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BlailBlerg

Teaching people how to win (in Ranked/comp)

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This is a guide thread I will be updating for myself. If you believe you consciously understand the game at a thinking level (not a reactive play or shoot well level), please feel free to add to this thread in a constructive manner or discoursive manner only. The goal of this thread is objective: Get people around you to win more and play reasonably. 

 

A majority of players simply have zero strategic ability in this game.* Some "good" players are simply bolstered by their well-practiced aim, however, you must realize that this is a tactical/practice-based advantage. 

The difference is strategic play is based on long-term, reasoned, (less moment-to-moment) thinking - while tactical play is the ability to make the correct decisions or move within the high-speed moments of combat. Strategic play is more long-term, tactical play is shorter-term (making good moves, but not lined up in a strategy). There is also practiced skill: eg. ability to aim very very well, knowledge of armor, memorization of flow&critical points in a map, knowledge of the game, knowing how to/not-to beach (lol). These are base skills needed to play the game. If one is lacking in these, these may also contribute to a reduction win rate result that may obfuscate improvement of win rate from correct strategic or tactical play. 
This is a reminder that looking at data and results in this game (and much else in life) is looking at a bunch of probabilities and one must be able to determine the relationship of a concept/strategy to a result and how it may or may not be reflected in the result and why. This questions asks the reader: are you able to tell the difference between: a good strategy that ended up with a bad result and a bad strategy that ended up with a good result, and why. (or a good strategy with a good result and a bad strategy with a good result). 

 

 

 

----

*reasoning of this can come later. 

**a reminder that nobody cares about your whining negative-Norman opinion. Don't give it, the thread has a goal. Also don't comment on public knowledge dissemination unless you can prove your experience in it to a professional degree. 

Edited by BlailBlerg
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For short-hand, I will for now supply these two videos for some basics to talk about: 

 

 

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A summary/main bulk of my thoughts will go here: 

All ships: 

Stop dying. - This is the #1 thing players can do to increase their win rate and their learning. Winrate and death rate are nearly correlant. "Stop dying" is actually the best advice, over even "shoot better or kill more or kill the enemy team". Winning does not actually mean "kill the enemy team" because this game has points. "Stop dying" is a higher correlant to winning. 
Addendum: learn how much HP you need to sacrifice to kill another ship. Learn how to actuate that number to a high probability. 
Addendum: if you throw away your ship, you had better have done game-ending damage. Otherwise you made a mistake (which your team might still capitalize on and win with, but you DID make a mistake, even IF you won and you didn't get "punished" for it) 

Learn how to do addition and large-ness comparison. No that isn't joke, most players literally do not understand 2 caps is more than 1 cap. The base player doesn't simply understand addition. If you have two caps, build a strategy to hold it and gain value from it without dying, while also placing yourself in a position to do two things: 1. punish enemy rushes/extensions. 2. Create movement lanes for yourself to react to enemy pushes OR create game ending aggression from an unexpected flank. 
How to tell you did this wrong: You died rushing towards a set of enemies without killing any of them while your team holds the caps, and you did not NEED to force game ending aggression at the moment which you died. Most of the time, this is a rush like 1v3 or while the enemy has 6 ships to your 7 left and isn't going to keel over even if you DID kill 1 ship, which surprise, you didn't. 
If you have two caps, hold the two as long as you can. Force the enemy to come to you and take the cap. At the same time, do not sit idly by. 

 

BBs
Lemmings do not work because of theory even if they do in practice sometimes(arguably probably less than not-lemmings work) because real life data /anecdotal data is messy. 
Build crossfires safely. 
If you understand how to take center, do so, esp if your ship is the right type for that. Ex. slow T3-7 USN BBs, JB. There are some BBs are better suited for edges or should use their speed to take a flank (maybe??: Yamato, JB again-surprise, Gneisenau)

Your eyes should be 80-90% of the time on the mini-map. NOT on the big screen. You should be able to move and angle without needing to see. Another 10% of the time should be spent using the big screen to look AROUND you, not at the target you're aiming at. That's right. Point your head to the right. Leave it there. No, stop looking at the center screen. You should be focused on the mini-map. Anyone that's ever played Starcraft or even League of Legends will tell you how this works. 

 

[reserved]

[to be added to]

Edited by BlailBlerg
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I've been focused on Clan Battles and Ranked the past few weeks (both for the first time), and I'm becoming convinced the only way to "git good" is to play in the competitive game modes. I played a Random match last night or the night before just to pick up a container I was few points short of, and was shocked at the mayhem. I can't believe that I played THAT exclusively for nearly 3000 battles and actually enjoyed it. I must have been out of my mind. Don't know what I'll do when CB's and Ranked ends. The grindstone of Random for those of us who are trying to improve and dig ourselves out of the early holes we dug win rate wise is brutal.

