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wildgooseman

BB Mission For Playing Subs.

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Having played the 5 battles a day for the extra xp/credits and barely seen a player in BBs I'm not surprised that there is now a mission specific for them. However needing to win 3 battles to get 3 Back-2-School camo may still not be enough to get the masses into BBs. Probably would have got more interest if it were play 3 battles and gave a camo with more than just 1 xp bonus on it.

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I tend to play New Mexico in sub battles anyway.  In the last two days I think I've only been hit by submarines two or three times, and never sunk by one (one contributed heavily, but didn't get the kill).  It might be cause there are less bots in some of these matches than during the PTS, that the game coming down to one sub vs a BB aren't as common.  The players seem more into killing the things that can kill their DDs now than normal, and the bots....well the bots don't care.

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Your main mission in Sub matches is to be a damage pinata.

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1 minute ago, Kuramitsu said:

Your main mission in Sub matches is to be a damage pinata.

When they have to "pay" you extra to play the new game mode, you know it's going to be trash. Having sailed around in an Arizona for a few sub games, I can safely say they are awful. You're stuck having to avoid entire areas of the map if a sub has been seen in the area, and if one breaks through your AWS ships (or they are mostly dead), you're nothing but a target. When BB's can't push safely anymore, the game mode is a total failure. Enjoy everyone hiding in the back, WoWS, because that's what you're going to get with subs.

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BB's job in sub battles is fire support for the CLs and DDs (and CVs in some larger ship happens to use the chaos to go around the sub infested middle)  It doesn't have to be long range fire support, but its not brawling ranges until late game.

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12 minutes ago, ithekro said:

BB's job in sub battles is fire support for the CLs and DDs (and CVs in some larger ship happens to use the chaos to go around the sub infested middle)  It doesn't have to be long range fire support, but its not brawling ranges until late game.

If these miserable subs go live into Randoms, I will get the biggest laugh out of people whining about how BB's and other non-AWS ships "aren't pushing" or are "hiding in the back." Anyone who wants subs also wants all their non-AWS ships to hide in the back, basically. 

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Move up to 8 to10 km from the middle of a caps (or map if there is not non-base cap), and be bait.  You are out of effective range for the enemy subs unless they want to push your ASW forces, and you are in killing range of any of their ASW forces that want to push your subs.  you will also be in range (are nearly) to any enemy BB that does the same,  On some maps this put you not all that far from the cap circles, rather than way on the back line.   Mid-range fire support rather than long range fire support.   You are more accurate.  Will take fire, and can bait subs into coming to your ASW ships that should be between you and them.  If your ASW falls, you don't need to run to the back of the map.  You can run to the sides of the map.  This can allow you to still engage other enemy ships, while their submarine gets farther and farther behind you.  At 6 to 8 km out, their torpedoes usually will run out before they catch you.  Only the American sub has the longer range torpedoes, and since its hard to land a ping that far out, it makes more sense to take the torpedo speed boost skill that cuts the range down to a little over 8km, which matches up with the Soviet torpedoes'.

The German torpedoes are the only ones that have a really good bite to them, doing about 50% more damage than the Soviet or American torpedoes.  But they have the least range.  If you are 6km from a U-69, they aren't going to hit you as you run, or even if you run perpendicular to their torpedoes.  They should run out of fuel before the tracking can arc to hit you.

Edited by ithekro
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5 minutes ago, ithekro said:

Move up to 8 to10 km from the middle of a caps (or map if there is not non-base cap), and be bait.  You are out of effective range for the enemy subs unless they want to push your ASW forces, and you are in killing range of any of their ASW forces that want to push your subs.  you will also be in range (are nearly) to any enemy BB that does the same,  On some maps this put you not all that far from the cap circles, rather than way on the back line.   Mid-range fire support rather than long range fire support.   You are more accurate.  Will take fire, and can bait subs into coming to your ASW ships that should be between you and them.  If your ASW falls, you don't need to run to the back of the map.  You can run to the sides of the map.  This can allow you to still engage other enemy ships, while their submarine gets farther and farther behind you.  At 6 to 8 km out, their torpedoes usually will run out before they catch you.  Only the American sub has the longer range torpedoes, and since its hard to land a ping that far out, it makes more sense to take the torpedo speed boost skill that cuts the range down to a little over 8km, which matches up with the Soviet torpedoes'.

