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What I have learned from submarines with the update 9.4

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What I have learned from submarines

SS vs DD or CL
At the moment a submarine can defeat a destroyer or light cruisers when they are close, how? you emerge to avoid damage from explosive charges and when you pass in front of it, you launch the torpedoes without sounding, advice you do not emerge 100%.
I really like that since you know you can defend yourself from destroyers.

I like that, since there is the possibility of beating these types of ships. like a battleship against a destroyer where those possibilities also exist

SS vs BB
I have used fast and slow battleships with the difference that the rapids can dodge the torpedoes with sonar or escape from them since the submarines are slower.
Now if a battleship is very close to the submarines, the torpedoes may fail, but the submarine can emerge and launch torpedoes without sounding, although it will still be destroyed when trying to bring the battleship closer.
At the moment I have not found how a battleship defeats a submarine.

SS vs CA
Here the heavy cruisers just on the side would manage to hit them with the torpedoes although if you get close and emerge to use the torpedoes without the sonar but in the same way they could hit you with their torpedoes, that would be a possibility.

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While WoWs isn't terribly realistic to begin with, having subs engage DD's by surfacimg in front of them and shooting torps at point-blank range is gamey, and too absurd even for the absurdity that is WoWs (to cite obvious examples, it's a game where the captain has to aim the guns, and the best destroyer-killers are CV's--which had a lot of trouble hitting DD's historically).

The last time a sub did it to me, he was actually offended that the torp I ate damaged but didn't kill my DD (he did die, to the gunfire of another nearby ship).  At very least, sub torps should have an arming distance.  That would kill off this absurdly ahistorical tactic, since, while surfacing would still provide temporary protection against depth charges, the sub couldn't hurt the DD close up, and being at or close to the surface would only make it vulnerable to gunfire.

 

Historically, yeah, subs were pretty helpless against DD's: they couldn't beat them in a gun battle (they could beat some smaller ships, including some subchasers), and the DD's were too agile for most torp attacks to work--a charging DD was a lot easier to aim at, but "down-the-throat" shots at the narrow bow of a small ship usually missed their mark. I'm not sure subs really have to be effective vs. DD's for game purposes, since, in this rock-papers-scissors game, subs can hurt CA's and BB's, which can't hurt them back, and it might be better to achieve balance by reducing DDs' ability to locate subs so exactly. However, if for some reason it's absolutely necessary that subs have to be effective against DD's, can't there be a better way to do that than through a tactic that's as counterintuitive as it is hard to believe?

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3 hours ago, MTKnife said:

The last time a sub did it to me, he was actually offended that the torp I ate damaged but didn't kill my DD (he did die, to the gunfire of another nearby ship).  At very least, sub torps should have an arming distance.  That would kill off this absurdly ahistorical tactic, since, while surfacing would still provide temporary protection against depth charges, the sub couldn't hurt the DD close up, and being at or close to the surface would only make it vulnerable to gunfire.

I think that sub balance is pretty close to right as it is now, at the very least it's MUCH closer to balanced than CVs were in 0.8.0, but I wouldn't object to subs getting an arming distance like other ship classes. Subs *should* have a way to deal with destroyers, one that requires some skill to use of course but not so much that only the best of the best can pull it off consistently, however popping up close enough that you can touch the sub's bow from the destroyer and dumping torpedoes into the unsuspecting lolibote is indeed a bit much.

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10 hours ago, MTKnife said:

having subs engage DD's by surfacimg in front of them and shooting torps at point-blank range is gamey, and too absurd even for the absurdity that is WoWs (to cite obvious examples, it's a game where the captain has to aim the guns, and the best destroyer-killers are CV's--which had a lot of trouble hitting DD's historically).

The last time a sub did it to me, he was actually offended that the torp I ate damaged but didn't kill my DD (he did die, to the gunfire of another nearby ship).

At the moment its the only way for subs to deal with dd‘s. And it is not an easy maneuver. You have to time it very well and if you miss you are in trouble. I like the way it is at the moment. This is an arcade game, not a historic simulation. Things like that make the game fun to play. And as you mentioned in your example, your team was able to kill the sub and you survived the attack. If you get the chance to play subs, try to kill destroyers and you will see that it is not that easy. I expect a lot of players are having trouble to pull this off.

10 hours ago, MTKnife said:

subs can hurt CA's and BB's, which can't hurt them back

Of course CA’s and BB‘s can hurt Subs. I‘killed some subs with bombers. Subs go down with one or two hits.

