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Pulicat

Submarines: A guide on How to Use, and Fight Against Them. Improvement Ideas and General Thoughts at the End. 

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I think that submarines realistically only are going to be balanced (assuming quite a few changes to the current implementation, such as those you suggest) if they can completely replace destroyer players in terms of spotting/capping.

However:

  • This requires destroyer players on the whole to adapt to this playstyle (and NOT just yolo after subs in caps)
    • I'm unsure if this will happen given how many DD players haven't changed their playstyle at all due to radar or CVs
  • This means destroyers will have minimal role in game unless WG finds some other reason for them to exist

I'm not certain whether I believe a class that largely has not adapted much to radar/CVs will do this if subs are added. Maybe? Who knows.

One additional suggestions is to make subs change depths less quickly (or heavily penalize them for doing so). The game at 6m right now is only possible because of how fast subs can dive/surface.

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For those destroyers which are more 'cap oriented' i.e. close range weapons, neither run-and-gun or torpedo boats I don't think subs are a 'help', having your role taken does not help. 

If you can't be up front scouting, potentially contesting, adding smoke to the mix what are you supposed to do? Even the mid-range (8km) torps at T6 are pointless with a sub between you and any target. Smoke shooting is very dangerous with subs able to move up and spot you/your team. 

 

So far I just don't want to play destroyers in a sub match. Adding 3 more red ships that hugely outspot you, forcing a retreat every time you move up to get unspotted and untargeted by the red sub's mates... It's kinda abysmal. 

Edited by mofton
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Excellent post.

Some additional thoughts for consideration:

  • Small stuff
    • It would be helpful for submarines to be able to see their torpedo firing arc while underwater (without the predictive white line)
    • Since Submarines have "Dive" mapped to the C key, by default they can't use the C key to toggle between their torps after using the Z key to focus on them
    • Battery management has room for improvement, such as showing the total capacity and the current regeneration rate
    • Being proximity spotted by a submarine that has dived underneath while it remains invisible to you is extremely frustrating
    • How will radar affect subs?
  • Big stuff
    • The 5.9/6.1m problem is heavily exacerbated by the quick surface/submerge process. I would consider making it more akin to a battleship's rudder shift time, especially when combined with different caliber shells causing damage at different depths
    • Domination battles in particular struggle with subs since if the sub's team is winning on caps even if horribly down on ships, it's possible for the sub to simply win by diving and hiding long enough to win on cap ticks
    • Subs are proving to be superior spotters to DDs, but utilizing the current ASW methods are extremely risky/suicidal if the sub has any support nearby. This heavily, negatively influences the impact of concealment, especially when combined in matches with carriers.
    • Matches feel much emptier with 3 subs and 1 CV since there are only 8 surface ships compared to the usual 12.

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Thanks Pulicat for posting. I still have two more coal containers to go through before I get to the last container with the submarine.

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A lot of good info, thank you.

I agree on just about everything except the 1-2km buff to short range DD torpedo's.  If subs do get fully implemented and afterwards DD's do need this then I'll get behind it.  My only concern is balancing issues it may or may not have towards other ships.

46 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

14. Increase Match Limit From 12 to 15 per side.  If subs are taking up part of the 12 slots, games will seem emptier than they really are. With the addition of a class, you must increase space to accommodate that class.

This was something that has been on my mind.  I have been watching some sub replays and I can agree with you the matches do feel very empty.  Empty and boring.  I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in total ships per side.  I wonder if the desync problems would get worse though.

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My OPINIONS on your suggested changes based of my limited experiences with and against subs..

1. Battery Recharge Delay. I dont think this is a big enough or common enough issue to need changing.

2. Depth Charge Mortars. actually I propose that this concept could be a BB last ditch defence. A BB has the deck space to mount such a concept. It would be a very limited arc and not manually targetable at ranges, just a single shotgun of DC out to 4km in front for lower damage than a DD DC. This would give a BB a small chance, provide a morale boost for the BB player (that could also be used to bait an overconfidence charge) and maybe scare off a timid SS.

3. Depth Charges hurt at any level. 4. Depth Charges hurt your own ship if you are near them when they explode. These two have to go hand in hand. I'd rather it be left as is... as one thing i can predict if DCs are like torps and no ones friend once dropped, is that there will be a lot of people sinking themselves and being banished to the realms of pinkdom. And I think we'd rather that our DD on low hp, regarldess of how bad they might be, to remain alive and am asset rather than lost points to the team. Should we also talk about how you can drop DC on an enemy sub and not hurt our friendly sub 200m away from it?

5. Ping Aert. I can see both sides of this. an inbuilt priority target equivalet gives the fat targets more of a chance, however the idea of the subs should allow them the ability to remain silent assassins in this regard. Im leaning towards no ping alert.

6. Sonobouy. yep. this. already asked WG for this in my reports.

7. Plane Launched Depth Charges. yeeeahhh, while im all for CV utility packages, I think this would only be useful for helping a sub hunting pack thats already hunting at some distance, not as a mothership defence strike. Take 2 minutes to F back load up some DCs and fly out... SS ascends 1m and immune, F back grab some rockets... SS descends 1m. mostly a waste.