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I commented this in a match last night and I will leave it here as well...

"Welcome to the twilight zone of high tier matches... Whatever you were taught on your way up here, throw it out the window... It no longer applies."

Thanks to power creep, where at a point... The rules of engagement are different from tier 8 and up compared to tiers 7 and below..

Whatever you believe to be the road to victory is actually the dead end...

It is what it is...

 

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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Very well written. To a degree I agree with what you say. To a degree I feel it points toward talent.

Jimmy Johnson was asked once when he was head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. Why did he prioritize recruiting the fastest runners. He replied “You can’t coach speed”.

   

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30 minutes ago, Admiral_Ballsey said:

I've been focused on Clan Battles and Ranked the past few weeks (both for the first time), and I'm becoming convinced the only way to "git good" is to play in the competitive game modes. I played a Random match last night or the night before just to pick up a container I was few points short of, and was shocked at the mayhem. I can't believe that I played THAT exclusively for nearly 3000 battles and actually enjoyed it. I must have been out of my mind. Don't know what I'll do when CB's and Ranked ends. The grindstone of Random for those of us who are trying to improve and dig ourselves out of the early holes we dug win rate wise is brutal.

Then there are those who just can’t stand Randoms.

I’m not competitive enough, and by now don’t care to become that way.

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I guess you don't realize most of the players are teenage kids forced to be home because school is closed and camps are closed. And the other half are young adults who lost there jobs and are 3 sheets in the wind(drunk). Oh and I forgot. The I just want to shoot something crowd!!!:cap_cool:

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1 hour ago, BlailBlerg said:

Stop dying. - This is the #1 thing players can do to increase their win rate and their learning. Winrate and death rate are nearly correlant. "Stop dying" is actually the best advice, over even "shoot better or kill more or kill the enemy team". Winning does not actually mean "kill the enemy team" because this game has points. "Stop dying" is a higher correlant to winning. 

Nailed it, the longer you live, the more influence you have on the outcome of the match, its usually the first thing ill point out to a player when they ask how to improve.

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39 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Very well written. To a degree I agree with what you say. To a degree I feel it points toward talent.

Jimmy Johnson was asked once when he was head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. Why did he prioritize recruiting the fastest runners. He replied “You can’t coach speed”.

   

I'm gonna like your post, even though I'm going to argue it softly, mostly cuz its "right". 

A few different concepts exist in this discussion: skill floors/skill ceilings, time/efficiency. 

Where its right:
In terms of practical purposes, in terms actually seeing real results of win rate go up, in terms of using time wisely, in terms of how Real life truly works with all its imbalances, systemic biases and what not. this IS the right call. 

If I'm a coach building a national champion team, I WILL recruit only the best. I may apologize for playing into biases (some ethical, some not-so ethical), but my goal is winning, and I will do what I need to do to win within bounds of ethics and rules. 

There are some traits that are just really hard to match. For instance speed, or pitcher speed, or perfect pitch (to give a similar but different example), or tall-ness for jumping or running, or swiftness of reaction for fencing. 

Also to note: it saves a HUGE amount of time if your recruit is already hugely talented or has previous experience. 

These will generally correlate horribly strongly to winning/win results. One can argue that perhaps the contest isn't particularly fair, but that's a longer (but important) discussion. 

 

---

Where its wrong: 

I'm not a champion team builder. I don't have a staff and backing support group and I'm not financially and life-style invested into this competition/venture/game. 

The difference though, is through education I can teach and build a team of C/B-teamers to play like A-teamers, where their training far exceeds the innate talents of the B-teamers (eg. like a team good aimers in wows). Its also a fun challenge to simply accept almost anyone and everyone into your training camp and transform them into a knowledge and effective unit/participant. 
If you like underdogs, if you like playing open-to-all-community games, I ask for your support here. 

 

People who may seem unique talented or fast may be cultivated from birth to be so: eg. for football experience, Malcolm Gladwell's explanation of how the training system starts young and takes advantage of larger or older students to train leads to a HUGE correlation to birth month to successful career. Certain people aren't quick-reactors, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taught fencing. They'll become faster, and heck, they may eventually move to a style that's less fast like saber or broadsword. Its also why teachers who discourage young, fat/otherwise-unattractive girls from dancing is a bad and unethical thing. A third example: we aren't sure what causes perfect pitch, there's some suggestions its possible to force this as a talent before the age of 4 by exposing the baby to certain stimulus. 
Some things are truly talents or innate. Some competitions may be unfair in terms of rewarding certain body types. In some cases, things may seem like an innate talent but actually are not and are byproducts of environment/training/inherited knowledge of family/person breeding. 

