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pinnacle91

Sub vs BB

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So I had a submarine battle today in a battleship. All my DDs died, all I had was a CV. I was able to evade the sub because dunkerque is twice as fast as a sub. Dodge 2 sets of torpedoes. Get on the cap circle. Turn around, rush the sub, dodge more torps, force him to surface, then shoot him to death. I don't understand why people are being so overdramatic about sub vs BB in its current state. 

https://replayswows.com/replay/93951#stats

link to the replay if anyone is interested.

Edited by pinnacle91
link to video added.
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32 minutes ago, pinnacle91 said:

So I had a submarine battle today in a battleship. All my DDs died, all I had was a CV. I was able to evade the sub because dunkerque is twice as fast as a sub. Dodge 2 sets of torpedoes. Get on the cap circle. Turn around, rush the sub, dodge more torps, force him to surface, then shoot him to death. I don't understand why people are being so overdramatic about sub vs BB in its current state. 

https://replayswows.com/replay/93951#stats

link to the replay if anyone is interested.

How did you force the sub to surface? As long as they stay below susceptible to gunfire depth they are safe as houses and if they are any good they can do the shotgun maneuver or what I think is a better description the porpoise maneuver and be save before your secondaries can lock on or for you to use your mains. It sounds more like the sub player screwed up. A few successes do not disprove the issue of not having any counters to a submerged sub.

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I understand your point and you're right about the shotgunning. I think subs should be slower to change their depth. But the fact that their speed is so heavily decreased while submerged, to me, that is their balancer. Even when they surface they are still slow. Their torpedo range is also pretty limited. Although I dont like playing like a chicken in a BB, as long as I'm going full speed and angling away from the sub they cant get me. Also to answer your question about how I forced him to surface, I was on his cap circle and he has to surface to stop the cap.

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30 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

How did you force the sub to surface? As long as they stay below susceptible to gunfire depth they are safe as houses and if they are any good they can do the shotgun maneuver or what I think is a better description the porpoise maneuver and be save before your secondaries can lock on or for you to use your mains. It sounds more like the sub player screwed up. A few successes do not disprove the issue of not having any counters to a submerged sub.

Fortunately the majority of sub players are (& will always be) more like the person he faced as opposed to the few (in comparison to how many now have access to them) that have all the experience from all of the test servers.

The issue you mention is real (& in any competitive mode will always be an issue if not addressed) when facing an experienced player but most players will probably end up screwing up in their subs instead of being a real threat so his example will probably end up being more the norm than the exception in random battles...sadly.

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3 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Fortunately the majority of sub players are (& will always be) more like the person he faced as opposed to the few (in comparison to how many now have access to them) that have all the experience from all of the test servers.

The issue you mention is real (& in any competitive mode will always be an issue if not addressed) when facing an experienced player but most players will probably end up screwing up in their subs instead of being a real threat so his example will probably end up being more the norm than the exception in random battles...sadly.

Very true but the good sub players will make the game hell for everyone else just has they do with any other ship.

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42 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

How did you force the sub to surface?

 

3 minutes ago, pinnacle91 said:

I was on his cap circle and he has to surface to stop the cap.

Good answer... didn't see that 1 coming (despite you averting to it in your OP).

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Played my Arizona today.  Zapped their Cruisers.  Then zapped their BB.  Then ran like hell with a sub on my tail, toward three light friendly cruisers (headed my way)..no more sub.

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As a BB/CA I have had some success rushing towards the sub, evading its torps to the point where it doesn't matter if they ping me, so they have to get away or risking surfacing to shoot me, but we if you can get mostly on top of them, and given their submerged speed and turning radius (as bad as yours or worse in a BB) I've been able to cancel them out (and sometimes hilariously ramming them).

The issue comes if there are two subs or if the sub has some form of surface support, but hen I could also get support from teammates.

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16 minutes ago, pinnacle91 said:

I was on his cap circle and he has to surface to stop the cap.

I haven't played subs and this is a serious question.

Could he have just fired torpedo's at you to reset the cap?

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Yes surfacing and torping me would've reset the cap in this scenario. But that still gave me a window multiple seconds long where I had the ability to damage him with my shells. If you watch the replay I actually was able to land one or two shells out of a salvo of 8, cause a fire, and damage half of his total HP with my main gun. I think if BB players intend to survive against submarines they're going to have to more often than not, play the cap circles to make subs either surface, or lose the game.

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12 minutes ago, HeadSplit120 said:

I haven't played subs and this is a serious question.

Could he have just fired torpedo's at you to reset the cap?