8. Different shell calibers hurt subs at deeper depths. an interesting proposal. not against it. however thats a lot of mechanical rewroking on WGs side to enable this, so less likely from that perspective, especially if all calibers have different water penetration values, rather than CA-8m, BB 10m. Additionally (im not sure on this one) but would the size and water pen difference be noticable from a real perspective... I seem to remeber a mythbusters where they tested a 9mm vs .50 in water and found both dropped off drastically.

9. Subs take longer to cap. nope. dont take things away that would encourage more players to avoid caps. too many people ignore points in order to farm damage and make the loss happen as is.

10. Concealment/spotting against enemy Subs. well, sure, the horizon as viewed from a periscope is probable closer than that from a yardarm. No from me for reduced spotting at normal depth, but absolutely lose all spotting including proxy when at crush depth.

11. DD extended torpedo ranges. not neccessary. campers gonna camp... to use the vernacular. more to the point, saying that the RU 4km torps should be made 5km to help that DD means that pretty much all torp ranges of all DDs in all tiers would have to be relooked at and rebalanced. DDs will just have to learn to treat a sub like an early cap... ie, theres a time and a place for aggression, but you need to learn how to identify whats bait and bide your time.

12. Remove battery recharging underwater. 13. Add Speed Debuffs to Subs Out of Battery. recharge at full stop only at normal depth not deeo dive. 1/4 speed without recharge ability if below 25% battery.

14. Increase Match Limit From 12 to 15 per side.  theres not always going to be 3 subs a side once the 'craze' dies down no? However I would be very much for a 15v15 if the server population and MM can handle it. more HP on the field means less blowouts in the early game (still possible over time). more ships over more ocean meaning less gaps (but lemmings gonna lemming) and more tactical play. Not sure if this would fit in with WGs faster game policy? I'd certainly like more ships out there to do whatever my thing is against, and more choices in how to play that those extra ships might bring.

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Played a sub battle with Molotov - not exactly optimal, but what the heck.  Most of both team lemming  to one side, my side a few kills are made and it’s just me and an enemy sub in the cap.  Soooo.... we just stare at each other until the end of the game?  Who the fsck thought this was a good design?

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Nice post, TY 

Some ideas about mechanics:

Depth Management: on paper having a seamless depth transition looks nice and more fluid but we have the 6 mts wall thing. I think in this case a step back would be better and having fixed depth levels with times to transition between them would be fix some of the more critical issues. 

Lets say surface, periscope, shallow, medium and max depths. I would say add a targeting reticule for surface and periscope and limit the firing of conventional torps to those depths.

Transitions between depths could be adjusted as necesary but lets say for example you need 5 secs to go from surface to periscope, now you'll need to considering the delay when manouvering under fire. 

Depth levels can be managed by a throttle like the engine.

Speed and batery consumption should be related to depth. The more depth, the slower and the more battery you burn.

Underwater engagements: I would replace the hability of firing "conventional" torps while submerged by a consumable "acoustic" torp that works similar to the current ones but at limited quantities and maybe with better homing performance, if a "solution" is fixed on the target by pings/hydro. What I mean is engaging while underwater should be a last resort defensive option, standard offensive operations should be conducted at surface/periscope depths.

Underwater communication: there should not be communication between a submerged sub and its team, no relaying of info nor spotting while the sub in below periscope level. If you ask me I would even freeze minimap to last know positions. Going deep should be for defense/evade, not a viable operational doctrine.

Edited by ArIskandir
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Excellent post Pulicat. +1

I agree with most of what you’ve said, and would be willing to give your proposals a try.

Something to add to the discussion that has been on the back of my mind, but that I do not have a fully thought out proposal:

MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) it could maybe implemented as a captain skill to help with the detection of submarines. It could also be used instead or complementing your sonobouy proposal.

And of course I have been proposing the return of odd tier CVs that could include ASW squadrons.

Edited by CO_Valle
MAD in bolds

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Using dark theme here and its impossible to read your post just pointing that out. Please edit your post with text that can be read in both themes.

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8 minutes ago, Z3r0Fear said:

Using dark theme here and its impossible to read your post just pointing that out. Please edit your post with text that can be read in both themes.

I don't even know what I would do. Does highlighting the text as if you're going to copy it not make it readable at least?

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31 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Hello. To those who don't know me, I spent a lot of time trying to get WGs attention about CV problems, during their release, to get them to improve the balance of the game. Some of those things were successful, and others were not. With Subs on the horizon, and my opinion of their inclusion in their current state being questionable at best, I will do the same with them. If you're looking for a guide with no opinions, this isn't for you. Most of this is not numbers, but an opinion on the workings of the class. As we deep dive into how this class interacts with others, you will learn how to become better at them. It is my hope that with this knowledge you will improve, and shed further light on their issues, in the hopes that a better product is given. 

I will provide highlights of matches when discussing each sub type below (2 for each). These were taken from a 2-hour stream. I do not think this is indicative of what each battle would look like, as there are bots in the midst and players are still adjusting. Despite that, I don't think the evidence of sub strength is any less meaningful as it is displayed. I pulled the best game I had, and an average game I had for each nations sub.

If any Wargaming people read this, I want to say I disagree with whatever decisions led to not allowing subs to be brought into training room. I think this makes it harder for people to test the limits and interactions with other ships, which would have best been done in a closed environment. The Battle mode already has bots in them anyway, and you allowed carriers to be used in the training room during their PTS session last year. I am happy about your reserved pace in introducing subs to us, but it would be nice to try these in other modes as well.