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I'm going to ask for more support here. 

 

You can support this initiative by add more content, and by creating master-posts early in the thread where you summarize all your main ideas and points. 

You can also summarize other people's points so as to emphasize by repetition and create stronger signals as to what most of believe is good strategy. 

 

You can also like my OP if you'd like, haha so I feel better and more assured that people in this thread in particular want to come together for mutually benefiting each other and that I'm writing sensibly enough for most of you to like. Also it rubs me ego good. 

 

-----

I'm saving and following this thread w/o notifications so I can pass it to people who want to learn , and to provide more in-depth explanation than I'm able to give in the moment of battle. Enough arguing with people in the first 1 minute about why their particular lemming position has already lost them the game. 

I suggest you all do it too. and we can build this as a open-source resource. 

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In a small portion of the video I'm going to share, from Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles on youtube, there is a mention of discussing and comparing plane capabilities and plane's positions and movement during a dogfight.  They point out that smart pilots discussed the "what to do in situation <insert-situation-here>" before being in an actual dogfight.
The mental training and decision processes learned beforehand enabled good pilots to make good decisions in a dogfight quickly.
The didn't have to spend time "thinking" about the decision because they'd already done the thinking beforehand and proved the concepts during training flights before deploying to a combat situation.

The improvement that is possible, with good information and sound teachings, is worth the investment in time & effort of many players in order to improve their in-game performance, in my opinion.
 

 

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Point taken. I didn’t mean that as a slam on anyone. I applaud anyone who decides to better themselves and does their Due Diligence to improve. As many have commented about the noticeable increased occurrence of one sided matches that usually snowball to avalanche within the first five to seven minutes. Maybe it would improve PvP and PvE matches noticeably. 
 

I was just alluding to there are different levels of talent. This is a FTP MMO game. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you don’t have purple numbers. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you can’t rank out in ranked or ranked sprint. I guarantee you WG would rather you have a good experience and have fun opposed pulling your hair out because of bad experiences and quitting the game. It’s much more cost effective to retain customers than having to constantly replace them.  

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13 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In a small portion of the video I'm going to share, from Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles on youtube, there is a mention of discussing and comparing plane capabilities and plane's positions and movement during a dogfight.  They point out that smart pilots discussed the "what to do in situation <insert-situation-here>" before being in an actual dogfight.
The mental training and decision processes learned beforehand enabled good pilots to make good decisions in a dogfight quickly.
The didn't have to spend time "thinking" about the decision because they'd already done the thinking beforehand and proved the concepts during training flights before deploying to a combat situation.

The improvement that is possible, with good information and sound teachings, is worth the investment in time & effort of many players in order to improve their in-game performance, in my opinion.
 

 

I really want to see more military-level mental and strategy training shared in this thread. 

My style is more meant for games/sports/hobbies, but we could really benefit from military experience. 

Edited by BlailBlerg

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Just now, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Point taken. I didn’t mean that as a slam on anyone. I applaud anyone who decides to better themselves and does their Due Diligence to improve. As many have commented about the noticeable increased occurrence of one sided matches that usually snowball to avalanche within the first five to seven minutes. Maybe it would improve PvP and PvE matches noticeably. 
 

I was just alluding to there are different levels of talent. This is a FTP MMO game. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you don’t have purple numbers. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you can’t rank out in ranked or ranked sprint. I guarantee you WG would rather you have a good experience and have fun opposed pulling your hair out because of bad experiences and quitting the game. It’s much more cost effective to retain customers than having to constantly replace them.  

Great spirit. I don't think you meant anything poor in what you said. I think it was great discussion and a great point. Thank you. 

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6 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

I really want to see more military-level mental and strategy training shared in this thread. 

My style is more meant for games/sports/hobbies, but we could really benefit from military experience. 

:cap_like:

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Chat is mostly worthless but every now and then there can be useful information exchanged between players. The BBig guns should let their little buDDies know that you got that cap they're headed for covered. If the DDs want to take a round about route to that cap let the rest of us know and then that way when you do decide it's safe enough to rush that cap we'll know to cover your backside. At the very least when I'm driving a DD is I'll hit the F5 key a few klicks out.

It doesn't take a whole lot of shared info to turn a group of strangers into something resembling a team. Just let your team mates know what your intentions are and then they can work off that.

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Marking the thread, surely will post something latter. 

Kudos OP for at least opening a door for discussing something more interesting and constructive than the standard rant/thread

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Well intentioned, but no longer relevant.
With the tank game, I put a massive amount of time into studying replays,
developing strategies for individual maps, testing the strategies,
keeping what worked and changing what didn't, and was successful.
But then...
WeeGee came along and 'dumbed down' the maps, ruining all my work.
Conversations with other players informed me about other strategies that I hadn't even thought of,
that also got wrecked.
Since nobody is paying me a salary to constantly develop new strategies, it became a wasted effort.
It also marked a huge culture shift in gaming.
After WeeGee pulled that stunt, nobody took the game serious anymore.

