly sailed into the cap with me, parked there, and contested the cap. Even if that sub did NOTHING else, he's preventing my team from gaining cap points.  And there's ZERO I could have done about it, even if I parked on top of him. He'd have won the game, not because he sank me, but because he could stop the cap points, and there wasn't even a theoretical possibility of me stopping him from doing so.

 

The fact that there literally is ZERO counterplay to a sub by non-asw ships makes the situation completely different.

 

Edited by LAnybody

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On 6/5/2020 at 12:37 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Useless against a Stealth Torpedo Tier VIII Benson if I didn't have help in finding that DD.

One difference is that, unless the DD is very good or very lucky, that DD has a high chance of being spotted by other DDs , aircraft, radar etc and possibly blapped throughout the game. Surviving until the late game is very iffy for a DD. Subs (and CVs) have very high chances of reaching that point. without ever being spotted or shot at.  Besides, just because one thing is kind of bad does not mean its OK to add a couple more.  

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20 hours ago, Pulicat said:

you just do it as a sub instead? Yes, subs will make DDs play like small cruisers, where you get outspotted often as a cruiser. the role isn't gone, it's changed hands.

True I would do some of it as a sub, except subs can’t accomplish the mass destruction of Shimakaze getting 7-8 torpedoe hits in a single Torp wave of 15 torpedoes. Not to mention torpedo boat DDs like Shima and Gearing can get to the other side of the map faster than any sub could, chase down targets of choice, and escape when needed. DDs torpedoes can also be blind fired to pass through an area enemy might try going through and can be a devastating tactic often enough.

So the DDs have the sheer destructive power, more reliable torpedoes as far as Aiming goes, they don’t have to alert the enemy with sonar ping, they have the speed, smoke, and working guns. Plus they have AA that often enough can get rid of aircraft trying to shadow them.

 

What subs will have is the greater stealth unless trying to attack. And the ability to possibly slip through enemy radar strong points as long as enemy is not running hydro and if your sneaking through at maximum depth. More commonly though the subs will be used as bottleneck guards keeping an eye out for enemy ships attempting to sneak through or even picking off a ship here and there.

Which makes me think Subs would only possibly be good as weekend weapons as much like the old RTS CVs weekday teams tend to be smarter in how they play. And even then it still would depend on the day / MM. And some of us already have some good anti sub escort DDs already sitting in port. Like I have the entire Royal Navy Tech Tree Line on hand and based on Subs Mode numbers those seem to be the deadliest DDs to the subs.

And surprisingly enough CVs have proved deadly to subs surfaced or at operating depths. Just pass over an area see the sub, drop fighters and circle back with dive bombers which with some practice have proven effective against subs. And subs lack the smoke or AA to shoot down the aircraft so at minimum they have location well marked for any ships allied to the CV to zero in on.

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On 6/5/2020 at 11:31 AM, BrushWolf said:

@HazeGrayUnderway, while they are very similar except for the easily dodged extreme range torpedoes it is harder for the DD to approach completely unseen.

6 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

One difference is that, unless the DD is very good or very lucky, that DD has a high chance of being spotted by other DDs , aircraft, radar etc and possibly blapped throughout the game. Surviving until the late game is very iffy for a DD. Subs (and CVs) have very high chances of reaching that point. without ever being spotted or shot at.  Besides, just because one thing is kind of bad does not mean its OK to add a couple more.  

 

That situation where DDs and Submarines are roaming free to freely attack the backline of ships where BBs are, is what happens when there's a collapse, i.e. your screen of ships of DDs, Radar Cruisers / Cruisers are dead, gone, etc.

 

A Submarine isn't just going to go right past a screen of ships.  It'll get rekt.  The screen has to be dealt with first.

 

And if a Stealth Torpedo DD let itself get spotted by a Battleship, they suck as a DD player.  A decent DD player will maintain that concealment advantage and there is only 1 possible BB in the game that has the speed to catch up:  Georgia.  Every other BB is too slow to overtake and spot a DD that knows how to maintain concealment.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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