I have spoiler'd everything below so you can find quickly and read only what you are interested in, or tackle the read in chunks. This is about 4000 words. 

  

Submarine Gameplay  

 

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The simplest way I can describe sub gameplay is that they replace a major role of destroyers, to spot and joust with the enemy. They can also cap better than DDs, and screen torpedoes better. You may think that this hurts DDs, but in fact it actually helps them immensely. DDs are very vulnerable doing these jobs, which shortens their life expectancy considerably. Subs on the other hand are not vulnerable at all (as we will see), especially if a DD is able to support it from behind in their new safety net of a cruisers AA influence, exactly where they want to be in a cv rework world.

At their core, subs ping and torp to kill things. On the surface, it is much easier for you to aim your pings and your torpedoes (since you get the white line indicator) but you are easy to spot by a sub that is underwater. You also get concealment debuffs applied to you when you ping on the surface. When underwater, it is much safer for you, but harder to aim your pings and torpedoes, and your battery life will also drain. When you are underwater with no battery, you will not be able to ping. Battery life is important. Always try to recharge it when you can, and remember that your battery will recharge underwater as well, if you are going ¼ speed or less. The more you play, the better you will become at operating between these 2 states

The biggest hindrance for subs comes from their lack of speed. If you want to remain influential, you must always push the front-line and keep moving. This requires a lot of attention, since enemy ships will be around you a lot. You turn slow, so you must plan attacks in advance, and remember that you can send pings in any direction. As long as you don't overextend and pay attention, the only way you die is if your team does. You also can't flex across the map like a DD can, so it's important to really evaluate if your presence is necessary at the flank you are on, and rotate immediately if it's not. 

When operating a sub, most times you should be at a 5.9 depth. If you don't know, it's because this is the threshold of where enemies can see/shoot you. If they do, all you need to do is quick dive to 6.1 and you are invulnerable to any salvo's that were fired against you. You can also maintain your battery life and vision control against enemy ships at 5.9. The only reason you should be diving any further than 7m is to fight other subs. And yes, that includes enemy DDs charging you with intent to depth charge you (more on that in sub vs dd). 

I've seen a lot of sub players in game be very stationary and cautious, sitting at the edge of engagement zones and launching torps as if they're underwater turrets. Don't do this. Be active with your submarine, get in the opponents face, maneuver around skirting the edge of their front line and bait ships to come after you or be scared of you and run away. You will see more of what i'm talking about in some of the match highlights, but in short, be aggressive and confident.

 

 

Submarine Consumables

 

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Let's talk about all of their tools in order from left to right. https://i.imgur.com/nL9UYes.png 

Sonar Ping. You have 2 variants, a fast, narrow ping and a slow, wide ping. For most situations I would recommend the fast ping. While you do have to be more accurate, it gives the target less time to unknowingly maneuver and mess up your ping prediction. The wide ping is good for long distance shots against targets that can't maneuver (Battleships) or extremely close range where the travel time for the ping is minimal anyway. 

For me, pinging has been the hardest to get used to. Not only do you lack a useful reticle for judging distance (probably a good thing), but it is extremely hard to imagine those distances underwater. I would recommend spending your time at the beginning of the match pinging your allied ships. It should help build familiarity quicker. 

Torpedoes. You might think we don't need to talk about these, but there are some peculiarities about them that are important. The obvious one is that they are homing, but not all the time. There is a delay on homing from when you launch them, and they also stop homing in on targets within certain distances to the target. Even though they stop homing, they DO NOT stop turning, they simply do not change their trajectory anymore. 

Sub torpedoes also do not have torpedo dispersion. Instead they will ALWAYS keep a certain distance from the other torpedo(es) in the group. If the 'center' of the target is in between the 2 torpedoes you launched, they will not converge together on it. It's best to think about a torpedo group as a single unit, and not separate torpedoes. This mechanic actually benefits the ships subs are attacking somewhat, since they will always have gaps. At tier 6, there is only the 1 gap, but when subs get 3 or 4 torpedo racks, they will keep those gaps and being bow/stern on will still mitigate a lot of damage. 

Using the torpedoes homing feature can actually produce bad results in rare circumstances, such as a full speed DD perpendicular to you. The homing will always make them miss since they are too fast, though you will also struggle with relying on white lining them.  

You should NEVER fire both (or more) sets of torpedoes in the exact same direction. Spread them out as you would any DD fired torpedoes to maximize your chances of a hit. 

Damage Control Party. Near useless currently. DoT damage does so little to you, and any extra damage actually helps your adrenaline rush skill. If you should somehow find yourself being hit with depth charges (though this should rarely happen) make sure you do not use your DCP until they are done dropping. The DoT damage does very little, don't panic DCP. 

Maximum Depth. If anti sub gameplay were to operate as it should, this consumable would be OP. It allows you to go do a depth that enemy depth charges can barely hurt you (maybe 30% total damage at best), all the while you are spotting what is attacking you for your team. It should always result in a bad experience for the ship with depth charges, and the only way they should be able to kill you with depth charges is when this consumable is on cooldown. Unfortunately, diving deep is the LAST thing you want to do when something is threatening you with depth charges, more about that in sub vs dd. 

