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hangglide42

Submarine Game Suggestions

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Hey All! - Hangglide42 here weighing in a bit now that Submarines are starting to be introduced into the game.  Way back in 2017, during a time when WG was still saying subs will never be in the game, I posted an "April Fools Day" article that described how subs could possibly be introduced into the game as a kind of a jest, but also a nod to what was likely to come.  Now that we've come thru a number of PTs and Subs have been introduced in its own game mode w/ 9.4 -  concerns still remain due to certain issues that are problemmatic w/ this class which still make it a WIP for general introduction into the PvP mode of Random Battles.

CCs, Youtubers & Streamers are commenting on these issues but in general, the largest problem areas are:

  • Violation of the "any class can kill any other class" model so far inherent to WOWS - subs violate this in that historically, it was primarily DDs and CVs that were even equipped to do  anything about subs.  The WOWS implementation of subs limits active sub hunting when underwater to DDs & certain CLs - this leads to substantial gameplay problems if your active killers have died & are no longer able to kill the subs.
  • A overworked DD class w/ a high skill bar already, will be tasked w/ an even larger task to learn how to hunt subs targeting friendlies w/ homing torps while trying not to get killed by the normal enemy surface vesseles -- in addition to the radar, hydro, CV threat w/ capping & spotting responsibilities.
  • Keeping a 12v12 format w/ 2-3 possible subs on a team, will result in a reduction of targets for players in CAs, most CLs & BBs as they only have 9 or 10 viable targets
  • The balancing issues for submarine performance vs. surface vessels could pose a much larger issue than balancing CVs.
  • These problems potentially get worse as higher tier (i.e.) subs also get introduced into the game


Having outlined this, I'd like to make a possible set of suggestions that could result in less risk to disrupting the existing game balance for current 4-surface ship class players, but also be well received by the PvE & PvP player base in addressing certain requests that have been made for a long time wrt to new game modes.

Assuming the balancing issue for sub performance vs surface vessels (primarily hunting DDs) can be worked out thru more live testing, Submarines will be viable in Co-op and Scenario game modes.   If it is found that trying to solve the other issues requires a very convoluted & risky disruption that could "break" the game balance mechanic - I'd like to propose another solution rather than trying to shoehorn Subs into the current Random Battle format.

Submarine play may be best suited for a "Asymmetric Battle mode" - this would be a PvP mode that's tied to a form of Scenario or Mission Goal that is asymmetric for both sides.  The easiest explanation will be thru examples of 4 possible Scenarios for starters:

  • Convoy Protection - One team is comprised of DDs (+ possibly subs) who are tasked w/ escorting a convoy safely thru torpedo alley.   The other team is comprised of Submarines who must kill the Convoy & take out the escorts, if needed.  More points given to subs for getting the merchants (who are bots).
  • Wolfpack vs. Hunter Killer Group - This is a full PvP melee game that is DDs (or CVs if WG changes it so CVs can damage subs) vs Subs -
  • Task Force Picket Line - This one is similar to Convoy Protection except that the Submarines represent a picket line & must inflict as much damage to a Task Force of heavier ships (who are bots), & the screening DD force, if needed.  More points given to subs for hitting the heavies rather than the escorts.  This mode could also extend to non-ASW equipped ships instead of bots (i.e. u could play this one as a BB or CA) - if you want to experience what it's like (like the current limited test mode).
  • Sub vs. Sub - Underwater battle of Subs only - given the current sub capabilities to kill their underwater counterpart, a viable game option.


The advantages here are the following:

  • The issue of "rock paper scissors" violation & the DD skill level issue can be consolidated as a potential issue - u will not have the problem of trying to balance ships which have no ASW capabilities w/ those that do or create disruptive balance compromises in the current Random Battle game format.
  • DD players who want to test their skill, can play these modes w/o having to do so in a Random game w/ the increased skill burden.
  • All players on both sides have a mission and no targets on the enemy team are excluded to them
  • If this can be done w/ a PvP game mode, it should be possible to completely replace one of the sides w/ bots -- which lends itself to adaptation into a PvE game w/ non-player enemies.  This will also address the clamoring of the PvE community for more Scenarios to a certain degree.

I'd be interested in hearing your comments or thoughts - but please be constructive & don't use this thread as a vent session

o7 Captains!

 

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23 minutes ago, Versili said:

Here's another ....scrap em.  Lol.

