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PT, Increased HE penetration for German Destroyers

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wow. I like it.

At last they will have some utility, even if they will still struggle to punish red DD.

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3 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

wow. I like it.

At last they will have some utility, even if they will still struggle to punish red DD.

I have no problem punishing enemy destroyers with German DDs.  

The strong hydro makes them great ambush predators.

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Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
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Very good news for the German DDs. Especially the ones with 150mm guns which had been left behind by the recent IFHE changes and the German cruiser HE pen buff.

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I love German DDs. This is just adding more braindead DD HE to the mix. Weren't IJN gunboats enough? 

They could have gotten a bit improved smoke and better AP.

That HE pen increase is a solution, but a lazy one that will only lead to more annoyance at high tiers.

 

Edited by warheart1992

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WG actually doing a change that makes sense and has been asked for by a bulk of the community, what’s going on? Although TBH, I would’ve liked some form of AP buff, whether it be in pen to citadel cruisers reliably or shorter fuses and lower fuse arming threshold to use that AP on most DDs

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33 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Weren't IJN gunboats enough? 

For a start,  we're not exactly talking about introducing German Akizukis here. 

As someone who sees himself taking the Maass into co-op a lot and knows how often Tier 7 sees Tier 9 these days, I'll take every extra bit of penetration I can get.

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An awesome news, lol. :Smile_great::Smile_teethhappy:

Unfortunately... poor T-22, with her dinky 105mm guns, left behind... lel. :Smile_hiding:

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32 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

I have no problem punishing enemy destroyers with German DDs.  

The strong hydro makes them great ambush predators.

Yes, and no.

Z52 is good to punish bad player. But against good you will struggle. In term of HE dpm:

Z52: 135 000

Shimakaze: 134 805

Daring: 218 586

Gearing: 216 000

Harugumo: 240 000

Khab: 182 400

Thus, as long as the other DD do not give broadside and let you use AP, you he dpm makes you the prey instead of the hunter. I used her quite a lot in clan battle and stopped when I face too may player in Daring knowing how to angle.

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28 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Yes, and no.

Z52 is good to punish bad player. But against good you will struggle. In term of HE dpm:

Z52: 135 000

Shimakaze: 134 805

Daring: 218 586

Gearing: 216 000

Harugumo: 240 000

Khab: 182 400

Thus, as long as the other DD do not give broadside and let you use AP, you he dpm makes you the prey instead of the hunter. I used her quite a lot in clan battle and stopped when I face too may player in Daring knowing how to angle.

Fair enough.

But a good Z-52 player will also know better than to try to out trade other DD gunboats.  I find German DDs most effective when you can catch other DDs off-guard with hydro hiding behind islands or in smoke.

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I'd prefer they look at the AP fuse arming thresholds.

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

I'd prefer they look at the AP fuse arming thresholds.

Mofton, I think that a lot depends on who the intended targets of those German DD guns are meant to be.  Like @Y_Nagato correctly pointed out, German DD AP is great vs enemy DDs only so long as those target DDs don't angle.  And any DD driven by a decently good player will instantly angle his ship the moment he realizes that he's taking AP damage.   

OTOH, if this buff is aimed at German DDs shooting at larger target ships, I expect that the existing AP is already sufficient to penetrate non angled target ships and would probably still bounce or ricochet off of any angled heavy even if their AP was buffed.  The reality is that most DD AP is situational, and requires the DD to have nice flat broadside shots, usually against superstructures of BBs or well armored cruisers.

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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Yes, and no.

Z52 is good to punish bad player. But against good you will struggle. In term of HE dpm:

Z52: 135 000

Shimakaze: 134 805

Daring: 218 586

Gearing: 216 000

Harugumo: 240 000

Khab: 182 400

Thus, as long as the other DD do not give broadside and let you use AP, you he dpm makes you the prey instead of the hunter. I used her quite a lot in clan battle and stopped when I face too may player in Daring knowing how to angle.

Yeah, I used to play Z-52 a lot in random, ranked, and clan.  But I haven't played it in a while, since I have better options for dealing damage.  The torpedoes have a fast reload, but I once put all 8  into a damaged Montana and it survived.  Once upon a time it had lethal AA, but its effectiveness has been nerfed, since you can't really de-plane a CV anymore, and it's a fat target for rockets.  The AP will yield disappointing damage most of the time.  Not strong enough to seriously hurt cruisers or BBs, but gives overpens on DDs.  So you are stuck with HE that has lower base damage than the HE on most other DDs.  But if this change goes through, it might be worth trying again.  The hydro is nice, so maybe it will actually be useful if it's paired with useful guns.