All nations (currently) have different active times of this consumable. Cachalot is active for 3 minutes, U-69 for 2 minutes and S-1 for 1 minute. 

Second Consumable. Each nation (so far) has a different one. This is also where we will talk about the strengths and weaknesses of the subs we have currently. 

 

 

Nation Submarine Strength & Weaknesses

 

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Cachalot: Speed Boost. It's alright. Since cachalot plays more long range, it can get you to relevant parts of the map. Cachalot is tied for second best with S-1 in my opinion. It has higher HP and longer range making it a pain to bring down. These are like sniper subs. The way I went about playing it was just doing constant circles while pinging and launching torps. You are able to do a full circle in the time it takes your torpedoes to reload. 

Cachalot does have some weaknesses. Its homing torpedoes don’t actually turn very well, meaning sudden changes of ship directions at long range, and sometimes even short range, will result in a miss. This sub also does poorly fighting against other subs. Its torps reload slow and don’t do a lot of damage, which can put you at a disadvantage really quickly against a maneuvering opponent sub. You do have a slight battery life advantage however, and can take a bit of a beating while waiting for help. 

Cachalot Match 1     Cachalot Match 2

S-1: Heal. Probably the second best consumable of the three. You can be somewhat aggressive and make enemies shoot you at 5.9 and waste their salvos. However, it has battery life and maneuverability problems. It lacks the torp range of Cach and the close-range effectiveness of U-69, making it sort of a hybrid. It can mid-range snipe, and has the torp reload to fight other subs, and its heal can back it up. 

What S-1 does have going for it is great homing torpedoes, which can give you the edge against other subs if they try to avoid them. A drawback is that your own maneuverability is weak, so the same could happen to you. 

S-1 Match 1   S-1 Match 2

U-69: Hydro. This consumable makes you a front-line monster. Coupled with your 4.3 concealment on the surface, and minimal ping detection debuff, you are the binoculars of your team. While the hydro doesn't last long, it does everything it needs to. It spots enemy DDs in their smokes and forces them out. Spots any torpedoes going for your allies. And most importantly, it lets you spot subs from further away than they can see you. You ping them, you torp them, you kill them.  

Your lack of torp range is laughable when you realize it's not hard to get close to enemy ships at all, and their damage is devastating to whatever you target. The only flaw is having a single torp launch on your stern. Playing close to the enemy is dangerous, and you will die if you make mistakes, but it is rewarding and a lot of fun to be in the thick of it with all your advantages. 

U-69 Match 1    U-69 Match 2

 

 

Subs Interacting With Subs

 

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Killing or damaging an enemy sub should always be a priority for you. They are the only thing that can hurt you from far away, so eliminating them will open up the battlefield, because it’s the best spotting the enemy will have. 

When it comes to engaging subs, you should dive down to their depth. If they are near their max depth for some reason (50ish meters), release a torp salvo at their level and then another 15 meters above them. This will eliminate some escape routes they have. Always ping first as it's important for your torps to be able to react as early as possible, and keep pinging as you change your depth so it’s different than theirs. If they did launch torps at you, its much easier to avoid them with depth than perpendicular distance. You can also consider surfacing, as battery life is critical in winning long engagements with subs. 

Most times they will not die from a single round of attacks, so as your torpedoes are reloading, prepare another attack. Always keep in mind when THEY might have launched torpedoes at you as well. For instance, if they are facing slightly to your left, you can simply go right to increase the odds of their torps missing. A good amount of depth separation against an enemy sub between attacks is about 20-25 meters, but this can increase with distance. 

Fighting subs is when you are most vulnerable to DDs, so always keep an eye on your minimap for them. 

 

 

 

Destroyers Interacting With Subs

 

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In a perfect world, DDs would have a lot of control when it comes to hunting you. Unfortunately, this is not that world. The only time DDs are vulnerable to Subs is when they approach them, and this is exactly what a Sub captain wants. 

If a DD is approaching you to depth charge you, simply continue sitting at 5.9 and keep the DD pinged with your bow or stern facing directly at the DD. If it's shooting you, just quickly dive and surface, re-apply ping. Once the DD is within 2km, this is your FIRST chance to kill it. The reaction time for the DD player to dodge your torpedoes is extremely small, so launch them together with ping applied. With some practice you will have a pretty good success rate at outright killing them then and there. Right about as you fire your torpedoes, try to maneuver around the DD so it doesn't ram and keep your ping applied. 

Should the DD survive for any reason, DO NOT DIVE. Remain at 5.9 BECAUSE THIS MAKES YOU IMMUNE TO DEPTH CHARGES. If he will ram you and you really want to avoid it, you can dive under him and surface immediately. Whatever charges hurt your sub will not kill you, but it's best to just go around the DD if possible. Yes, I understand that guns can hurt you when you are at 5.9, but the depth charges will hurt you more. In this situation, the best the DD can hope for is to ram you. If you were successful at maneuvering around or diving under it, you have your second chance to kill them with your other set of torps. Should you also miss that set, then just create distance between you and the DD. If you have allies, hopefully they can harass it away or something. 

