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Captain_Charnage

Suggested Changes to Subs

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I am going to start by saying I am a Submariner. I served on an Oberon Class, and I have not only have first hand experience of WW2 subs, but I also was eagerly anticipating subs more than any of my friends. I couldn't sleep the night before launch.

This new mode is stunning beautiful. It plays smooth and cleanly. The models are fascinating. This new mode shows off the new capabilities of wows, and exemplified how well a new thought can be implemented. In saying that, I think that new idea of how subs should be implemented is so flawed, it is an unplayable mode. Let me list the mechanics I will discuss:

- camera
- targeting and torpedoes
- 3d combat
- ship maneuverability and steering
- spotting system
- evasion and retreat
- underwater environment and sonar map

Camera

The same camera system was implemented from the surface models. Perhaps this was done for ease or simplification, but it is flawed. 
The ship is always in your way of seeing what in in front of the boat underwater and is is a constant zooming burden to see what is needed to be seen. 
The above water camera works fine and needs no adjustment. What is needed, underwater,  is for the camera move to top of the conning tower, with the ability
to then zoom.

Targeting and torpedoes
I can see what the developers were trying to do. They were trying to implement something fun and engaging with some difficulty, and implemented a ping twice system
for target lock, and torpedoes would "home". This sound good on paper, but what was implemented is a chore. Let me tell you a scenario which you will recognise.
You are underwater and you can see a boat 5km away, which is absurd, and you begin your ping sequence. Ping 6 sec wait, shoot 3 sec wait , ping 6 sec wait, but right before the second ping lands on the ship, you find the sonar tracker ends just before the ship for an island that cannot be seen. The ping graphic just ends, no message, no effect. Nothing. It is very frustrating.
I will admit being able to fire torpedoes and curve them toward the target is cool, but not cool enough to make it enjoyable, even though this only worked in open water with no island interruptions. The torpedoes should acquire a lock, with no homing, once a ship in inside the torpedo arc for say, 8 seconds. Then you could fire and move on.

3d Combat
Again, well intentioned, but I just cannot fathom how this is really going to ever be playable. The ability to hit another sub in a 3d environment close range is so difficult, 
ramming is a much better solution. Firstly, you can SEE the sub, which is counter intuitive to anyone that expect that with a boat with no windows, that anything should be visible.
In boats of this era, you could only fire torps with a visual line of sight, and it was a straight torpedo. why on earth they decided to stray so far from reality is boggling to me.
It is near impossible to fire on a sub without pinging it first. Subs should not be able to fire underwater in this mode, underwater should be reserved for evasion only, (to be explained later in the summary).

Ship maneuverability and steering
This actually is done quite well. careful thought was put into into how the sub performs, and generally it is fun to drive and dive, the only critique I can say is that the usage of F and C to surface and dive requires that you are not pressing E/D at the same time, since it is the same finger required. I moved my keys around a bit so that I and turn right and dive at the same time.

Spotting system
Done well. The various active, passive, and dive modes combinations was implemented well and made you think on what mode you wanted to be in and when each one was to be used.

Evasion and retreat
It was easy to go silent and evade boats, with some damage, as expected, and it worked well. 

Underwater environment and sonar map
This was realistic and well implemented, it was easy to see where you were and what path to plot underwater. I would like to see that any ping underwater would not be able to identify a ship by name or type, you would just see a blob to evade, its direction and speed. You should have limited information available to you underwater.

Overall summary
This new sub mode was partially done very well, and partially a waste of effort, how this mode ever got to this stage is beside me, and I cannot endorse this mode. At all.
In order to make this playable they need to make the following changes:

1. Drop the ping targeting of ships/boats. Ships should auto target once in the torpedo arc. same as ships. Torps should only go in a straight line.
2. Drop the ability to have various depths. There should be 3 modes, Surface, periscope and submerged. You can only fire targeted torps in surface and periscope. 
     If you fire torps underwater, they are untargeted. Periscope torps only hit cruisers/battleships, surface torps can hit anything.
3. Drop the camera underwater. you get a sonar map and blobs of ship speed/direction in close range
4. Use the battery charge only as a evasion timer to extract yourself from danger. If you stop, and go silent underwater, the battery drain should go to near zero.
5. Subs should not exceed 25 knots and should have limited compliment of torps with high damage, long range.
6. Subs are only spot-able by any aircraft or ship in surface or periscope mode.
7. At least one single barrel gun should work on the casing of the sub that fires HE only.
8. All ships should have minimally auto depth charges, like AA is auto

If you make these changes the game mode will be fun to play.

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Interesting suggestions.

Remember...they are still in testing so some of your feedback may still get implemented.

Like the observation of not being able to see w/out windows. Don't think anybody else has pointed that 1 out yet. Of course it is a game & not a sim but still surprised that 1 got by everybody so far.