So while your efforts may help some newbies,
my fear is that you might be offering false hope to young players who haven't studied their history,
and will be setup for a rude awakening when it happens to them.

Good luck though.

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11 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Point taken. I didn’t mean that as a slam on anyone. I applaud anyone who decides to better themselves and does their Due Diligence to improve. As many have commented about the noticeable increased occurrence of one sided matches that usually snowball to avalanche within the first five to seven minutes. Maybe it would improve PvP and PvE matches noticeably. 
 

I was just alluding to there are different levels of talent. This is a FTP MMO game. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you don’t have purple numbers. Don’t beat yourself up and lose sleep if you can’t rank out in ranked or ranked sprint. I guarantee you WG would rather you have a good experience and have fun opposed pulling your hair out because of bad experiences and quitting the game. It’s much more cost effective to retain customers than having to constantly replace them.  

There has always been different levels of talent but the overall talent has fallen.

Blowouts happen but the amount of blowouts has increased as well has one side not losing anyships or just one.

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6 hours ago, z9_ said:

Well intentioned, but no longer relevant.
With the tank game, I put a massive amount of time into studying replays,
developing strategies for individual maps, testing the strategies,
keeping what worked and changing what didn't, and was successful.
But then...
WeeGee came along and 'dumbed down' the maps, ruining all my work.
Conversations with other players informed me about other strategies that I hadn't even thought of,
that also got wrecked.
Since nobody is paying me a salary to constantly develop new strategies, it became a wasted effort.
It also marked a huge culture shift in gaming.
After WeeGee pulled that stunt, nobody took the game serious anymore.

So while your efforts may help some newbies,
my fear is that you might be offering false hope to young players who haven't studied their history,
and will be setup for a rude awakening when it happens to them.

Good luck though.

+1

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13 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

----

*reasoning of this can come later. 

The issue is how to get this and any other valuable information to those that need it. Most here have decent to excellent stats. It's trying to teach the unteachable.... the 15,000 game player who still loses 60% of his games and has less than half of the average damage in every ship he plays. And they are out there by the thousands. 

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Good Job OP.

But

It is mu conclusion the Developers of this game DO NOT care about a person or team winning. You can make all the videos in the world (Many CC's Have) that show people how to play a ships and even how to carry somewhat but even the best of them even in divisions cannot always win, when you have a bunch of tater-tots.

The Devs just not allow for team play or they would allow for larger divisions and have a voice chat for the entire team (both encourage team play)
The game in Randoms is actually more designed to say your playing live players so people feel good about killing another person.
The Devs also encourages as we have seen SPENDING MONEY more than earning by experience ships.

I never used MMM ive said it in past how dumb it was, But the last couple of nights I ran it and what I see is people with so few battles (exp) in t-9 and 10 games. The Devs dont care and do not build the game for team work or Winning, hell or even the all mighty stats some care about, They care about one thing and one thing only MONEY.

I love to win but learned a long time ago, no matter how hard you try, you cannot control a team of Potato-heads. I have seen people I know did 200k plus damage Kraken and numerous other achievements still loose, I have had those games as well. 

The Sad part is a good True Teamwork game probably could generate tons of revenue and be a much better environment to play in.

But keep posting the vids it might help someone.

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15 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Then there are those who just can’t stand Randoms.

I’m not competitive enough, and by now don’t care to become that way.

WR is so overrated in this game.  People bow down to people with win rates of 55% or higher.  Unfortunately, there are so many variables at play in winning, the quality of this individual player isn't necessarily reflected by WR.

You, the player, are but 1 piece of the puzzle.  There are 23 other players in randoms, making smart or dumb decisions which impact your WR directly.   Everyone has been on a team where there are absolute morons and there is no way you can carry the match.  For example: All DDs rush up the crack in Twins and die in 5 min for fun,,,, you lose. And through no fault (or skill) of your own, the outcome of the match impacts your WR.

My WR improved over time when I started play in divisions with other good players.  Thus reducing the number of stupid players in a match.  Once my friends left (after CV rework), my WR has leveled off at around 50.  Big deal.  It doesn't mean I'm a good or bad player.  Same for a guy with WR of 60.  It only means he is consistently on teams with good players.  Probably in a division with other clan mates.

In many matches, players post in chat "watch out for player XYZ, they have a 65% WR. They're good."   Then me or someone else promptly sank them without mercy.

Is what it is.

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