Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Commander_Joe_Glass

When is the overpen mechanic going to be reworked?

18 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
76 posts
10,322 battles

It was cool and all a few years back to 'give a chance' to lesser armored ship (aka DDs), but come on.

If a shell makes a hole in your hull the size of a Dodge RAM, don't you think that it will amper your ship a little more than "10% of the AP shell damage" ?

I don't know, but I imagine that if the same Dodge RAM would run through you house and exit at the other end, it would pretty much wreck anything on its path, not just put dirt on the floor.

So how about tuning that mechanic so it is based on the distance instead the shell travelled instead?  For example, a shot at more than 80% of max gun range, if the shell overpens it does only 10% of the AP shell dmg (actual mechanic).  A shot between 80% and 40% would yield 45% of AP shell dmg, and anything below 25% would do 75% of the AP shell dmg instead.

So if a ships max gun range is 20km, and it's AP shells does 10k, these would be the numbers:

Shots at 16km or more would yield 1k dmg.

Shot between 8km and 16km would yield 4.5k dmg

Shots on targets below 8km range would yield 7.5k dmg

This will prevent stupid RNG rolls (when hitting ships near you with 8 shells hits for example) to "go all in" and give you all overpens (or 8k dmg) when you should have nuked the hell out of your target, and then being killed by 80k dmg worth of torpedoes because the survivor could now launched them, and surprise there are no dud torpedoes in this game so they will all do their 50%+ dmg on you.  This happens too often and swing the balance of the game.  At max distance, if you roll all overpens, it's not dramatic and far less game changing.  But at close range, the impact of overpens is too high for BBs and their long reloads.

Some will argue that an overpen is an overpen disregarding the distance, but then again, overpen is just a term used by WG to say "minimal dmg" with no consequences and that is the problem.  An overpen has and should have consequences in reality.  In the game there is none and it is game changing when it occurs.  If overpen exists, I want to see dud torpedoes exist like they did in reality.  An AP shell that doesn't detonates because its mechanism wasn't activated on the hit would still break the inside of a ship: engine, pumps, fuel line, kill crew, flood, etc and they create lasting consequences.  Overpens at 10% is like a kick in the butt: it surprised you but didn't really hurt you.

Edit: typos

Edited by Charlie_The_Cat
Typo correction
  • Cool 5
  • Boring 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19
[TIRP]
Members
45 posts
5,240 battles

Well mate, the troll of overpens can never be fully understood if you don't play German Battleships. HOLY Guac these things overpen at LUDICROUS amounts. Yet, somehow, a Sinop can land full pens when you're angled... Beats me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
365 posts
4,232 battles

Agree with you, this is a really good idea and should be taken into account! It would counter some long range HE firing CL's like Smolensk, Worcester, etc. A good CL wouldnt be out in the open anyways, unless fast like RU Cruisers.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
76 posts
10,322 battles
1 minute ago, asianpaine said:

Well mate, the troll of overpens can never be fully understood if you don't play German Battleships. HOLY Guac these things overpen at LUDICROUS amounts. Yet, somehow, a Sinop can land full pens when you're angled... Beats me?

Maybe WoWS should use the damage system of WoT where if a shell pens, its does a random about of dmg -/+ 25%.  Shells can still bounces or riccochet, but at least when it pens, it does something more representative then what we have now.  Overpens just nullify the main dmg of the battleships or heavy cruisers.

If 8 shells overpens, can you still imagine the gaping hole in the other ships hull?  It woud probably dmg the ship beyond repair and even sink it because it is flooding (another thing that overpens should do: a chance of flooding).  Maybe instead of what I proposed above, they should compound the dmg by the number of shells that overpens and augment that strict 10% per shell dmg.  So if I retake my example, if you get some sort of compound-overpen mechanics that add +5% dmg per shells that overpens we could have something like this:

1 overpen : 10% of AP dmg

2 overpens : 15% of AP dmg per shell

3 : 25%

4 : 40%

5+ overpens : 60%

 

So for 8 overpens, instead of a meager 8k dmg (from a base 10k dmg AP shell) that doesn't even do anything to the target, it would do 48k dmg which is a little better for the caliber of the shell.  It's still far away from 80k, but at least it doesn't completely negate the damage like it does now.