+1

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On 6/3/2020 at 9:23 PM, Captain_Charnage said:

1. Drop the ping targeting of ships/boats. Ships should auto target once in the torpedo arc. same as ships. Torps should only go in a straight line.
2. Drop the ability to have various depths. There should be 3 modes, Surface, periscope and submerged. You can only fire targeted torps in surface and periscope. 
     If you fire torps underwater, they are untargeted. Periscope torps only hit cruisers/battleships, surface torps can hit anything.
3. Drop the camera underwater. you get a sonar map and blobs of ship speed/direction in close range
4. Use the battery charge only as a evasion timer to extract yourself from danger. If you stop, and go silent underwater, the battery drain should go to near zero.
5. Subs should not exceed 25 knots and should have limited compliment of torps with high damage, long range.
6. Subs are only spot-able by any aircraft or ship in surface or periscope mode.
7. At least one single barrel gun should work on the casing of the sub that fires HE only.
8. All ships should have minimally auto depth charges, like AA is auto

If you make these changes the game mode will be fun to play.

These are not bad.  Did you happen to play subs in the special (Halloween I think) event a couple of years ago?  They were actually pretty fun.

You didn't have active sonar.  You targeted via periscope (as you do in surface ships now) when either surfaced or at periscope level.  Most of the subs had a deck gun that was treated as a secondary battery and had AA capabilities that were active when surfaced.  You had limited time completely submerged, after which you had to at least come to periscope depth to recharge.

It would have been a fantastic starting point for subs in the main game.

Here's what I would suggest:

1)  Get rid of homing torpedoes.  They were all but non-existent on ships modeled in this game and they aren't needed.  Heck, the General Belgrano was sunk with Mark VIII torpedoes in 1982.

2)  Go back to that targeting mode.  It gives you a bunch of options for variability and makes it easier for people to transition from surface ships.  Just as now, with surface ships you could have the option to launch narrow or wide spreads.  You could give different classes varied features like more tubes or faster reload.  You could even have stern tubes - which were a feature of many subs of the era modeled in the game.  

3)  Keep active sonar but treat it just like radar on surface ships.  If you're submerged and illuminate a target with active sonar, you can target and attack it.  Just as with radar, ships being pinged get alerted.  If you aren't using active sonar then the map becomes just like surface ships in a storm, except detection drops even lower.  Maybe something like 4km.

4)  Agree with your #4, which is pretty much the way it worked in the special mode.  The faster you went underwater, the more battery you used.  Run all the way out and it was emergency blow time.  If you do this, there's no need to do something totally outside the historical reality like giving BBs and CAs depth charges.  If subs are forced to come up more often, those vessels have the opportunity to engage them with guns or even ramming.

5)  Pretty much agree with your #5, but I'd just pretty much follow the historic model.  You can go pretty quickly surfaced or at periscope (assumed to be snorkeling) but slow drastically when submerged.

None of these will happen however, because WG doesn't like to admit they make mistakes.

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I've said before, and I'll keep repeating it.  Implement modules on subs.  That way we can have a homing module and other things and should solve several of the problems.  (not to mention allow for upgrades in technology that different tiered subs would represent)  One thing I'd like to see would be a Thermal Layer consumable.  Presently, even when you're at maximum depth, you can still be tracked by Hydroacoustics as well as being within 2 km.  When subs used thermal layers to hide, all contact (including sound) was broken.  The downside was that the sub couldn't hear anything either.

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On 6/3/2020 at 10:23 PM, Captain_Charnage said:

In boats of this era, you could only fire torps with a visual line of sight, and it was a straight torpedo. why on earth they decided to stray so far from reality is boggling to me.
It is near impossible to fire on a sub without pinging it first. Subs should not be able to fire underwater in this mode, underwater should be reserved for evasion only, (to be explained later in the summary).

Great observations and because I currently haven't gotten my hands on a submarine I really can't argue. However, I'd like to make one correction:

WW2 submarines did have access to passive homing torpedoes during the war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7es_torpedo#:~:text=The G7es (T5) "Zaunkönig,Acoustic Torpedo) by the British.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_torpedo#:~:text=The first passive acoustic torpedoes,Germans during World War II.&text=On the Allied side%2C the,The first production Mk.

Though homing torpedoes should be a German and American thing, underwater battery recharging should be a German only feature until t10 for other nations. 

There is allot about ww2 that isn't common knowledge. An I 100% agree, submarines shouldn't be able to spot other submarines submerged below periscope depth beyond 1.5km. not enough work has gone into submarines; and like many, I desire a much more authentic and tangible scale to the gameplay/interaction model.

Furthermore yes, Submarines should be fun to play; But more importantly fun to play against. And this isn't the case in anything but annother submarine or a very fast Destroyer.

Edited by Crokodone

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On 6/3/2020 at 7:23 PM, Captain_Charnage said:

Firstly, you can SEE the sub, which is counter intuitive to anyone that expect that with a boat with no windows, that anything should be visible.
In boats of this era, you could only fire torps with a visual line of sight, and it was a straight torpedo. why on earth they decided to stray so far from reality is boggling to me.

I respect your experience, but there have been instances of WW2 submarines sinking submerged submarines. The American & Kriegsmarine subs had 270 degree firing angles on each tube, while the French had torpedo tubes mounted in watertight turntables.

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yes but they still couldn't "see" the sub underwater. They had a passive acoustic array location of its heading and speed underwater, and only visual on the surface or periscope. We annually engaged in war games regularly where we would successfully target and identify opposing subs. Still no way to see them.

Edited by Captain_Charnage

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