And the request to be constructive goes out with the first post.

I made similar suggestions earlier.  Sub hunter and convoy escort scenarios should not be all that difficult to program in PVE because they already us the PVE format in the scenario battles.  PVP would only require limiting the selection in MM and writing victory conditions to suit the scenario.  In addition, maybe the Tier IV and V destroyers should be given ASW armament to widen the list of ships to choose from and increase variety.  Carriers in these scenarios should have ASW ability also, and a variety of light carriers could be included at Tier V and VI since during the Battle of the Atlantic they played a prominent role (separate tech tree perhaps?).

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4 hours ago, michael_zahnle said:

And the request to be constructive goes out with the first post.

I made similar suggestions earlier.  Sub hunter and convoy escort scenarios should not be all that difficult to program in PVE because they already us the PVE format in the scenario battles.  PVP would only require limiting the selection in MM and writing victory conditions to suit the scenario.  In addition, maybe the Tier IV and V destroyers should be given ASW armament to widen the list of ships to choose from and increase variety.  Carriers in these scenarios should have ASW ability also, and a variety of light carriers could be included at Tier V and VI since during the Battle of the Atlantic they played a prominent role (separate tech tree perhaps?).

The idea of Bringing subs Into ops is great . Don't get me wrong . Unfortunately nothing said and or though of here has ever been enough to nudge the machine that's WG. For them Operations  are a non money making pve boosting way of not paying for alot of things in game . It's sad WG thinks of it this way . People spend money on alot of things even on ships in the premium shop to play operations . But to them . And I quote a WG employee once saying " operations aren't on our top priority right now" . Two years later they still haven't brought back the ops we lost. The sky is the limit but it seems they would rather make paper ships and shove them down our throats that to actually expand the game and make it ....dare I say it. FUN.!!!

Anyway I agree with you and alot of others with good ideas . WG just needs to get kicked in the N@D$$ acouple of times to come to their senses .

Oops I feel a chat ban coming. Lol.

Cheers.:Smile_honoring:

Edited by Versili

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49 minutes ago, Versili said:

The idea of Bringing subs Into ops is great . Don't get me wrong . Unfortunately nothing said and or though of here has ever been enough to nudge the machine that's WG. For them Operations  are a non money making pve boosting way of not paying for alot of things in game . It's sad WG thinks of it this way . People spend money on alot of things even on ships in the premium shop to play operations . But to them . And I quote a WG employee once saying " operations aren't on our top priority right now" . Two years later they still haven't brought back the ops we lost. The sky is the limit but it seems they would rather make paper ships and shove them down our throats that to actually expand the game and make it ....dare I say it. FUN.!!!

Anyway I agree with you and alot of others with good ideas . WG just needs to get kicked in the N@D$$ acouple of times to come to their senses .

Oops I feel a chat ban coming. Lol.

Cheers.:Smile_honoring:

I get the profit motive.  Here's a suggestion, Premium sub chasers and destroyer escorts, each with enhanced ASW and hydro to counter the stealth abilities of the submarines.  These would be useful in co-op and possibly random battles at their level... say Tiers IV thru VI, where at Tier VI they perform better than typical destroyers at hunting subs.  Low detectability, turn on a dime maneuverability, weak guns and torpedoes, but killer ASW.

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9 hours ago, Versili said:

Here's another ....scrap em.  Lol.

Why you hating for subs are fabulous :fish_cute_2:

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3 minutes ago, LastRemnant said:

Why you hating for subs are fabulous :fish_cute_2:

I was being more of an [edited]. more on the side of poking a stick at the suggestion of being removed from the game 😁.

Did you read the reply on the next response m8.

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On 5/29/2020 at 11:50 AM, Versili said:

Here's another ....scrap em.  Lol.

Subs are not the problem. It's how wows has modeled the subs, and they done a bad job of it, just like the ridiculous CV rework. Seriously; subs that travel at almost twice the speed submerged than real subs did; no minimum arming distance; even though your battery is dead, you can still move at ANY speed; the second "citadel" ping, the one that "ignores" anti torpedo protection; the lack of most ships ability at ASW, and, among the worst, the idiotic Dolphin attack, were a sub can leap to the surface, fire torpedo's at point blank range and dive out of range of return fire in a matter of a few seconds. Even an experienced sub crew would take a minimum of about 30 seconds to dive, not 4-5 seconds. Add to that, subs could turn much quicker than these subs can. That's one reason why ships had K Guns, because subs could turn so quickly. But by comparison, these subs turn like turtles.