  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
365 posts
4,232 battles
1 minute ago, Charlie_The_Cat said:

Maybe WoWS should use the damage system of WoT where if a shell pens, its does a random about of dmg -/+ 25%.  Shells can still bounces or riccochet, but at least when it pens, it does something more representative then what we have now.  Overpens just nullify the main dmg of the battleships or heavy cruisers.

If 8 shells overpens, can you still imagine the gaping hole in the other ships hull?  It woud probably dmg the ship beyond repair and even sink it because it is flooding (another thing that overpens should do: a chance of flooding).  Maybe instead of what I proposed above, they should compound the dmg by the number of shells that overpens and augment that strict 10% per shell dmg.  So if I retake my example, if you get some sort of compound-overpen mechanics that add +5% dmg per shells that overpens we could have something like this:

1 overpen : 10% of AP dmg

2 overpens : 15% of AP dmg per shell

3 : 25%

4 : 40%

5+ overpens : 60%

 

So for 8 overpens, instead of a meager 8k dmg (from a base 10k dmg AP shell) that doesn't even do anything to the target, it would do 48k dmg which is a little better for the caliber of the shell.  It's still far away from 80k, but at least it doesn't completely negate the damage like it does now.

I could see this but I could also see people not liking the random aspect as we already have enough random mechanics as it is AKA dispersion, fires, floods etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
662
[-AFK-]
Members
1,269 posts
15,904 battles
31 minutes ago, Charlie_The_Cat said:

It was cool and all a few years back to 'give a chance' to lesser armored ship (aka DDs), but come on.

If a shell makes a hole in your hull the side of a Dodge RAM, don't you think that it will amper your ship a little more than "10% of the AP shell damage" ?

I don't know, but I imagine that if the same Dodge RAM would run through you house and exit at the other end, it would pretty much wreck anything on its path, not just put dirt on the floor.

So how about tuning that mechanic so it is based on the distance instead the shell travelled instead?  For example, a shot at more than 80% of max gun range, if the shell overpens it does only 10% of the AP shell dmg (actual mechanic).  A shot between 80% and 40% would yield 45% of AP shell dmg, and anything below 25% would do 75% of the AP shell dmg instead.

So if a ships max gun range is 20km, and it's AP shells does 10k, these would be the numbers:

Shots at 16km or more would yield 1k dmg.

Shot between 8km and 16km would yield 4.5k dmg

Shots on targets below 8km range would yield 7.5k dmg

This will prevent stupid RNG rolls (when hitting ships near you with 8 shells hits for example) to "go all in" and give you all overpens (or 8k dmg) when you should have nuked the hell out of your target, and then being killed by 80k dmg worth of torpedoes because the survivor could now launched them, and surprise there are no dud torpedoes in this game so they will all do their 50%+ dmg on you.  This happens too often and swing the balance of the game.  At max distance, if you roll all overpens, it's not dramatic and far less game changing.  But at close range, the impacts of overpens is too high for BBs and their long reloads.

Some will argue that an overpen is an overpen disregarding the distance, but then again, overpen is just a term used by WG to say "minimal dmg" with no consequences and that is the problem.  And overpen has and should have consequences in reality.  In the game not and it is game changing when it occurs.  If overpens exists, I want to see dud torpedoes exist like they did in reality.  An AP shell that doesn't detonates because it's mechanism wasn't activated on the hit would still break the inside of a ship: engine, pumps, fuel line, kill crew, etc and they create lasting consequences.  Overpen at 10% like a kick in the butt: it suprised you but didn't really hurt you.