The German torpedoes are the only ones that have a really good bite to them, doing about 50% more damage than the Soviet or American torpedoes.  But they have the least range.  If you are 6km from a U-69, they aren't going to hit you as you run, or even if you run perpendicular to their torpedoes.  They should run out of fuel before the tracking can arc to hit you.

This.

Played Ark Royal and Barham(QE) last night, just to tempt fate.

Watched the mini-map like a hawk, and focused down red surface forces. All wins. (Though some of the battles were in a CV/BB/DD division.)

I can’t use subs worth spit; so perhaps it’s my thing to play heavy support instead.

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1 hour ago, old_radagast said:

When they have to "pay" you extra to play the new game mode, you know it's going to be trash. Having sailed around in an Arizona for a few sub games, I can safely say they are awful. You're stuck having to avoid entire areas of the map if a sub has been seen in the area, and if one breaks through your AWS ships (or they are mostly dead), you're nothing but a target. When BB's can't push safely anymore, the game mode is a total failure. Enjoy everyone hiding in the back, WoWS, because that's what you're going to get with subs.

LOL you act like that didn't happen before subs arrived.

 

You never had your DD screen get crushed in Randoms / Ranked and then your Battleship has to bail out of the area because of Stealth - Torpedo DDs running freely?

And you had to run in your BB.  You stay there or worse, try to charge the DDs, they'll eat you alive.  Fletchers, Gearings, Kamikazes, Shinonomes, Shimakazes, etc... They'll be fast enough and stealthy enough to keep from being detected by you, and just chuck torps your way.

:Smile_coin:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Most sub battles games were I see a BB or CA running to a corner, its not them running from a sub.  Its them kiting another surface ship or trying to get away from a destroyer.

 

(on the above, I did manage to charge a Kamikaze once, and frustrate the player long enough to get them to make a mistake.  I'm not sure how exactly, but I was able to time my turns just enough to dodge all his torpedoes.  Than turned away, got clipped by one, when I was too close to an island that hampered my turn, but than he got too close, I spotted him and blapped him (in a New Mexico).

But generally I hate fighting Kamikaze.  Even in other destroyers.

Edited by ithekro

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1 hour ago, wildgooseman said:

Having played the 5 battles a day for the extra xp/credits and barely seen a player in BBs I'm not surprised that there is now a mission specific for them. However needing to win 3 battles to get 3 Back-2-School camo may still not be enough to get the masses into BBs. Probably would have got more interest if it were play 3 battles and gave a camo with more than just 1 xp bonus on it.

image.png.51710a1d84f6fe0a35b6939ee3c0add5.png

Lol is that for real? They are literally telling you you'll get schooled for playing a BB

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15 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

LOL you act like that didn't happen before subs arrived.

You never had your DD screen get crushed in Randoms / Ranked and then your Battleship has to bail out of the area because of Stealth - Torpedo DDs running freely?

And you had to run in your BB.  You stay there or worse, try to charge the DDs, they'll eat you alive.  Fletchers, Gearings, Kamikazes, Shinonomes, Shimakazes, etc... They'll be fast enough and stealthy enough to keep from being detected by you, and just chuck torps your way.

:Smile_coin:

First, if you're going to argue that subs, which are immune at all ranges against entire classes of ships, are the same as DD's, which are not, you are not arguing in good faith and thus you cannot be taken seriously. I've killed plenty of DD's in mid-tier BB's; killed 3 of them in one sub game today. That is literally impossible vs. a sub, unless he's nice enough to just let me kill him. 

Second, even if you really do think subs are "no more immune than DD's" to counterattack - which is objectively wrong - you fail to provide any evidence why adding more total immunity to the game is a good idea. Whatever you're going for here, other than "subs same as DD's," you missed.

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15 minutes ago, old_radagast said:

First, if you're going to argue that subs, which are immune at all ranges against entire classes of ships, are the same as DD's, which are not, you are not arguing in good faith and thus you cannot be taken seriously. I've killed plenty of DD's in mid-tier BB's; killed 3 of them in one sub game today. That is literally impossible vs. a sub, unless he's nice enough to just let me kill him. 

Second, even if you really do think subs are "no more immune than DD's" to counterattack - which is objectively wrong - you fail to provide any evidence why adding more total immunity to the game is a good idea. Whatever you're going for here, other than "subs same as DD's," you missed.