If you are the DD in this situation, NEVER approach a DD straight on unless they are super deep in the water. If they are near the surface, ITS A TRAP. Against a fully aware sub using this strategy, the best approach for the DD is to come in perpendicular to the sub and NEVER be closer than 1km while near it so it can't ram you. Unfortunately, the DD can just use its maximum depth consumable and waste your time if it sees you doing this, and you still won’t kill a healthy submarine. The best you can do is space your depth charge drops out so the sub will have to suffer the DoT damage from any hits. If it's sitting at 5.9, shoot it whenever you can. 

Subs and DDs head on engagement    Depth Charges not hurting while surfaced

 

 

Cruisers With Charges Interacting With Subs

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About the same as DDs if you have depth charges. You're actually worse off in this engagement since your maneuverability is not like a DDs, but you can potentially survive a straight on charge with full HP since the sub won’t be able to ping your stern for citadel hits. Otherwise, approach the same way I said before as a DD. 

If you have an allied DD going for a sub, you could keep shooting at the sub to keep it underwater even if it is already. Its much harder for the Sub to head on a DD if it's underwater. Just be careful of friendly fire.

 

 

Cruisers, Battleships and Carriers Interacting With Subs

 

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You don't. At all. 

 

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I suppose if you really want some hope, Heavy cruisers can spot subs with radar for their own subs to ping and snipe, and hydro can help in this regard too. If you read what I said earlier about sub torpedoes being unable to converge on a target, the best way to mitigate sub torps is like any other, bow or stern facing them. You should only be struck by half the torpedoes and you'll make it awkward for the sub to ping both your sections. 

BBs are a juicy target for subs like Cachalot. Be aware of their torpedo ranges and make sure to stay near ships that can deal with subs for you. For both large cruisers and BBs, you can shoot at subs if they are underwater to keep them there, to help your approaching DDs.

Carriers are about the same as BBs. You CAN spot them, even underwater, although the ranges are short. if they want to come kill you, you literally have no tools to stop them. They can dolphin dive at 5.9 for infinite battery and you can't hurt them even if you line up an attack run, blind, perfectly. 

 

 

 

 

  

Mechanics that should be added for this class to function better.

 

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So, if you've read everything up until now you should have a pretty solid picture of invincible submarines. Here are a few things WG should add or change to make this class behave more appropriately with the other classes. 

1. Battery Recharge Delay. When Submarines surface, there should be about a 5-10 second delay before the battery starts recharging as it does now. This will prevent subs from dolphin diving in hostile territory for infinite battery because players can't react to the appearing submarine on their screen fast enough to lock on and fire before it just dives again. 

2. Depth Charge Mortars. Yes, I’m aware these are non-historical. All Destroyers should be equipped with frontal depth charge launchers that can fire charges at ~4-6km away at limited angles from the front of the DD. This will put more threat on subs spotting ships at the surface since they can be hit with charges at distance. Obviously not so many charges that they kill the sub in 1-2 salvos, but damaging enough to challenge their superiority. You can also have dispersion to these launched charges be pretty poor at the max ranges so they aren’t devastating. 

3. Depth Charges hurt at any level. Depth charges should damage subs at surface level. You can reduce the damage the same way you would if they were at max depth, but they should still take some damage. It is ridiculous that they are immune, and frustrating for the attacking ship. 

4. Depth Charges hurt your own ship if you are near them when they explode. Since there are a lot of nerfs I would add to subs coming up, Ships shouldn't be able to just park on top of them. This way DCs would have to be dropped in passes above the DD, giving some opportunity to the sub to avoid damage and maneuver away.

5. Ping Aert. The complete removal of ships being alerted if they are pinged was a mistake. Instead, the player should be alerted that they are pinged IF they have been pinged twice while a ping is already active on them. This will make subs more reserved with their pings, especially against battleships, which can open up opportunities of avoidance if they are ping spammed, or natural missing for subs since they might not be able to maintain homing the entire way.

6. Sonobouy. Carriers should have a limited consumable added to their squadrons that they can drop in the water. It should act as a SUB ONLY hydro, to give carriers some role in anti-sub operations. OR.... 

7. Plane Launched Depth Charges. To give them some offense to subs attacking not only them, but anywhere on the field. It would make the most sense if this worked exactly like it does for DDs, where the squadron just drops them in during an attack run. I don’t think it should be a separate squadron, you could instead use the torpedo squad. Have them start up an attack run and only allow them to use the consumable during that. Or you could give them both the sub hydro charge and depth charges, which is probably the best course of action. 

8. Different shell calibers hurt subs at deeper depths. Mostly this is for Battleships, but it could help cruisers too. Basically, DDs still would only be able to hurt subs on the surface, 5.9. Higher caliber shells could affect them at deeper levels like 7-8 meters, with battleship size guns having an affect between 8-12 meters. Just something for BBs to be able to use against Subs in some capacity really. 

9. Subs take longer to cap. Since they are so stealthy and safe from damage around the edge of a cap, it should take longer for them to capture a point so the enemy team has more time to react. Not a lot more time, maybe 20% longer or something.

10. Concealment/spotting against enemy Subs. All ships should receive a 2km concealment buff against submarine vision if they are underwater. For example, a 6km concealment DD could only be spotted by an underwater sub 4km away. Subs should also lose all vision on enemy ships if they are at their consumable crush depth, 55-80m. This will help with counterplay against subs.

