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enderland07

Concerns with submarine implementation (with suggested fixes)

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I don't expect this post is going to be popular. Nor do I really expect WG to change anything, if the CV rework is any indication once these changes make it to live it's basically "done." Way too much development effort invested for these not to show up in randoms after some spreadsheet analysis.

Having played a bunch in the sub randoms mode.. here we go.

Objection One - RIP concealment, again

Submarines break gameplay in a similar way that CVs do, by continuing the crusade against concealment as a gameplay mechanic.

Subs hard counter their "counter" (destroyers) as currently implemented by continuing the destruction of concealment-meta. This happens for at least two reasons:

  • Submarine spotting is insanely strong vs destroyers. Any competent team can just kill a destroyer that is trying to counter a sub, because even in smoke a DD can be hard outspotted by submarines
  • Submarines can just "lol" to depth charges by diving deep and still hard spotting the destroyer, where they cannot even be spotted in return

This practically means that destroyer players will end up dying even faster than before - at least currently your concealment means if you "face spot" another dd, your team can support you. But a semi-competent sub will be able to hard counter you. Especially at higher tiers where cruiser DPM is high and accurate.

It's ironic that the ship class that is designed to counter subs is actually the most hard countered by them.

Solution possibilities:

  • Make it so that unless a submarine is spotting while vulnerable to HE fire, the ships only render on minimap. A destroyer that is hard spotted by a sub 80m deep will render on minimap but until it is vulnerable to HE, the destroyer is not visible outside the minimap
    • While you're at it, make CV plane spotting similar, unless planes are very close it only results in minimap spotting...
  • Give all ships the ability to auto detect subs underwater within a radius if they are moving at 1/4 speed or less, regardless of sub depth

Objection Two - Game endgame is going to be even more drawn out

Ever have fun waiting for a CV vs CV game to end as neither can kill each other?

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! 

Just imagine how painful endgame is going to be with CVs and subs alive at the end of the game. Any game like this is going to just suck for everyone.

Or if a team has just a sub remaining and they just dive/deep dive. 

This isn't fun right now with CVs and submarines will make this even worse. Unfortunately I have no good solutions for this as it's a fundamental attribute to subs.

Objection Three - Homing torps are going to be abused by good players and failed by potatoes

For fun, I've been experimenting with trying to dodge homing torps in ships that do not have hydro/depth charges. It's... not a fun experience. In fact, it's nearly impossible and you are relying on the sub player to potato.

The mechanics here are going to be heavily abused by decent players and be a massive negative playing experience for everyone else. Particularly because not only do the torpedoes home, but they convert to citadel damage as a result.

Solution possibilities:

  • Slightly increase alpha on torpedoes and remove the citadel aspect from submarine torpedoes entirely
  • Provide some sort of counterplay option for surface ships other than "hope submarine player is bad"

Objection Four - Many ships have zero counterplay options

Many of you have read my post on why the CV rework is irritating in that you really can't counterplay CVs and are at their mercy?

WG said, "hold my beer" and has now given a class that has even less counterplay as in, literally nothing you can do. If you are a battleship player in a 1v1 vs a submarine, you just.. die a painful death. Maybe hope the submarine surfaces next to you for some reason so you can blap it. 

Solution possibilities:

  • I don't even know what to do here. It seems the class is basically by-design intended to be what many destroyer players have always wanted - an uncounterable torp launching machine.
  • Maybe make it so that subs cannot submerge and dodge HE nearly instantly?

Objection Five - Counterplay relies on teamwork in a game which... does not have great teamwork

Related to the previous objection, one of the main gameplay aspects to submarines is a team effectively has to use teamwork to counterplay submarines. Your team's destroyers are effectively your only real counter to average/above average submarine players. Keep in mind how many ships have no counterplay options at all - you are basically at the mercy of a class that is already commonly considered unreliable (destroyers) to survive until later game when they can actually hurt subs.

