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NoZoupForYou

The Buff we Wanted! KMDDs

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Love me some destroyers. Thanks for the vid, Zoup

T61 is the only German DD I’ve played in months, maybe half a year...Must be, I played them during the last snowflake event. Other than that, between all the new lines, the events, the endless grinds, I look at the Zzzzzz class destroyers and there’s been no reason to play. They literally haven’t even been fun anymore, which is too bad.

I hope you’re right and this buff adds some much needed relevance, and maybe even some additional tweaks if needed. Z52 was a bully beast back in the day.

Edited by kagero__

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This will make me consider Z-23 again. I miss my Z-39.

~Hunter

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Nice video Zoup! Personally as someone who owns and plays all German ships I find this buff a little lacking to be honest. I mean the pen buff feels more like a normalization than a buff, but hey this a nice start.

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1 minute ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

Video discussing the history and need for buffs.

Can we get a TL;DR on what the specific buffs are?

 

On German destroyers, the armor penetration of HE shells was increased from 21 to 32 mm for 128 mm guns, and from 25 to 38 mm for 150mm guns . The change affects the following ships:

  • VI Ernst Gaede
  • VI T-61
  • VII Z-39
  • VII Leberecht Maass
  • VIII Z-23
  • IX Z-46
  • X Z-52

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It is the buff that has been requested a lot, but not the one they needed.

The problem with German DDs is not their inability to damage larger ships with gunfire. That's not their role to begin with. They were introduced to fight for caps, and their tools were tailored around this with their smoke+hydro combo, which made them very strong against the DDs that were around back then. But since then a few things changed that made this niche more risky, or that even made certain tactics impossible.

More radars have been introduced, which while they do not threaten the destroyers themselves, they take away their utility to spot in the cap. British destroyers appeared, which are better cap contesters. And of course the flood change came, which basically did away with the previously viable tactic of stacking floods thanks to the fast torp reload, which used to offset the lacking Alpha.

This change enables German DDs to apply their pathetic HE dpm to more ships. It does not help them in their cap niche. It does not solve their WG-caused inability to stack DoT on larger ships. If anything this change will encourage people to try and gunboat against larger ships.

Now WG could have gone for an HE Alpha buff so that Z-52 does not have the same HE dpm as Shimakaze. Or they could have gone for slight concealment buffs. Or could have given German Hydro to the DDs that didn't have it before.

It's a buff for sure. But it doesn't solve the problem.

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5 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Now WG could have gone for an HE Alpha buff so that Z-52 does not have the same HE dpm as Shimakaze. Or they could have gone for slight concealment buffs. Or could have given German Hydro to the DDs that didn't have it before.

Giving them a stealth hydro is probably not great, and in the current condition where they only outgun Shima in HE DPM I doubt it would be that useful.

 

That HE buff is good and helps German DD deal damage on bigger prey, but as SirenRacker said they where geared into DD hunting and cap contesting , and HE penetration do not help.

In my opinion, they should get an improve AP bounce angle on their AP and/ or maybe a fuse adjustment. They HE may lack, but their AP is good. The issue is that good player will angle away and nullify your AP potential, improve angle would at least make it more difficult and more useful in knife fight.

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46 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

It is the buff that has been requested a lot, but not the one they needed.

The problem with German DDs is not their inability to damage larger ships with gunfire. That's not their role to begin with. They were introduced to fight for caps, and their tools were tailored around this with their smoke+hydro combo, which made them very strong against the DDs that were around back then. But since then a few things changed that made this niche more risky, or that even made certain tactics impossible.

More radars have been introduced, which while they do not threaten the destroyers themselves, they take away their utility to spot in the cap. British destroyers appeared, which are better cap contesters. And of course the flood change came, which basically did away with the previously viable tactic of stacking floods thanks to the fast torp reload, which used to offset the lacking Alpha.

This change enables German DDs to apply their pathetic HE dpm to more ships. It does not help them in their cap niche. It does not solve their WG-caused inability to stack DoT on larger ships. If anything this change will encourage people to try and gunboat against larger ships.

Now WG could have gone for an HE Alpha buff so that Z-52 does not have the same HE dpm as Shimakaze. Or they could have gone for slight concealment buffs. Or could have given German Hydro to the DDs that didn't have it before.

It's a buff for sure. But it doesn't solve the problem.

now now.. you can't actually make German anything viable past a meme. We all know how WGing operates here..

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2 hours ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

Video discussing the history and need for buffs.

Can we get a TL;DR on what the specific buffs are?

 

but then how would Zoup get his views? Honestly, topics that have no content or info whatsoever and only serve as an advertisement to somebody's youtube channel should be against the rules.

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3 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

It is the buff that has been requested a lot, but not the one they needed.

The problem with German DDs is not their inability to damage larger ships with gunfire. That's not their role to begin with. They were introduced to fight for caps, and their tools were tailored around this with their smoke+hydro combo, which made them very strong against the DDs that were around back then. But since then a few things changed that made this niche more risky, or that even made certain tactics impossible.

More radars have been introduced, which while they do not threaten the destroyers themselves, they take away their utility to spot in the cap. British destroyers appeared, which are better cap contesters. And of course the flood change came, which basically did away with the previously viable tactic of stacking floods thanks to the fast torp reload, which used to offset the lacking Alpha.

This change enables German DDs to apply their pathetic HE dpm to more ships. It does not help them in their cap niche. It does not solve their WG-caused inability to stack DoT on larger ships. If anything this change will encourage people to try and gunboat against larger ships.

Now WG could have gone for an HE Alpha buff so that Z-52 does not have the same HE dpm as Shimakaze. Or they could have gone for slight concealment buffs. Or could have given German Hydro to the DDs that didn't have it before.