 

4 minutes ago, pinnacle91 said:

Yes surfacing and torping me would've reset the cap in this scenario. But that still gave me a window multiple seconds long where I had the ability to damage him with my shells. If you watch the replay I actually was able to land one or two shells out of a salvo of 8, cause a fire, and damage half of his total HP with my main gun. I think if BB players intend to survive against submarines they're going to have to more often than not, play the cap circles to make subs either surface, or lose the game.

I think his question was could be have fired torpedoes at you w/out surfacing to reset the cap?

Haven't played them either so wondering that myself as it seems (from many forum posts) that has been the main issue brought up about sub vs BBs is that there's nothing a BB can do if a sub stays submerged but the sub can still attack the BB while submerged.

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Possible but close range shots at a max speed battleships while submerged are hard to pull off. Torpedoes are slow to ascend from the depths and also slow to turn even when pinged. If you manage to get on top of the sub their turning radius is also pretty bad.

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2 hours ago, pinnacle91 said:

So I had a submarine battle today in a battleship. All my DDs died, all I had was a CV. I was able to evade the sub because dunkerque is twice as fast as a sub. Dodge 2 sets of torpedoes. Get on the cap circle. Turn around, rush the sub, dodge more torps, force him to surface, then shoot him to death. I don't understand why people are being so overdramatic about sub vs BB in its current state. 

https://replayswows.com/replay/93951#stats

link to the replay if anyone is interested.

I did the same with a Prinz Eitel Friedrich.  Dodged most of the sub torps, ate few, then blasted them with main guns (while the secondaries pecked at the sub also) when they had to surface .  I got two of them that way.  Now granted they were probably noob sub drivers, but I was still able to dodge most of the torps......don't drive in a straight line.  Don't make it easy for the sub driver to get a ping on you.....zig and zag.

What needs to be fixed is the submarine's ability to STAY underwater if they sit at 1/4 speed or less to recharge their batteries.....that is some [edited].  That is the only chance a capital ship has to shoot at the sub is when it is forced to surface.  WG needs to make it either stay under and useless or surface to fight.  Hiding under the waves to recharge batteries is stupid and not balanced.

I haven't tried the slower battleships like Arizona, West Virginia, Mutsu, and Warspite.

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Basically this game mode is not only to train people how to use submarines, or for ASW ships to learn how to hunt submarines, it is also to teach battleship, carrier, and cruiser drivers how to deal with submarines.  What limitations do the submarines have.  How do you exploit them so you survive, or even force them to do something risky to end you.

The most skilled submarine captains will be the most annoying to deal with, as they will likely sit close enough to the surface that they will know how far away they need to be to get a hit with their ascending torpedoes.  While staying below 6 meters, and not shotgunning your ship. 

The rest?  Will get caught on the surface while repositioning, and get smacked hard by CA and BB HE shells at range.

I did encounter a good sub player that not only got the highest XP earning in the battle overall, but was on the losing team (got 1700 base XP, while the best player on the winning team got 1600 base XP).  Had sunk 5 ships and was trying to make me number six.  Did hit me with a shotgun attack, but I hit them back with HE because I was watching the depth indicator.  Than I slowed down over the submarine.  Forcing awkward maneuvering on the subs part.  The sub probably could have finished me off with another shotgun attack, and was going for it the last ten seconds of the game.  But again I was watching and had my guns aimed at it.  If the timer hadn't run out I'm sure I would have hit the sub again at 5 meters, and they probably would have got their torpedoes off to sink me....but we still had other ships left..  Our subs.  One was trying to cap, while the other was missing this sub a lot.   We had also had an Ark Royal with us, all rushing the cap, but the sub had made the carrier its fifth kill with homing torpedoes. into its stern.  (it was a U-69, so relatively quick reload and hardest hitting torpedoes of the lot...though shortest range).  The Ark Royal almost made it out of range.  Almost, while I was parking over the sub.

Edited by ithekro

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2 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

 

I think his question was could be have fired torpedoes at you w/out surfacing to reset the cap?

Haven't played them either so wondering that myself as it seems (from many forum posts) that has been the main issue brought up about sub vs BBs is that there's nothing a BB can do if a sub stays submerged but the sub can still attack the BB while submerged.

Thanks!  I didn't ask my question correctly and that is exactly what I meant.

2 hours ago, pinnacle91 said:

Possible but close range shots at a max speed battleships while submerged are hard to pull off. Torpedoes are slow to ascend from the depths and also slow to turn even when pinged. If you manage to get on top of the sub their turning radius is also pretty bad.

Thanks for the info!  I understand that he needed to stop you from taking the cap and he would have to surface in order to stop it.  Did he have the option, or time, to keep his distance in order to fire at you effectively?

Sorry, I didn't watch the replay but I do appreciate you answering my questions.

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