11. DD extended torpedo ranges. With their new position in team composition being mid-line, I think it would be appropriate to give low torp range DDs a 1-2km torpedo range buff. This would help players feel more comfortable and willing to take a step back and allow subs to fill the role they vacated.

12. Remove battery recharging underwater. Subs should not be allowed the ability to remain underwater forever when more than half the ships in the game can only fight them when they are surfaced.

13. Add Speed Debuffs to Subs Out of Battery. This, coupled with removing battery recharging underwater AND a delay to recharging battery when surfacing will provide necessary restrictions to sub positioning amongst your own team. The speed debuff doesn't even need to be significant. Forced 3/4 speed would be enough to make overextended subs without battery very vulnerable.

14. Increase Match Limit From 12 to 15 per side.  If subs are taking up part of the 12 slots, games will seem emptier than they really are. With the addition of a class, you must increase space to accommodate that class.

This is all I could think of. If anyone leaves a comment below with an idea, I will add it to this section of the post with credit to the poster. 

Having watched Flamu's video, I will add a couple points he had here since they are good. Any ideas previously that sort of match with his is coincidence. I watched his video after I wrote them, I did not steal ideas.

15. Giving Aim Lead to Subs Underwater. Instead of having a 'this is the center of the subs location' marker when it's underwater and you are aiming at it, you should instead have a bow and stern marker so you can better judge it's position and speed relative to you.

16. DD Job overload. While I think Subs will help DDs have less worry over caps and front line duties, they are still being given too much work compared to other classes. If you can't reduce that workload, you should increase the reward for it.

 

 

 

General thoughts 

 

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In their current iteration, I think subs are vastly overpowered and inappropriate for the game. If at least some changes that I mentioned (like charges hurting on all levels and giving all classes some kind of response to a sub) then I actually think they could have a role in combat. They actually take a lot of stress off of DDs, an extremely stressed class, which is good. You might have to address some issues of torpedo ranges for DDs based on their new position on the water, but overall, this will benefit DDs immensely. 

Cruisers are probably the most indifferent class to this addition. They can be hurt by subs, but they already come with plenty of countermeasures that can balance it out with some tweaking. 

Battleships and Carriers need some real addressing when it comes to fighting subs. Especially BBs, as they are becoming quite a powercreeped class as it is. 

I know a lot of people, my clan included, have a great distaste already for subs. Some of it is because they are poorly countered right now, and some of it is CV rework flashbacks. Personally, I approached it the same way I did CV rework, I am open to it. There is much more potential with subs than the rework, and they are pretty fun to play when you are in the enemy fleet wreaking havoc. I enjoyed every bit of subs that I played, no matter what I was targeting. I just hope things change for the other classes, because they are in great need of help against them. 

 

 

You ignored a major bias benefit the soviet sub has: Crazy fast dive plane speed.

We tested this during the 2nd and 3rd runs of the test server. German sub has the fastest dive speed... but if both the soviet and german sub slam the dive key at the same time, the soviet sub will reach 50m before the german sub does and with a very comfortable gap. Why? Because its already 20m deep before the german sub even starts to drop in depth. It gets a huge head start since its dive planes just drop to max dive rate while the german sub gradually gains dive rate until finally at full planes down, its faster dive speed kicks in. 

This has a major implication for the soviet subs...and its no surprise given the always present bias. Soviet subs are not only being given the 2nd best longest range, they are given the 2nd best damage, the 3rd best turn rate (which is really irrelevant for a sub..so, as usual, soviet ships get a penalty that doesn't matter), the 2nd best reload speed, the 2nd highest health pool that becomes twice as good as the BEST health pool in the game due to the HEAL ... and the best homing torp capability. 

That translates directly into a sub that is the best at killing surface ships, has the highest survivability and its INSANELY hard to sink with other subs because it LITERALLY (and this was seen nonstop in test) dodge torps from 3 other subs firing at it from different directions at ranges less than 4km all because it can VERY quickly dive and climb at its max speed, thus allowing the sub hull to completely displace out of the way of the torpedo.

Its poor turn rate is irrelevant because no sub in the game can 'turn into' a surface ship while underwater. Aka wont turn 90 degrees and point nose at a ship thats less than 5km from it. All subs have HORRIBLE turn rates compared to surface ships. Sub vs sub the turn rate is irrelevant if you can dive and climb so fast you can effortlessly dodge torps..until your nose comes around. 

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32 minutes ago, Dareios said:

snipsnap

Sure, i'm not saying they're all good or iron clad. Mostly they are rough concepts to build actual good things from, and it would definitely not work if everything was implemented. It would be overwhelming. My highest hopes are provoking some discussion amongst some wargaming developer meeting.

28 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Depth Management: on paper having a seamless depth transition looks nice and more fluid but we have the 6 mts wall thing. I think in this case a step back would be better and having fixed depth levels with times to transition between them would be fix some of the more critical issues.  Lets say surface, periscope, shallow, medium and max depths. I would say add a targeting reticule for surface and periscope and limit the firing of conventional torps to those depths. Transitions between depths could be adjusted as necesary but lets say for example you need 5 secs to go from surface to periscope, now you'll need to considering the delay when manouvering under fire.  Depth levels can be managed by a throttle like the engine. Speed and batery consumption should be related to depth. The more depth, the slower and the more battery you burn.