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51 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

Yeah, I used to play Z-52 a lot in random, ranked, and clan.  But I haven't played it in a while, since I have better options for dealing damage.  The torpedoes have a fast reload, but I once put all 8  into a damaged Montana and it survived.  Once upon a time it had lethal AA, but its effectiveness has been nerfed, since you can't really de-plane a CV anymore, and it's a fat target for rockets.  The AP will yield disappointing damage most of the time.  Not strong enough to seriously hurt cruisers or BBs, but gives overpens on DDs.  So you are stuck with HE that has lower base damage than the HE on most other DDs.  But if this change goes through, it might be worth trying again.  The hydro is nice, so maybe it will actually be useful if it's paired with useful guns.

The torps work well, the issue is range: with the number of 12km radar ships in clan, 10.5 km make it hard to be use. And their small damage tend to make them a high risk low reward against soviet.

AP on broadside BB or Cruiser is fairly good. Used it extensively and got some nice damage when you target the softer part of the hull. But as soon as the target angle you miss the autobounce angle of Daring and must fall back to your poor HE. At least with this buff, your HE will do full damage to many parts of the enemy ships.

 

But that buff do not change anything for the DD vs DD action. Z52 have awesome hydro to hunt DD, but end up like the cop holding the flash light with no weapon.

 

A boost to the AP penetration angle (make it on par with Daring) would have been better imo.

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11 hours ago, Crucis said:

Mofton, I think that a lot depends on who the intended targets of those German DD guns are meant to be.  Like @Y_Nagato correctly pointed out, German DD AP is great vs enemy DDs only so long as those target DDs don't angle.  And any DD driven by a decently good player will instantly angle his ship the moment he realizes that he's taking AP damage.   

OTOH, if this buff is aimed at German DDs shooting at larger target ships, I expect that the existing AP is already sufficient to penetrate non angled target ships and would probably still bounce or ricochet off of any angled heavy even if their AP was buffed.  The reality is that most DD AP is situational, and requires the DD to have nice flat broadside shots, usually against superstructures of BBs or well armored cruisers.

German DD AP has two problems against other destroyers, firstly that it ricochets off angled ones, and secondly that it overpenetrates flat-broadside ones:

v6PDuvM.jpg

Against hulls there's a pretty broad zone where you won't arm the AP fuse and it's even worse against the thinner supperstructure armor (in fact I'm not sure if it can even pen normally).

If you improved (lowered) the AP fuse arming threshold you would get more damage in against broadsides.

 

The HE damage to allow yet more farming of larger ships is fairly boring in my view. Just drive Harugumo?

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The HE "buff" is nice but it does not address the major weakness of the German DDs.

Spoiler


Like others have stated, the problem is a combination of:
Concealment being average or slightly worse then average
Lack of "Gun power"/ "gun DPM"
Lack of torpedo range at higher tiers where 10~12km radar is prevalent
Ships size and...
... Sluggish handling, makes it near impossible to "dodge" incoming fire
"Weak" smoke consumable.
Only Z-52 has "Improved" 6km hydro the rest of the line has standard 4km ( tier 5~7 ) or 5km hydro ( tier 8~9 )

These weakness are most apparent form tier 7 to 9, because majority of DDs out spot and out gun them. (Edit: 5.5 km hydro would go a long way to improve these ships )

If I remember correctly, the formula for standard AP fuse arming threshold is: "Shell diameter" / 6
So the 128mm AP has a 21mm arming threshold
...  and 150mm AP has a 25mm arming threshold
That problem is illustrated rather well by @mofton 

I second the idea of: Reduce the fuse arming threshold of AP shells instead of "improving" HE shell penetration of German DDs.

There is no need to "invent" some special formula, just give them British Light Cruiser AP fuse threshold formula.
( That is 1/12 ~ 1/13 of the shell diameter )

Edited by Sammy_Small
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I'm perfectly fine with the KM DDs not being good at anti-DD work.  That gives them a specific role to play, rather than just "more of the same".

As such, AP against DDs doesn't need to be changed, nor does HE against DDs.  You have to play KM DDs to avoid gunfights with other DDs, except where you can use your hydro to advantage. That's good game design.

That said, as KM DDs are more anti-CA and anti-BB, having their HE be more effective is a GOOD thing.  Right now, practically all DDs (except the IJN gunboats) cause virtually no direct damage to BBs, and very little to CAs.  It's all "HE spam for fire".

It would be nice to see BBs more afraid of actually getting hit, and less emphasis on fire damage, from DDs.  Buffing the KM HE to /4 is absolutely the right thing to do here:  they can't cause large amounts of direct damage (their HE alpha is still bad), but they can now at least do SOME damage.

And all those bow-tanking RU BBs now DO have something to fear from a DD shooting at them.

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