As a sub you are so slow under wather, a BB and CA can outrun you. To torp a BB or CA you have to get close. You have to surface to effectively move around the map and even then you are very slow. If you get noticed, they can react and ruin your attack by outmaneuvering you.

6 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I think that sub balance is pretty close to right as it is now

I agree. Well some tweeks and changes are probably still necessary. I hope this ship class makes it into the game.

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14 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I think that sub balance is pretty close to right as it is now, at the very least it's MUCH closer to balanced than CVs were in 0.8.0, but I wouldn't object to subs getting an arming distance like other ship classes. Subs *should* have a way to deal with destroyers, one that requires some skill to use of course but not so much that only the best of the best can pull it off consistently, however popping up close enough that you can touch the sub's bow from the destroyer and dumping torpedoes into the unsuspecting lolibote is indeed a bit much.

Historically, subs did take the down-the-throat torpedo shot when they could. It might not have worked most of the time, but it was a real threat. Because of the need for torpedoes to arm--combined with the high speed of an onrushing DD--IIRC the minimum effective range was about 1,000 yards (about 1km), or a little under. If nothing else, the incoming torps could cause a destroyer to swerve, which might well ruin a depth charge attack.

 

As I implied above, in the real world, the best defense subs had against destroyers was that they were hard to find--knowing they were there was one thing, but getting an exact position was hard, especially as a destroyer passed overhead and the sub was no longer in its sonar cone. Indeed, it was so hard to pin a sub down accurately that I recall reading that one DD wasn't typically a big threat,but  two or three cooperating was lethal, since they could come at the sub from different directions, and one could keep it fixed on sonar while another attacked.

 

From a game standpoint, subs really don't need the ability to kill destroyers consistently--if they could do a better job of avoiding DD's passively, that could work just as well.  And no, I don't think "it's just a video game" is an excuse just to slap any arbitrary thing into the platform: while the demands of a video game certainly will cause serious divergence from reality, they don't justify something that's so wildly unrealistic as to be counterintuitive (meaning players have to be taught it), when there are alternative mechanisms that are more realistic and intuitive and just as effective at creating balance.

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17 hours ago, MTKnife said:

As I implied above, in the real world, the best defense subs had against destroyers was that they were hard to find--knowing they were there was one thing, but getting an exact position was hard, especially as a destroyer passed overhead and the sub was no longer in its sonar cone. Indeed, it was so hard to pin a sub down accurately that I recall reading that one DD wasn't typically a big threat,but  two or three cooperating was lethal, since they could come at the sub from different directions, and one could keep it fixed on sonar while another attacked.

 

From a game standpoint, subs really don't need the ability to kill destroyers consistently--if they could do a better job of avoiding DD's passively, that could work just as well.  And no, I don't think "it's just a video game" is an excuse just to slap any arbitrary thing into the platform: while the demands of a video game certainly will cause serious divergence from reality, they don't justify something that's so wildly unrealistic as to be counterintuitive (meaning players have to be taught it), when there are alternative mechanisms that are more realistic and intuitive and just as effective at creating balance.

I don‘t agree with you in several points. Ships in this game turn and accelerate much faster than in the real world. in order to keep up with that you have to make the weapons react faster. In a DD vs Sub duel the DD clearly has the upper hand which is totally ok, but paying no attention to the Sub can get your DD killed wich is totally ok too. The sub needs a way to bite back in order to make the duel interesting. They should under no circumstances eliminate all the risk involved in attacking a Sub with a DD. At the moment those Sub vs DD duels are fun.

In terms of balance they would have to weaken the effectiveness of ASW and make the sub less visible. At the moment a single DD can hunt a sub very effectively and with little skill involved. They can easily spot them especially with hydroacustic. Even with a deep dive you loose about half the hull of your sub in a depthcharge attack and the DD and its bombs can be quite far away from you.

This is an action game not a simulation. There is not much action if the subs are just hiding. It would also be boring for players who play that class. It would also be boring if, like you mentioned, 3 DD‘s are needed to hunt a single sub. It would drag the game out and is not realistic in the World of Warships setting of 20min gameplay. That can‘t be the intention. In a session of 20min gameplay you need the subs right in the action, and you get that by giving them a chance in a fight close to the surface.