This is a big mistake in my opinion because teamwork is not strong enough in this game for this type of thing to happen. What is far more likely is to make steamrolls even more common, particularly once submarine players figure out how to play, because competent ones will be able to hard counter the enemy destroyers.

Solution possibilities:

  • Ships other than just light cruisers/dds need some sort of counterplay option other than "just dodge"

-----

Anyways, that's some of my thoughts that I hope are considered. Ultimately I think it's a lost cause as this amount of effort on the part of WG nearly guarantees minimal changes to how submarines are launched in the main game but... well, hopefully there's some reconsideration.

Edited by enderland07
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I think your concerns are unfounded. WG has a long track record of adapting to gameplay issues and trying to secure a good gaming experience for everyone. The CV rework is a good example; I am confident WG will keep up the good work with sub implementation as well.

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1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

I think your concerns are unfounded. WG has a long track record of adapting to gameplay issues and trying to secure a good gaming experience for everyone. The CV rework is a good example; I am confident WG will keep up the good work with sub implementation as well.

Kislyi is going to visit your house and gift you a dozen Red Roses and lifetime premium for that lol fest!

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1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

I think your concerns are unfounded. WG has a long track record of adapting to gameplay issues and trying to secure a good gaming experience for everyone. The CV rework is a good example; I am confident WG will keep up the good work with sub implementation as well.

Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall WG listening to the player base on a regular basis on their feedback and ensuring they didn't release horribly broken content which was obviously problematic and bad for the game.

The listened and did the right thing and fixed their mistakes before people abused them! I almost forgot that alternative reality.

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Just now, warheart1992 said:

I think your concerns are unfounded. WG has a long track record of adapting to gameplay issues and trying to secure a good gaming experience for everyone. The CV rework is a good example; I am confident WG will keep up the good work with sub implementation as well.

 

iZu2bn22brI87apf6cxooAJycBjcbD2jQll7Zl5m.gif

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9 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall WG listening to the player base on a regular basis on their feedback and ensuring they didn't release horribly broken content which was obviously problematic and bad for the game.

The listened and did the right thing and fixed their mistakes before people abused them! I almost forgot that alternative reality.

Remember Puerto Rico!!!

 

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24 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

Kislyi is going to visit your house and gift you a dozen Red Roses and lifetime premium for that lol fest!

AND a lifetime pass to GILLIGAN'S ISLAND as well...good post!

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2 minutes ago, Neko_Ship_Akashi said:

Subs are completely useless, you're exaggerating. 

Thank you for the well thoughout contribution!

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I believe they should just keep submarines in their own game mode like they currently have it set up in this update.

Then again they should also do this with CVs, but something tells me no one would ever play that mode.

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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

I don't expect this post is going to be popular. Nor do I really expect WG to change anything, if the CV rework is any indication once these changes make it to live it's basically "done." Way too much development effort invested for these not to show up in randoms after some spreadsheet analysis.

Having played a bunch in the sub randoms mode.. here we go.

Objection One - RIP concealment, again

 

Objection Two - Game endgame is going to be even more drawn out

 

Objection Three - Homing torps are going to be abused by good players and failed by potatoes

 

Objection Four - Many ships have zero counterplay options

 

Objection Five - Counterplay relies on teamwork in a game which... does not have great teamwork

 

Anyways, that's some of my thoughts that I hope are considered. Ultimately I think it's a lost cause as this amount of effort on the part of WG nearly guarantees minimal changes to how submarines are launched in the main game but... well, hopefully there's some reconsideration.