Because this is an arcade game, the lasting consequence is health. Some ships can heal it back some cannot. Overpen is still damage dealt.
Just think of it as your shell going in one side out the other, the crew killed, the fuel lines broken were all part of the health you removed from the ship. 

Keep firing until your guns cannot fire any more and accept the outcomes of fights that you cannot change the results of. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,113
[G-O-W]
Members
1,090 posts
3,195 battles

I always like putting 3 16 AP inch shells into a DD only for it to lose 10% of it's health...  The damage it would do in real life would be catastrophic..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
365 posts
4,232 battles
1 minute ago, LunchCutter said:

I always like putting 3 16 AP inch shells into a DD only for it to lose 10% of it's health...  The damage it would do in real life would be catastrophic..

Even if 1 hit it, would split the ship in half, should large enough AP calibers cause detonations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
768 posts
10,144 battles

Some decent ideas here, but increasing overpen damage may not be workable because of balance issues.

Increased damage would be a big buff to BBs and a clear nerf to DDs and light cruisers - other changes would be needed(i.e. buffs to DDs/CLs) if relative balance is to be maintained.

Edited by Dr_Powderfinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
722 posts
5,703 battles
41 minutes ago, asianpaine said:

Well mate, the troll of overpens can never be fully understood if you don't play German Battleships. HOLY Guac these things overpen at LUDICROUS amounts. Yet, somehow, a Sinop can land full pens when you're angled... Beats me?

 each shell has a fuse timer, russian AP has short fuse so its more likely to go boom inside the ship while german AP has long fuse so by the time it goes boom the shell has already exit from the other side, balance comrade...

 

to be honest i can understand bow and superstructure overpens but hits to mid section should be considered normal penetration, i mean even if the shell makes a clean cut and exits from the other side a big hole in your machinery, ammo racks or the structure that keeps the ship in one piece is not exactly minor damage.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,723
[KIA-C]
Members
3,815 posts
16,741 battles

OP conveniently forget that shell loses speed and penetration as it travels (meaning less overpens).

 

At close range BB doesn't really suffer much from overpen unlike what OP is saying. Aim at the citadel and you'll get citadel if the shell landed where it should be (see proof below)

Spoiler

shot-20_03.10_10_46.17-0229.thumb.jpg.276cf4e5a700e1654e4891d5a22c9e1b.jpg

shot-19_12.02_14_35.50-0464.thumb.jpg.d9ae77421f0f12234505aacecd5f1a5a.jpg

shot-20_03.09_18_13_13-0170.thumb.jpg.4f346c60848239275586be687d3d5c58.jpg

shot-20_04.29_20_44.25-0464.thumb.jpg.77a77223801b67ea90b53c21c4a67e16.jpg

 

Overpen aren't more broken than they were before. Ship like Smolensk is a special case due to its slim size but ask any good BB player what happens when a Minotaur show broadside at close range. They don't need a rework

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,363
[HYD]
Members
7,105 posts
5,289 battles
2 hours ago, Charlie_The_Cat said:

Shot between 8km and 16km would yield 4.5k dmg

I'm sorry, but this will not work. A destroyer necessarily operates with 16km of most enemy battleships, and making them lose a quarter of their HP with ever BB shell makes no sense. And no, historical accuracy is not a valid argument when game balance is involved. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,830 posts
3 hours ago, Charlie_The_Cat said:

If a shell makes a hole in your hull the size of a Dodge RAM, don't you think that it will amper your ship a little more than "10% of the AP shell damage" ?

I don't know, but I imagine that if the same Dodge RAM would run through you house and exit at the other end, it would pretty much wreck anything on its path, not just put dirt on the floor.

 

might need to rework that analogy a little, as I'm pretty sure my house is a lot smaller than a naval warship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,630
[PVE]
Members
8,500 posts
24,554 battles
1 hour ago, AlcatrazNC said:

OP conveniently forget that shell loses speed and penetration as it travels (meaning less overpens).