Edited by keldornor

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On 5/31/2020 at 6:06 PM, MTKnife said:

While WoWs isn't terribly realistic to begin with, having subs engage DD's by surfacimg in front of them and shooting torps at point-blank range is gamey, and too absurd even for the absurdity that is WoWs (to cite obvious examples, it's a game where the captain has to aim the guns, and the best destroyer-killers are CV's--which had a lot of trouble hitting DD's historically).

The last time a sub did it to me, he was actually offended that the torp I ate damaged but didn't kill my DD (he did die, to the gunfire of another nearby ship).  At very least, sub torps should have an arming distance.  That would kill off this absurdly ahistorical tactic, since, while surfacing would still provide temporary protection against depth charges, the sub couldn't hurt the DD close up, and being at or close to the surface would only make it vulnerable to gunfire.

 

Historically, yeah, subs were pretty helpless against DD's: they couldn't beat them in a gun battle (they could beat some smaller ships, including some subchasers), and the DD's were too agile for most torp attacks to work--a charging DD was a lot easier to aim at, but "down-the-throat" shots at the narrow bow of a small ship usually missed their mark. I'm not sure subs really have to be effective vs. DD's for game purposes, since, in this rock-papers-scissors game, subs can hurt CA's and BB's, which can't hurt them back, and it might be better to achieve balance by reducing DDs' ability to locate subs so exactly. However, if for some reason it's absolutely necessary that subs have to be effective against DD's, can't there be a better way to do that than through a tactic that's as counterintuitive as it is hard to believe?

Sub torps already have an arming distance of 250m. 
 

and as for “a historic”. History already records that a submarine was almost impossible to detect visually outside of 1km. History already records that torpedoes had zero homing ability until 1943 and even then it was only passive. Active homing wasn’t invented till much much later than any ship currently in the game was even blue printed. History already records that early war torpedoes has a speed of nearly 60kts (in some cases faster) and only a max range of 4ish km. (That’s over 110km an hour for reference)
 

yet we have active homing

 

yet we have spotting distances of 4km plus while surfaced and nearly 3km while submerged above 20m. 

yet we have torpedoes that are slower than almost all others in the game...

being able to shotgun ships at 500m is no more obsurd than overpenns on cruisers by massive calibers doing little to nothing, CVs being able to build their own planes. And battleships being able to have video based aiming from a spotter plane that barely had a radio. 
 

history died a long long time ago. 

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On 6/2/2020 at 7:05 AM, keldornor said:

I don‘t agree with you in several points. Ships in this game turn and accelerate much faster than in the real world. in order to keep up with that you have to make the weapons react faster. In a DD vs Sub duel the DD clearly has the upper hand which is totally ok, but paying no attention to the Sub can get your DD killed wich is totally ok too. The sub needs a way to bite back in order to make the duel interesting. They should under no circumstances eliminate all the risk involved in attacking a Sub with a DD. At the moment those Sub vs DD duels are fun.

In terms of balance they would have to weaken the effectiveness of ASW and make the sub less visible. At the moment a single DD can hunt a sub very effectively and with little skill involved. They can easily spot them especially with hydroacustic. Even with a deep dive you loose about half the hull of your sub in a depthcharge attack and the DD and its bombs can be quite far away from you.

This is an action game not a simulation. There is not much action if the subs are just hiding. It would also be boring for players who play that class. It would also be boring if, like you mentioned, 3 DD‘s are needed to hunt a single sub. It would drag the game out and is not realistic in the World of Warships setting of 20min gameplay. That can‘t be the intention. In a session of 20min gameplay you need the subs right in the action, and you get that by giving them a chance in a fight close to the surface.

I don't see how giving subs a chance to fight back leads inevitably to settings things up so that the most effective way to fight back is to do something that's utterly counterintuitive.

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Like I said, I don't expect realism--but I have my limits, and this particular exploit passes them.

 

Since my earlier posts, I've finally got the chance to play the subs myself...and man, I hated the experience.  In particular, the ping mechanic is driving me nuts:  I don't have a sight like I do for gunfire, and I don't have the GUI equivalent of a torpedo data computer (TDC).  I don't know how much to lead the target by; I don't even know how fast pings travel, or the speed differences between fast and slow pings, and for that matter I have no idea how wide fast and slow pings are.  It's entirely too twitchy, and I just don't think it fits with the rest of the game, at least not as currently implemented.

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DDs are a dead class of ship in the game if submarines are fully introduced into Random play.  Submarine players will focus on spotting DDs early, and their team will kill them.  After DDs are dead, submarines will freely sail the map capping and torping what's left.  The game will be even more of a joke than it's already become.

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