Impossible!  But the sub did make a mistake.

15OeB3V.jpg

 

Here's the funny thing with Non-ASW ships in Submarine Battles.

Your job is the same as it was in current Randoms, Ranked, etc.

You shoot up ships.

I know that's hard to fathom for the average NA Server player that just barely knows how to log in and hit the BATTLE! button, but it really is indeed that simple... STILL... Even in Submarine Battles.

 

Your job in a Non-ASW Ship...

ROmNnpT.jpg

znqjtKy.jpg

... Is still the same.

 

The funny part is you boast about shooting up and destroying DDs in your Battleship yourself... Yet now in Submarine Battles, it suddenly is now an impossible task for you.

Are DDs, CLs all the sudden completely immune to Battleships, CAs in Submarine Battles?

Just LOL!

:Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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It definitely didn't take long for people to stop playing the mode if they didn't have a submarine. It's still relatively early in the evening on the east coast, but matches are already being filled out with bots. This could be a combination of more players having access to subs (as evidenced by the number of subs in queue), and the dearth of fun experienced by players whose ships have no ASW option.

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53 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Here's the funny thing with Non-ASW ships in Submarine Battles.

Your job is the same as it was in current Randoms, Ranked, etc You shoot up ships.

I know that's hard to fathom for the average NA Server player that just barely knows how to log in and hit the BATTLE! button, but it really is indeed that simple... STILL... Even in Submarine Battles.

Your job in a Non-ASW Ship... Is still the same.

The funny part is you boast about shooting up and destroying DDs in your Battleship yourself... Yet now in Submarine Battles, it suddenly is now an impossible task for you.

Are DDs, CLs all the sudden completely immune to Battleships, CAs in Submarine Battles?

Just LOL!

:Smile_teethhappy:

Yes, non-AWS ships "Shoot things" - nobody said otherwise. What I didn't enjoy in the sub games is the reduction in "ships to shoot," which means less XP, credits, and actual time spent playing the game in a match vs. dodging subs, as well as the utter immunity of subs to counterplay if you lack AWS.

The rest of your post is either nonsensical replies to valid problems with subs or just obvious efforts to pick a fight.

Yes, I can kill DD's in a BB now and then - that in no way changes how subs are immune to counterplay from non-AWS ships, which is the problem. Sure, sure - kill all the enemy AWS ships, and then your AWS ships can kill their subs. That's nice, in theory... but it now requires a lot more teamwork than before, which is frustrating since it rarely happens in a game of random people. There's a difference between "teamwork" and "everyone on the team needs to do their jobs well (and still be alive) or many of us won't be able to have as much fun." THAT type of teamwork is unwise to require in a game full of random players. 

Subs COULD work in their own game mode, sure. I could also see them in a game mode  that ONLY has full teams per side, so you don't get stuck with poor players running your AWS and letting your team down. But put them in a game of randoms, where your few AWS ships get killed early, leaving everyone else as glorified targets... just not any fun, at least not for me. If you like them, fine, but your efforts to pick a fight over it obfuscate whatever point you were trying to make.

Edited by old_radagast
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17 minutes ago, guns_at_last_light said:

It definitely didn't take long for people to stop playing the mode if they didn't have a submarine. It's still relatively early in the evening on the east coast, but matches are already being filled out with bots. This could be a combination of more players having access to subs (as evidenced by the number of subs in queue), and the dearth of fun experienced by players whose ships have no ASW option.

That's the thing.  You promote months of "Submarines!" with news bits, PTS test runs, and then bring them "Live" (sort of) for people to test.  Then all the sudden, people can't play Submarines because they're gated.

 

I wanted to test them again (I was there for the previous PTS run), but I can't get any to try out, and see what has changed since PTS.

The surface ship aspect hasn't changed.  I wanted to see if anything different has happened with the subs themselves.

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Just now, old_radagast said:

Yes, non-AWS ships "Shoot things" - nobody said otherwise. What I didn't enjoy in the sub games is the reduction in "ships to shoot," which means less XP, credits, and actual time spent playing the game in a match vs. dodging subs, as well as the utter immunity of subs to counterplay if you lack AWS.

The rest of your post is either nonsensical replies to valid problems with subs or just obvious efforts to pick a fight.