Underwater engagements: I would replace the hability of firing "conventional" torps while submerged by a consumable "acoustic" torp that works similar to the current ones but at limited quantities and maybe with better homing performance, if a "solution" is fixed on the target by pings/hydro. What I mean is engaging while underwater should be a last resort defensive option, standard offensive operations should be conducted at surface/periscope depths.

Underwater communication: there should not be communication between a submerged sub and its team, no relaying of info nor spotting while the sub in below periscope level. If you ask me I would even freeze minimap to last know positions. Going deep should be for defense/evade, not a viable operational doctrine.

I could see some issue with sub vs sub maneuverability if depth changing was fixed levels. I don't think impacting the speed at which surfacing is done would help either, because it would cause issues with dodging. Imposing armament, ping and battery recharge delays would do enough to penalize the player offensively, but not defensively.

This one sounds like it would cripple the sub v sub arena. What might work better is make homing torpedoes only turn left or right once they reach the surface if a surface target is pinged. This would impose the same kind of penalties as you suggest. That being said, very rarely do subs need to bother with attacking a surface target from deep underwater (in current build) so I don't see it affecting the player much.

I think the crush depth vision penalty is enough here, but I could see a 30-55m minimap detection only for the ships a sub can spot.

37 minutes ago, CO_Valle said:

MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) it could maybe implemented as a captain skill to help with the detection of submarines. It could also be used instead or complementing your sonobouy proposal.

I neglected to suggest anything captain skill related since that would probably revolve around a whole skill tree change, but it will be interesting to see what they may add. Something like this as an optional skill would be good for BBs, or ships in general.

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4 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

You ignored a major bias benefit the soviet sub has: Crazy fast dive plane speed.

We tested this during the 2nd and 3rd runs of the test server. German sub has the fastest dive speed... but if both the soviet and german sub slam the dive key at the same time, the soviet sub will reach 50m before the german sub does and with a very comfortable gap. Why? Because its already 20m deep before the german sub even starts to drop in depth. It gets a huge head start since its dive planes just drop to max dive rate while the german sub gradually gains dive rate until finally at full planes down, its faster dive speed kicks in. 

This has a major implication for the soviet subs...and its no surprise given the always present bias. Soviet subs are not only being given the 2nd best longest range, they are given the 2nd best damage, the 3rd best turn rate (which is really irrelevant for a sub..so, as usual, soviet ships get a penalty that doesn't matter), the 2nd best reload speed, the 2nd highest health pool that becomes twice as good as the BEST health pool in the game due to the HEAL ... and the best homing torp capability. 

That translates directly into a sub that is the best at killing surface ships, has the highest survivability and its INSANELY hard to sink with other subs because it LITERALLY (and this was seen nonstop in test) dodge torps from 3 other subs firing at it from different directions at ranges less than 4km all because it can VERY quickly dive and climb at its max speed, thus allowing the sub hull to completely displace out of the way of the torpedo.

Its poor turn rate is irrelevant because no sub in the game can 'turn into' a surface ship while underwater. Aka wont turn 90 degrees and point nose at a ship thats less than 5km from it. All subs have HORRIBLE turn rates compared to surface ships. Sub vs sub the turn rate is irrelevant if you can dive and climb so fast you can effortlessly dodge torps..until your nose comes around. 

First, don't comment the whole OP. It's clutter, just snip it if you want to direct reply.

Second, what are you even talking about. Of course each sub will have things about it that will be better than the others, and then proceed to mention a bunch of things that it's second best in or worse. Do you even know what bias would look like? Why don't we talk about U-69 hydro and general vision control along with torp strength, or cachalot long range with accurate pings and HP? I'm sure they're second best or worse in a lot of other categories, so it must be german and american bias.

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42 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

 

I could see some issue with sub vs sub maneuverability if depth changing was fixed levels. I don't think impacting the speed at which surfacing is done would help either, because it would cause issues with dodging. Imposing armament, ping and battery recharge delays would do enough to penalize the player offensively, but not defensively.

This one sounds like it would cripple the sub v sub arena. What might work better is make homing torpedoes only turn left or right once they reach the surface if a surface target is pinged. This would impose the same kind of penalties as you suggest. That being said, very rarely do subs need to bother with attacking a surface target from deep underwater (in current build) so I don't see it affecting the player much.

I think the crush depth vision penalty is enough here, but I could see a 30-55m minimap detection only for the ships a sub can spot.

The problem If you go with seamless depth management is you'll need to fix an arbitrary limit between surface and submersed and transition between them  would be almost instantly as it is now. I understand your point with sub vs sub interaction, maybe a compromise solution with surface, periscope and submersed levels, keeping current maneuverability scheme while in submersed depth? . Other than that is setting delay timers to depth planes and fixed interval between dives (no "dolphining").

I'm still not sold on the sub vs sub thing for the given time frame of the game (call me silly, it breaks my suspention of disbelief), tho my main issue is on how easy it is now to engage surface ships while submerged. Making it imposible for the sub to engage surface ships without risking itself by being surfaced or at periscope level is a workaround the inhability of non ASW units to engage subs. Meaning, to launch a torp attack you must expose yourself to surface gun retaliation.

 

Edited by ArIskandir

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i cant figure them out so not likely to keep playing them, from what little game play i had was boring and virtually useless. I could not figure the ping thing out or how the homing torps work. it was only 3 attempts but very disappointing attempts to say.