You've covered pretty much every point that I came up against in my experience yesterday.  Objection 1 and 5 are the biggest takeaways for me.  Objection 2 was also something that seemed very ironic to me as we often see a CV on one or both teams survive to the end of long battles.  Yesterday I saw several games end with only subs and CVs alive.  Objection 5 is intertangled with all of the former objections and will likely be the biggest inhibitor to solutions.  There are so many different scenarios to cover that a failure in any one area will be magnified in others.  The biggest one I see at this point pivots on your DD players.  They have to decide to screen subs (teamplay) or go solo.  Early on many DD players will want to attack subs...or ignore them.  If they attack, they will be a good counter to subs but give up much of their current role.  They will relegate themselves to being spotted for all of that time.  And subs aren't easy for DDs to just delete and move on to their former role.  Once they realize this, many DD players are going to actively avoid subs (solo play).  It adds a completely new dimension to DD play and DD play is already the most difficult ship to play well.

Imagine if you will, a single DD per side with one or more subs per side.  Your DD decides to avoid the sub and leave the rest of your team vulnerable to now the most stealthy ship in the game.  Or, your DD goes after the subs and gets perma-spotted for the rest of the red team to focus.  Add in a CV to focus the DD and it will be dead very quickly.

Of course it's early and without any changes by WG, the play and experience will involve as sub commanders become more experienced (and effective) and counterplays are discovered.

Edited by ClassicLib
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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall WG listening to the player base on a regular basis on their feedback and ensuring they didn't release horribly broken content which was obviously problematic and bad for the game.

The listened and did the right thing and fixed their mistakes before people abused them! I almost forgot that alternative reality.

By chance did everyone in that reality have a goatee?

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Out of all the game I've tested on Subs this one showed nearly all the flaws rolled into 1. And this game didn't even have a CV in it...

 

2125573454_Subsarestupid.thumb.png.01ddd36f5b2c1c5cf3ab3d7cf759f7bb.png

 

When your subs are all dead in the 1st 5 mins. Any surface ship on the opposing team is now in a constant almost unwinnable uphill fight. Leander, maybe one of the best T6 cruisers, with Hydro and smoke as great utilities is out spotted by subs (RPF does not seem to locate subs or at least subs under water) meaning you never know what direction they are even in. You then either try hunt them or run. If you run? why even bother loading into a game. Just exit to port, it's less painful. If you do hunt them, then the real "fun" begins. After locating the almost invisible ship you are taking constant fire from everything else. I mean having to fight a Spee, dodge BB shells and sub torps took everything I had just to stay alive never mind fight back. When you find the sub? You pray they cannot deep dive otherwise it's over. Your spotted, you get shot, your depth charges do minimal damage and it's over. You get lucky and you can drop? Great.... lets hang around the same square whilst being pounded from every angle... Then? Ohhh yeah, there is still more subs to spot and shells to dodge. 

 

We all know how frustrating it is to lose all the DD's 1st and early. Losing all the subs 1st and early is this amplified by a massive magnitude. I've seen CA's, BB's and CV's hunted down, never able to spot or fire back against their opponents. Bravo WG, Bravo....

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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

I don't expect this post is going to be popular. Nor do I really expect WG to change anything, if the CV rework is any indication once these changes make it to live it's basically "done." Way too much development effort invested for these not to show up in randoms after some spreadsheet analysis.

Having played a bunch in the sub randoms mode.. here we go.

Objection One - RIP concealment, again

Submarines break gameplay in a similar way that CVs do, by continuing the crusade against concealment as a gameplay mechanic.

Subs hard counter their "counter" (destroyers) as currently implemented by continuing the destruction of concealment-meta. This happens for at least two reasons:

  • Submarine spotting is insanely strong vs destroyers. Any competent team can just kill a destroyer that is trying to counter a sub, because even in smoke a DD can be hard outspotted by submarines
  • Submarines can just "lol" to depth charges by diving deep and still hard spotting the destroyer, where they cannot even be spotted in return

This practically means that destroyer players will end up dying even faster than before - at least currently your concealment means if you "face spot" another dd, your team can support you. But a semi-competent sub will be able to hard counter you. Especially at higher tiers where cruiser DPM is high and accurate.

It's ironic that the ship class that is designed to counter subs is actually the most hard countered by them.