It's a buff for sure. But it doesn't solve the problem.

Buffing KM DDs against other DDs would only add to the DD vs. DD arms race/power creep. Gearing used to be the cap bully until the KM DDs came along, now RN DDs are the cap bullies. Trying to make KM DDs out bully the RN ones leads to nowhere fun in the end. 

DDs are already getting soft nerfed from all directions(CV, subs, more radar, stealth radar), buffing the KM DDs to make them even more effective against larger targets helps the KM boats without soft nerfing other DDs.

Edited by VeatherVitch

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Best buff to a ship like Z-52 would be 12km torps.     an addition of 1.5km would be a welcome change to the amount of Radar/CV spotting out there.

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4 hours ago, Kuramitsu said:

On German destroyers, the armor penetration of HE shells was increased from 21 to 32 mm for 128 mm guns, and from 25 to 38 mm for 150mm guns . The change affects the following ships:

  • VI Ernst Gaede
  • VI T-61
  • VII Z-39
  • VII Leberecht Maass
  • VIII Z-23
  • IX Z-46
  • X Z-52

So they finally treated the German DD guns the same benefit they had as CL Main  / German Secondary weapons.

32mm is the HE Pen for the Gneisenau / GK / upcoming Odin 128mm secondaries.

38mm is same value as the 150mm CL guns as found on Nurnberg, Konigsberg, and the recent Mainz.

Over the years I found that odd how their own DDs never got the same perk.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/22

I'm not even a DD Main, much less a fan of the German DD Line, but this looks good.

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5 hours ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Finally!  I hope they review all older lines...

 

It isn't the buff I wanted but they definitely needed it. :)

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While i am glad they are getting some love, this change more than likely wont change much.  The HE alpha is so low that you are better off using AP more often than not and aiming for things that you may just overpen.  This wont turn them into the aki line.  I am happy they  standardized the pen.

 

Personally, i was hoping for changes to the AP which is their strong point. 

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5 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

Giving them a stealth hydro is probably not great, and in the current condition where they only outgun Shima in HE DPM I doubt it would be that useful.

In a 1v1 scenario, their DPM is functionally the same, thou shima will get first salvo due to concealment. 

Shima

6x2150x10.45rpm=134805

Z52

6x1500x15rpm=135000

 

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
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29 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

In a 1v1 scenario, their DPM is functionally the same, thou shima will get first salvo due to concealment. 

Shima

6x2150x10.45rpm=134805

Z52

6x1500x15rpm=135000

 

And Shima is supposed to be the worst gun boat.

z52 redeeming factor is her AP, but outside of good damage it is lacking (poor penetration, fuse time somewhat too long to reliably damage dd, not bonus on bounce angle..)

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5 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

It is the buff that has been requested a lot, but not the one they needed.

The problem with German DDs is not their inability to damage larger ships with gunfire. That's not their role to begin with. They were introduced to fight for caps, and their tools were tailored around this with their smoke+hydro combo, which made them very strong against the DDs that were around back then. But since then a few things changed that made this niche more risky, or that even made certain tactics impossible.

More radars have been introduced, which while they do not threaten the destroyers themselves, they take away their utility to spot in the cap. British destroyers appeared, which are better cap contesters. And of course the flood change came, which basically did away with the previously viable tactic of stacking floods thanks to the fast torp reload, which used to offset the lacking Alpha.

This change enables German DDs to apply their pathetic HE dpm to more ships. It does not help them in their cap niche. It does not solve their WG-caused inability to stack DoT on larger ships. If anything this change will encourage people to try and gunboat against larger ships.

Now WG could have gone for an HE Alpha buff so that Z-52 does not have the same HE dpm as Shimakaze. Or they could have gone for slight concealment buffs. Or could have given German Hydro to the DDs that didn't have it before.

It's a buff for sure. But it doesn't solve the problem.

What is the pen like on the AP? Could anything in the shell properties be messaged? Maybe like tachinana style AP?

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37 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

In a 1v1 scenario, their DPM is functionally the same, thou shima will get first salvo due to concealment. 

Japanese torpedo DD gun alpha is nasty, and a lot can come down to the exact circumstances of the engagement, who is driving the ships, and how healthy each one is to start.  That first shot can make all the difference if it catches the Z-52 driver flat-footed and causes him to panic. After that, the Shima is likely to land more shots and punish the Z harder. If the Z captain can keep his head and shoot straight, he might be able to out-DPM the Shima into the grave, or break so much that it makes the other ship an easy target. 

And then there is the will of RNGesus to break rudders and engines, start fires, and the like.

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47 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

What is the pen like on the AP? Could anything in the shell properties be messaged? Maybe like tachinana style AP?

AP pen German 128s only beat British 113s and Japanese 100mms, pretty garbage, and they don't get bonus autobounce angles (113mm) or the ability to fuse on DDs (100mm)

If anything, make it so the AP is more Groz or FR DD AP, where it can citadel cruisers reliably, or shorten the fuse threshold and arming time, so AP can activate on more than just select DDs.

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38 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Japanese torpedo DD gun alpha is nasty, and a lot can come down to the exact circumstances of the engagement, who is driving the ships, and how healthy each one is to start.  That first shot can make all the difference if it catches the Z-52 driver flat-footed and causes him to panic. After that, the Shima is likely to land more shots and punish the Z harder. If the Z captain can keep his head and shoot straight, he might be able to out-DPM the Shima into the grave, or break so much that it makes the other ship an easy target. 

And then there is the will of RNGesus to break rudders and engines, start fires, and the like.

The average Shima will forget that it have guns tho. Too often a caught a shima with my z52 and the shima flee while trying to go dark instead of fight.

 

But it is still kinda sad that a DD that was suppose to be a dd hunter at some point fails to that point

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