 

These are not difficult to correct and it would take away these subs almost invincible to ASW. But, will wows developer's listen? Nah....

Edited by Seawolf148
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7 hours ago, Seawolf148 said:

Subs are not the problem. It's how wows has modeled the subs, and they done a bad job of it, just like the ridiculous CV rework. Seriously; subs that travel at almost twice the speed submerged than real subs did; no minimum arming distance; even though your battery is dead, you can still move at ANY speed; the second "citadel" ping, the one that "ignores" anti torpedo protection; the lack of most ships ability at ASW, and, among the worst, the idiotic Dolphin attack, were a sub can leap to the surface, fire torpedo's at point blank range and dive out of range of return fire in a matter of a few seconds. Even an experienced sub crew would take a minimum of about 30 seconds to dive, not 4-5 seconds. Add to that, subs could turn much quicker than these subs can. That's one reason why ships had K Guns, because subs could turn so quickly. But by comparison, these subs turn like turtles.

 

These are not difficult to correct and it would take away these subs almost invincible to ASW. But, will wows developer's listen? Nah....

As I said before I was being more of an [edited] bad I'd rather have them in ops.  Hunting conyoys and making life miserable for them. WG needs to slow their role with new ships and take care of core issues.

Plenty of people say the game can be made so much better giving people options in play style . And I belive they are right . I'd rather play a bad @$$ operation than hang out in pvp listening to the bellowing crybabies blaming you for not helping when they are the ones caught with their pants down.

We shall see what wg has in store but for now even I have taken a step back. Been here since open beta and I'll keep playing till the servers shut down . But even I have to ask what the heck are they doing.

Cheers m8 and only time will tell.:Smile_honoring:

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12 hours ago, Versili said:

As I said before I was being more of an [edited] bad I'd rather have them in ops.  Hunting conyoys and making life miserable for them. WG needs to slow their role with new ships and take care of core issues.

Plenty of people say the game can be made so much better giving people options in play style . And I belive they are right . I'd rather play a bad @$$ operation than hang out in pvp listening to the bellowing crybabies blaming you for not helping when they are the ones caught with their pants down.

We shall see what wg has in store but for now even I have taken a step back. Been here since open beta and I'll keep playing till the servers shut down . But even I have to ask what the heck are they doing.

Cheers m8 and only time will tell.:Smile_honoring:

Agreed

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Comrades first I want to say you pros at WoWs do a beautiful job, it is astounding.  Really professional job and your game is almost addictive.   Really a professional job.  Please accept these comments for consideration.

First, playing a sub in not easy.  Trying to learn 7 on 7 is really not possible.  Suggest a separate training room for both Subs and DD.  When trying to learn one does not need some JoJo to sink your DD or SUB.  One needs to develop the basics without wasteful distraction.  Next on torpedo's.  I could be wrong but I perceive that sub torpedo's are not as powerful as ship torpedos.  That seems illogical.  Historically the Jap Long Lance was supposedly superior to the US torpedo. 

2.  Suggest more controls for a sub such as.  One that will bring a sub to Periscope depth.  Lke key X.  True one can do it but its hit or miss and distracting.   Next you need a key for a emergency dive like key V.  There is also no crush depth or test depth.  That's not realistic. 

3.  Consider making target acquisition and targeting easier.  Homing torpedo's is fine but the way its done now does not make sense to me and its not that accurate.  The best homing weapons are fire and forget systems. 

4.  Please develop Bot Subs.  I  hate playing random or 7v7 ets.   Im just not that good at it.  In fact I would loose within just a few minutes 75% of the time.  Folks, is not the purpose of WoWs to provide a game people can enjoy and one which you can make a living off of.  Make it too hard and I wont play cause loosing is  NO FUN!!!!!!!!  Ok Im in my 70s big deal.  I was once a young LT, I had a great career.  But, Im not a match for lots of younger folk.  So why penalize me or force me to play something that is not fun.  Do that and I might quit and along with that, goes me buying stuff.  Get the point. 

Thanks I hope you find this useful or at least of some value.  Again thanks for a magnificent job.  And I wish I could have met Dasha about 40 years ago. She is exceptional in spades. 

Cheers, Desperado

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