Solution possibilities:

  • Make it so that unless a submarine is spotting while vulnerable to HE fire, the ships only render on minimap. A destroyer that is hard spotted by a sub 80m deep will render on minimap but until it is vulnerable to HE, the destroyer is not visible outside the minimap
    • While you're at it, make CV plane spotting similar, unless planes are very close it only results in minimap spotting...
  • Give all ships the ability to auto detect subs underwater within a radius if they are moving at 1/4 speed or less, regardless of sub depth

Objection Two - Game endgame is going to be even more drawn out

Ever have fun waiting for a CV vs CV game to end as neither can kill each other?

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! 

Just imagine how painful endgame is going to be with CVs and subs alive at the end of the game. Any game like this is going to just suck for everyone.

Or if a team has just a sub remaining and they just dive/deep dive. 

This isn't fun right now with CVs and submarines will make this even worse. Unfortunately I have no good solutions for this as it's a fundamental attribute to subs.

Objection Three - Homing torps are going to be abused by good players and failed by potatoes

For fun, I've been experimenting with trying to dodge homing torps in ships that do not have hydro/depth charges. It's... not a fun experience. In fact, it's nearly impossible and you are relying on the sub player to potato.

The mechanics here are going to be heavily abused by decent players and be a massive negative playing experience for everyone else. Particularly because not only do the torpedoes home, but they convert to citadel damage as a result.

Solution possibilities:

  • Slightly increase alpha on torpedoes and remove the citadel aspect from submarine torpedoes entirely
  • Provide some sort of counterplay option for surface ships other than "hope submarine player is bad"

Objection Four - Many ships have zero counterplay options

Many of you have read my post on why the CV rework is irritating in that you really can't counterplay CVs and are at their mercy?

WG said, "hold my beer" and has now given a class that has even less counterplay as in, literally nothing you can do. If you are a battleship player in a 1v1 vs a submarine, you just.. die a painful death. Maybe hope the submarine surfaces next to you for some reason so you can blap it. 

Solution possibilities:

  • I don't even know what to do here. It seems the class is basically by-design intended to be what many destroyer players have always wanted - an uncounterable torp launching machine.
  • Maybe make it so that subs cannot submerge and dodge HE nearly instantly?

Objection Five - Counterplay relies on teamwork in a game which... does not have great teamwork

Related to the previous objection, one of the main gameplay aspects to submarines is a team effectively has to use teamwork to counterplay submarines. Your team's destroyers are effectively your only real counter to average/above average submarine players. Keep in mind how many ships have no counterplay options at all - you are basically at the mercy of a class that is already commonly considered unreliable (destroyers) to survive until later game when they can actually hurt subs.

This is a big mistake in my opinion because teamwork is not strong enough in this game for this type of thing to happen. What is far more likely is to make steamrolls even more common, particularly once submarine players figure out how to play, because competent ones will be able to hard counter the enemy destroyers.

Solution possibilities:

  • Ships other than just light cruisers/dds need some sort of counterplay option other than "just dodge"

-----

Anyways, that's some of my thoughts that I hope are considered. Ultimately I think it's a lost cause as this amount of effort on the part of WG nearly guarantees minimal changes to how submarines are launched in the main game but... well, hopefully there's some reconsideration.

Honestly I think all of these objections will be met by the community thru META changes.

Edit: So objection three will be quite true at the beginning. I do not subscribe to the abuse description however.  

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16 minutes ago, ClassicLib said:

Of course it's early and without any changes by WG, the play and experience will involve as sub commanders become more experienced (and effective) and counterplays are discovered.

The reason I wrote this is that I expect these issues to get worse over time as people start understanding subs.

 

Just now, paradat said:

Honestly I think all of these objections will be met by the community thru META changes. 

Uh, what?

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

The reason I wrote this is that I expect these issues to get worse over time as people start understanding subs.

 

Uh, what?

If I get the time I will elaborate.

 

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Just now, paradat said:

If I get the time I will elaborate.