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Excellent write-up Pulicat, I remember your posts from the CV rework as well and they were all well thought out and reasonable. I have not gotten a chance to play submarines yet, but I have been trying to get in at least my five battles per day. Playing my Vasteras has been a rather eye-opening experience and I've had to shift my play style significantly. I've always disliked how much spotting power a CV has (neither here nor there at this point), so the addition of another ship class that provides superior spotting designed to beat destroyer concealment is an eyebrow raiser. There have been quite a few matches when I do my destroyer thing, only to be stymied in getting to a desired position because I am spotted by an enemy submarine I cannot spot that has support in range to fire at me. The end result is that I has to play even more passively than I would in a Random Battle, toss in an aircraft carrier and suddenly I'm worried about being spotted on multiple planes that I can only control by remaining tethered to the fleet. I'll be honest, I didn't much care for that. 

I've been around long enough to remember the game without CV's, without radar, without hydro, etc., so maybe there is some nostalgia in looking back to a... simpler time? I don't know. At any rate, the game changes and as a player, you have to adapt or move on. While I don't care for the additional spotting hazard and the added weight to my shoulders when I play a destroyer, I will admit that the cautious play in Submarine Battles is forcing me to make better decisions as a player and I'm surviving longer in a destroyer which produces better games (and results). I felt you made a lot of good points about spotting and concealment in general, but it was the notion that perhaps some of my roles in a destroyer can be accomplished by a submarine that struck home, and I readily admit I had not thought about letting that occur but my shift in game-play was doing exactly that, letting the submarines be the screening force. I still hope Wargaming is open to making some changes, but it seems as if they want every ship class to fit their mold when it comes to spotting and concealment.

There are still quite a few balance issues to chew through and I would be remiss to not point out how well Wargaming is handling the (inevitable) inclusion of submarines. Everything from the separate mode to the incentive to queue to the staggered release has been superb. It seems that the lessons from the CV rework may have struck a nerve with WG and they are handling submarines far better. The CV rework was exhausting, the addition of submarines has been intriguing, if nothing else. 

I guess the days of a destroyer lone-wolfing an entire flank successfully are about to truly be gone. Perhaps it's for the best, but damn I'll miss 'em. 

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33 minutes ago, Brohk said:

I've been around long enough to remember the game without CV's,

wait what?

as in before the game existed or had any ships at all in it?

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They still haven't changed pinging to be something better. If they keep pinging the way it is the skill ceiling is going to be so high everyone is going to avoid playing submarines all together. Everyone on PTS pointed out that pinging in its current form is awful and they keep it. I made a long post about it on PTS and I'm not going to repeat myself here but if they keep it this way chances of me playing a submarine have dropped to zero and won't be touched.

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10 minutes ago, Dareios said:

wait what?

as in before the game existed or had any ships at all in it?

there was a point in time in alpha that cvs weren't available i think. they were also pretty scarce in the mid years of wows lifespan.

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7 minutes ago, Z3r0Fear said:

They still haven't changed pinging to be something better. If they keep pinging the way it is the skill ceiling is going to be so high everyone is going to avoid playing submarines all together. Everyone on PTS pointed out that pinging in its current form is awful and they keep it. I made a long post about it on PTS and I'm not going to repeat myself here but if they keep it this way chances of me playing a submarine have dropped to zero and won't be touched.

Sorry bro, I don't get it. Point and click is too difficult? I was under the impression it was something so terribly dumb it would be the other way. I hope you are right and most people avoid subs as they are now, they surely need more work, but I wouldn't say it is by pinging being too difficult... What's next 360° all around ping so it becomes easier?

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1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

Sorry bro, I don't get it. Point and click is too difficult? I was under the impression it was something so terribly dumb it would be the other way. I hope you are right and most people avoid subs as they are now, they surely need more work, but I wouldn't say it is by pinging being too difficult... What's next 360° all around ping so it becomes easier?

I don't have the greatest sense of range judgment reason my accuracy is incredibly low unless I'm close to the enemy. It's the reason I favour playing fast firing ships over slow ones. Probably didn't explain myself properly. Pointing and clicking is easy at close range but longer ranges I can't hit a thing worth a damn.

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1 minute ago, Z3r0Fear said:

I don't have the greatest sense of range judgment reason my accuracy is incredibly low unless I'm close to the enemy. It's the reason I favour playing fast firing ships over slow ones. Probably didn't explain myself properly. Pointing and clicking is easy at close range but longer ranges I can't hit a thing worth a damn.

Are you using the zoom?. I find usually only takes one ranging ping to get the lead on the target if it isn't wiggling much. Maybe is just practice, I've always used static old Mk 1 reticule for aiming in this game.

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14 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Are you using the zoom?. I find usually only takes one ranging ping to get the lead on the target if it isn't wiggling much. Maybe is just practice, I've always used static old Mk 1 reticule for aiming in this game.

The problem with submarines is they don't have an auto-track like surface ships so most of the time I'm pinging about 3 to 4 times before I hit the mark that's my problem and by then I've given myself away to every ASW in the area that I end up having to run away. It just leads to a lot of frustration then I really want to have for when I'm gaming.

Edited by Z3r0Fear

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