 

At close range BB doesn't really suffer much from overpen unlike what OP is saying. Aim at the citadel and you'll get citadel if the shell landed where it should be (see proof below)

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-20_03.10_10_46.17-0229.thumb.jpg.276cf4e5a700e1654e4891d5a22c9e1b.jpg

shot-19_12.02_14_35.50-0464.thumb.jpg.d9ae77421f0f12234505aacecd5f1a5a.jpg

shot-20_03.09_18_13_13-0170.thumb.jpg.4f346c60848239275586be687d3d5c58.jpg

shot-20_04.29_20_44.25-0464.thumb.jpg.77a77223801b67ea90b53c21c4a67e16.jpg

 

Overpen aren't more broken than they were before. Ship like Smolensk is a special case due to its slim size but ask any good BB player what happens when a Minotaur show broadside at close range. They don't need a rework

 

OP was referring to DDs (which have no citadel).

3 hours ago, Charlie_The_Cat said:

f a shell makes a hole in your hull the size of a Dodge RAM, don't you think that it will amper your ship a little more than "10% of the AP shell damage" ?

I don't know, but I imagine that if the same Dodge RAM would run through you house and exit at the other end, it would pretty much wreck anything on its path, not just put dirt on the floor.

You mansion dwellers...how big of a house do you live in to compare it to the size of a DD?

DDs are the length of a football field (300 meters = 300 yards +).

Your 5% example in your 2nd post takes some pretty big leaps there...5% of 10 is .5 so 

1-10%

2-10.5% etc.

10%-15% is a 50% increase.

2 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

I always like putting 3 16 AP inch shells into a DD only for it to lose 10% of it's health...  The damage it would do in real life would be catastrophic..

 

2 hours ago, Raven2303 said:

Even if 1 hit it, would split the ship in half, should large enough AP calibers cause detonations?

Any penetrations can cause detonations & each & every 1 is rolled for in the game...but det flags cancel them out & many DD players use them for just that reason.

As for your assumptions of 3 (let alone 1) BB shell being an instant annihilation of a DD...during the Channel Dash (Sharnhorst/Gneissnau/Prince Eugen/& a bunch of DDs...& minesweepers later on)...5-20 year old (at the time)...

22 minutes ago, Dareios said:

might need to rework that analogy a little, as I'm pretty sure my house is a lot smaller than a naval warship.

[Damn...ninja'd...at least in getting it posted :-)]

(Where was I?)...5 DDs charged & the last 1 (from a distance of 2.5km or maybe even closer) took 5 main caliber shells...3 from Prince Eugen (granted...only a cruiser..but a T8 comparative cruiser to about a T2-T4 DD) & 2 from Gniesenau...& not only didn't sink but was able to make it back to port on it's own power...granted at very slow speed due to it's fresh water tanks being destroyed & having to run it's steam engines on sea water but it made it.

The DD was an RN DD named Campbelton or something like that...forget exactly...but it wasn't the T3 Cambeltown in the game but something similar.

The 1st shell at least (1of the Eugen's) definitely armed & exploded in the ship & all of them may have but I don't remember all of the details as it's been a few years since I read the book....titled "Breakout" (formerly titled "Fiasco").

The whole book is an amazing read (& Fiasco is definitely a fitting title for it) but that story is 1 of the examples of "DDs are not that fragile" I have used quite often here in the forums.

Many loss of life to be sure but the ship was still able to get home on it's own.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0
[DIAF]
Beta Testers
8 posts
8,981 battles

Not to nitpick but a gearing class dd is , according to Wikipedia, 390 feet long not 300 yards or meters.

 

I just get annoyed when I'm in the zao and hit a broadside-ish des moines with 12 ap rounds and EVERY STINKING SHELL over pens.

Edited by Crispy007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26
[KSE]
Members
90 posts
16,402 battles

Umm, the iowa class battleship is only 270m in length... Im not sure which destroyer is 300m long...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×