 

If I get the time I will refute it.

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Just now, enderland07 said:

If I get the time I will refute it.

LOL OK sounds good.  Well we can get Objection 3 out of the way first. I actually mostly agree. That gap will narrow as sub players on average get better at the ping mechanic and we get some good Sub guides up on youtube. Having said that in the early phases you are quite correct good players will do much better than potatoes as the skill gap will at first be quite wide.

 

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

If I get the time I will refute it.

Oh sweet summer child...

Just wait till they are part of Clan wars.

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Just wait till they are part of Clan wars.

Please don't post such offensive content, I don't want this thread locked :cap_look: 

Edited by enderland07
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4 minutes ago, paradat said:

LOL OK sounds good.  Well we can get Objection 3 out of the way first. I actually mostly agree. That gap will narrow as sub players on average get better at the ping mechanic and we get some good Sub guides up on youtube. Having said that in the early phases you are quite correct good players will do much better than potatoes as the skill gap will at first be quite wide.

 

You really think the players causing the skill gap on the low side watch youtube videos?

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Haven't had chance to play with or against but they don't sound like its fun for surface ships 

  Glad I didn't re up on Premium time last Christmas 

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10 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

 You really think the players causing the skill gap on the low side watch youtube videos?

The middle skill group does. At the moment most of us goodish players still suck at subs but we will get better. We will of course always have a skill gap. Those who stay in the bottom will very likely not play subs for very long or CV's for that matter. So yeah I think the skill gap will be at it's widest at the start but will narrow. 

So in my opinion if you never get very good at torping with subs you will very likely not play them very often. Like CV's Subs will be a fairly niche ship choice. Once everything settles down. It is way easier for a Potato player to find fun with BB's and CA's and will gravitate to the ore forgiving ship types. 

Good DD players will still rule the game but it will be interesting to see what impact good Sub players will have, players like you. 

I can not wait to explore establish and counter the new Meta. It is like a breath of fresh air for the game.

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Just now, paradat said:

The middle skill group does. At the moment most of us goodish players still suck at subs but we will get better. We will of course always have a skill gap. Those who stay in the bottom will very likely not play subs for very long or CV's for that matter. So yeah I think the skill gap will be at it's widest at the start but will narrow. 

So in my opinion if you never get very good at torping with subs you will very likely not play them very often. Like CV's Subs will be a fairly niche ship choice. Once everything settles down. It is way easier for a Potato player to find fun with BB's and CA's and will gravitate to the ore forgiving ship types. 

Good DD players will still rule the game but it will be interesting to see what impact good Sub players will have.

I can not wait to explore establish and counter the new Meta. It is like a breath of fresh air for the game.

This opinion is objectively false given how many terrible DD/CV players there are that keep clicking battle after hundreds of terrible battles.

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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

I don't expect this post is going to be popular. Nor do I really expect WG to change anything, if the CV rework is any indication once these changes make it to live it's basically "done." Way too much development effort invested for these not to show up in randoms after some spreadsheet analysis.

Having played a bunch in the sub randoms mode.. here we go.

Objection One - RIP concealment, again

Submarines break gameplay in a similar way that CVs do, by continuing the crusade against concealment as a gameplay mechanic.

Subs hard counter their "counter" (destroyers) as currently implemented by continuing the destruction of concealment-meta. This happens for at least two reasons:

  • Submarine spotting is insanely strong vs destroyers. Any competent team can just kill a destroyer that is trying to counter a sub, because even in smoke a DD can be hard outspotted by submarines
  • Submarines can just "lol" to depth charges by diving deep and still hard spotting the destroyer, where they cannot even be spotted in return

This practically means that destroyer players will end up dying even faster than before - at least currently your concealment means if you "face spot" another dd, your team can support you. But a semi-competent sub will be able to hard counter you. Especially at higher tiers where cruiser DPM is high and accurate.

It's ironic that the ship class that is designed to counter subs is actually the most hard countered by them.