Yes, I can kill DD's in a BB now and then - that in no way changes how subs are immune to counterplay from non-AWS ships, which is the problem. Sure, sure - kill all the enemy AWS ships, and then your AWS ships can kill their subs. That's nice, in theory... but it now requires a lot more teamwork than before, which is frustrating since it rarely happens in a game of random people. There's a difference between "teamwork" and "everyone on the team needs to do their jobs well (and still be alive) or many of us won't be able to have as much fun." THAT type of teamwork is unwise to require in a game full of random players. 

Subs COULD work in their own game mode, sure. I could also see them in a game mode  that ONLY has full teams per side, so you don't get stuck with poor players running your AWS and letting your team down. But put them in a game of randoms, where your few AWS ships get killed early, leaving everyone else as glorified targets... just not any fun, at least not for me. If you like them, fine, but doesn't make you "right," and I pity anyone who honestly thinks along those lines, particularly in a video game.

There are still a lot of ships to shoot up with a BB / CA.

JllnRkZ.jpg

4UsYO2T.jpg

 

You shoot up the enemy's ASW ships when you can.  Stuff you should have been already doing in a BB, CA in Randoms because that's what you were already going for to begin with.  It just happens that those ASW ships are, surprise surprise, ships you can still damage.

You shoot up those ASW ships and deplete the enemy ASW capability.

Your presence as a Battleship is also there to punish said ASW ships that try to get cute with your team's Submarines.

 

Something called Team Play.  Which is a tough thing for NA server players to understand.

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There are still a lot of ships to shoot up with a BB / CA.

JllnRkZ.jpg

4UsYO2T.jpg

 

You shoot up the enemy's ASW ships when you can.  Stuff you should have been already doing in a BB, CA in Randoms because that's what you were already going for to begin with.  It just happens that those ASW ships are, surprise surprise, ships you can still damage.

You shoot up those ASW ships and deplete the enemy ASW capability.

Your presence as a Battleship is also there to punish said ASW ships that try to get cute with your team's Submarines.

 

Something called Team Play.  Which is a tough thing for NA server players to understand.

Exactly since once all the DDs and CLs that carry depth charges are sunk, the danger to your subs is little to none unless the sub surfaces in front of the enemy ships and gets destroyed that way.

Also the mission was added for BBs thanks to WG having to supplement Bot BBs into subs matches because of shortages in human BB players.

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2 hours ago, old_radagast said:

When they have to "pay" you extra to play the new game mode, you know it's going to be trash. Having sailed around in an Arizona for a few sub games, I can safely say they are awful. You're stuck having to avoid entire areas of the map if a sub has been seen in the area, and if one breaks through your AWS ships (or they are mostly dead), you're nothing but a target. When BB's can't push safely anymore, the game mode is a total failure. Enjoy everyone hiding in the back, WoWS, because that's what you're going to get with subs.

BBs rarely pushed when there wasnt subs to worry about. Oh no, there MIGHT be an invisible DD that MIGHT be able to torp me, better stay 20km behind the team just in case. Subs havent changed that attitude.

 

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There are still a lot of ships to shoot up with a BB / CA

You shoot up the enemy's ASW ships when you can.  Stuff you should have been already doing in a BB, CA in Randoms because that's what you were already going for to begin with.  It just happens that those ASW ships are, surprise surprise, ships you can still damage.

You shoot up those ASW ships and deplete the enemy ASW capability.

Your presence as a Battleship is also there to punish said ASW ships that try to get cute with your team's Submarines.

Something called Team Play.  Which is a tough thing for NA server players to understand.

How simple do I have to make this? I did not enjoy sub play based upon my experiences. Note that your experience may vary.

I didn't enjoy the reduction in ships to battle. Yes, enemy ships still exist to shoot - nobody said otherwise. I'm also well aware of the need to shoot AWS ships. Attempting to "disprove" how I feel about something with events that didn't happen is mindboggling. "You dislike sub games because I'm going to assume you weren't shooting AWS ships, so your other complaints about subs don't count." Sure...

I didn't enjoy the "forced teamwork with a sub to my head" nonsense. For example, I'd like to push as a BB because that's part of my job. Oh, I can't do that in some games because my AWS ships are busy ignoring the enemy subs / hiding / being blown up / already dead. I also didn't enjoy the few times a sub wandered up to within a few km's of me and killed me without any threat of reprisal. Say what you will about DD's, they can't do that. Beyond a certain point, forced teamwork is a HORRIBLE idea in games that have random mobs on both side vs. actual teams. Put subs in " full team only mode?" Sure! But in Randoms, where your teams 1 or 2 AWS ships may get sunk a few minutes or have no idea what to do? Horrible idea.

You are welcome to your opinions on subs, too, but your attempts to "invalidate" mine are just bizarre. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dareios said:

BBs rarely pushed when there wasnt subs to worry about. Oh no, there MIGHT be an invisible DD that MIGHT be able to torp me, better stay 20km behind the team just in case. Subs havent changed that attitude.

Yeah, but now the BB has valid point. Push a DD hard enough, and he either has to back off or risk being spotted and hammered by the whole team. Sure, sure - some subs, especially most at higher tiers, can shoot well past detection range, but they still have to keep moving, which means they can be cornered, spotted eventually, etc. Subs are immune to most of that. No AWS = no damage. I've said it before - if subs go into Randoms "because the people wanted it," those same people had better not whine about non-AWS ships hiding in the back.

As for BB's hiding in the back in general, I'm no fan of that. As a BB, taking damage, drawing attention, and acting as a moving "fortress" is part of your role. Too bad you can't do jack about that sub sitting 2 km's away because your AWS ships are sunk, chasing other subs, or otherwise not around. Post-subs, smart BB's will hide out in the back JUST close enough to shoot enemy AWS ships. And people will hate it, whine, and yet still think subs are somehow a "great idea" that is in no way connected to the suddenly static and dysfunctional gameplay that "mysteriously" cropped up after subs went into Random. :cap_old:

Edited by old_radagast

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Just now, old_radagast said:

Yeah, but now the BB has valid point. Push a DD hard enough, and he either has to back off or risk being spotted and hammered by the whole team. Sure, sure - some subs, especially most at higher tiers, can shoot well past detection range, but they still have to keep moving, which means they can be cornered, spotted eventually, etc. Subs are immune to most of that. No AWS = no damage. I've said it before - if subs go into Randoms "because the people wanted it," those same people had better not whine about non-AWS ships hiding in the back.

well...

sure, you can say that the game is all about selfish pugs who only play for themselves...

but, its designed as a team game. The BB now EVEN MORE needs to move up 5km behind the team, in order to support his escort ships, who will in turn guard him from the scary SS

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7 minutes ago, Dareios said:

well...

sure, you can say that the game is all about selfish pugs who only play for themselves...

but, its designed as a team game. The BB now EVEN MORE needs to move up 5km behind the team, in order to support his escort ships, who will in turn guard him from the scary SS

Yes. Too bad they won't. Or the AWS ships will be clueless and you'll have 3 chasing 1 sub while the other 2 go by undetected. This is what I'm talking about - adding subs and the whole AWS mini-game forces players to be even more reliant upon competent, non-selfish team members if they want to have fun and actually get much of anything out of each match. That is a horrible idea in a game composed of random people of random skill levels and everything else tossed together on each side in a "team."

Many people hate the lack of actual teamwork in games such as this, but some seem to think that if you beat "teamwork" into people's heads by making the game require more and more of it, human nature will change, and we'll all be recreating the Battle of Jutland with naval precision. "Maybe subs will do it..." they think.. maybe if we make the individual's game experience more miserable and more dependent on the actions of others, people will "git gud" and they'll finally get the teamwork they want in a game. But it never happens. That's not human nature. Instead, you're just going to get more chat-rage at AWS fails, more selfish behavior to avoid sub attacks, and more people simply walking away because they are tired of this overly complex nonsense. The game should be designed for the audience that exists; you can't change the audience to match some lofty ideal.

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Just left a BB/Sub battle.  1 player BB (me in New Mexico), 1 player CA (non asw), 1 player CL ( Leander as I recall), 1 player DD, 3 player subs.  The remaining 5 ships were all bots, including the other BB, and guess what... they all charged right into the face of death and sank.  I spent the entire battle dueling with Arizona and finally finished him just before an opposing DD and two subs got me with a firestorm of torpedoes.  I think there were still 5 ships alive on the other side to just me.

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