Solution possibilities:

  • Make it so that unless a submarine is spotting while vulnerable to HE fire, the ships only render on minimap. A destroyer that is hard spotted by a sub 80m deep will render on minimap but until it is vulnerable to HE, the destroyer is not visible outside the minimap
    • While you're at it, make CV plane spotting similar, unless planes are very close it only results in minimap spotting...
  • Give all ships the ability to auto detect subs underwater within a radius if they are moving at 1/4 speed or less, regardless of sub depth

Objection Two - Game endgame is going to be even more drawn out

Ever have fun waiting for a CV vs CV game to end as neither can kill each other?

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! 

Just imagine how painful endgame is going to be with CVs and subs alive at the end of the game. Any game like this is going to just suck for everyone.

Or if a team has just a sub remaining and they just dive/deep dive. 

This isn't fun right now with CVs and submarines will make this even worse. Unfortunately I have no good solutions for this as it's a fundamental attribute to subs.

Objection Three - Homing torps are going to be abused by good players and failed by potatoes

For fun, I've been experimenting with trying to dodge homing torps in ships that do not have hydro/depth charges. It's... not a fun experience. In fact, it's nearly impossible and you are relying on the sub player to potato.

The mechanics here are going to be heavily abused by decent players and be a massive negative playing experience for everyone else. Particularly because not only do the torpedoes home, but they convert to citadel damage as a result.

Solution possibilities:

  • Slightly increase alpha on torpedoes and remove the citadel aspect from submarine torpedoes entirely
  • Provide some sort of counterplay option for surface ships other than "hope submarine player is bad"

Objection Four - Many ships have zero counterplay options

Many of you have read my post on why the CV rework is irritating in that you really can't counterplay CVs and are at their mercy?

WG said, "hold my beer" and has now given a class that has even less counterplay as in, literally nothing you can do. If you are a battleship player in a 1v1 vs a submarine, you just.. die a painful death. Maybe hope the submarine surfaces next to you for some reason so you can blap it. 

Solution possibilities:

  • I don't even know what to do here. It seems the class is basically by-design intended to be what many destroyer players have always wanted - an uncounterable torp launching machine.
  • Maybe make it so that subs cannot submerge and dodge HE nearly instantly?

Objection Five - Counterplay relies on teamwork in a game which... does not have great teamwork

Related to the previous objection, one of the main gameplay aspects to submarines is a team effectively has to use teamwork to counterplay submarines. Your team's destroyers are effectively your only real counter to average/above average submarine players. Keep in mind how many ships have no counterplay options at all - you are basically at the mercy of a class that is already commonly considered unreliable (destroyers) to survive until later game when they can actually hurt subs.

This is a big mistake in my opinion because teamwork is not strong enough in this game for this type of thing to happen. What is far more likely is to make steamrolls even more common, particularly once submarine players figure out how to play, because competent ones will be able to hard counter the enemy destroyers.

Solution possibilities:

  • Ships other than just light cruisers/dds need some sort of counterplay option other than "just dodge"

-----

Anyways, that's some of my thoughts that I hope are considered. Ultimately I think it's a lost cause as this amount of effort on the part of WG nearly guarantees minimal changes to how submarines are launched in the main game but... well, hopefully there's some reconsideration.

 

It's almost as if the foreseeable problems happened as foreseen.  

On the topic of spotting, it's almost as if WG deliberately wanted subs to have a huge spotting advantage, keep in mind that they removed the TASM1 upgrade from the game a couple months ago, which increased some parts of ship spotting such as automatic spotting increased from 2km to 3km, and refused to explain why they were removing it.  

On the topic of counterplay, several of us have been asking for ships with catapults to get an option to mount "scout bombers" since the "only DDs get counterplay" news came out last fall.   And we pointed out during PTS that the "submarines" were able to hover JUST below the depth where they could be hit with gunfire almost continuously, barely coming up just to attack.  

 

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