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Clan Battles CVs aren't the only problem

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CVs should not be in Clan Battles I say this as a CV player.

IF WG wants to have clan battles with CVs then they should have MM ALWAYS match CV vs CV teams.

That said Clan Battles have been problematic for awhile now, CVs are just the latest problem. Clan battles have been having issues ever since the launch of the "special" tier X ships that are difficult to obtain. Stalingrad being the most obvious example of this, but all the Tier X Specials are so much more powerful than their tech tree counterparts.  

an example 

Team 1: Monty, 2 Des Moines, 2 Moskvas, 1 Henri IV, 1 Shima, 1 Daring.  solid team their little bit of everything

Team 2: Thunderer, 4 Stalins, 1 Smol, 2 Klebers (yes I know kleb isn't a "special" ship but they are the DD flavor of the moment)

now which team is most likely going to win this fight, team 2; 7 out of 10 times all things being equal on player skill

Any team that has to bring more then 1 rental vs team 2 would lose 9 times out 10 

So how do we fix this?

As I said above if WG wants CVs in clan battles easy fix set match maker to match CV vs CV

The bigger problem is the proliferation of the Tier X "special" ships.

Two solutions come to mind one good one bad.

First the bad make Tier X "specials" much easier to obtain I do not like this option those ships should be an achievement to obtain.

Second the good or at least better make clan battles only tech tree ships no specials for Tier X no premiums for any other tier at least this equalizes the playing field with a few outliers ( I am looking at you Kremlin and Kleber).

Also it may be time for several older ship lines to be looked at and buffed up American, German, and Japanese BBs (yes Yammy could use some help the only thing keeping her in play is her guns) American, German, and Japanese DDs, Japanese and German Cruisers.

WG should also take a long hard look at what the IFHE "rework?" has done to several ships especially premiums that people paid for and now have become severely nerfed (Atlanta, Flint, Belfast, Smolensk)

A good example is any of those first three find themselves uptiered to Tier IX games they are basically useless cause even with IFHE they cannot pen the enemy cruisers much less BBs.

Just Some thoughts would love to hear what others think 

 

 

Edited by Sbels
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6 minutes ago, Sbels said:

CVs should not be in Clan Battles I say this as a CV player.

IF WG wants to have clan battles with CVs then they should have MM ALWAYS match CV vs CV teams.

That said Clan Battles have been problematic for awhile now, CVs are just the latest problem. Clan battles have been having issues ever since the launch of the "special" tier X ships that are difficult to obtain. Stalingrad being the most obvious example of this, but all the Tier X Specials are so much more powerful than their tech tree counterparts.  

an example 

Team 1: Monty, 2 Des Moines, 2 Moskvas, 1 Henri IV, 1 Shima, 1 Daring.  solid team their little bit of everything

Team 2: Thunderer, 4 Stalins, 1 Smol, 2 Klebers (yes I know kleb isn't a "special" ship but they are the DD flavor of the moment)

now which team is most likely going to win this fight, team 2; 7 out of 10 times all things being equal on player skill

Any team that has to bring more then 1 rental vs team 2 would lose 9 times out 10 

So how do we fix this?

As I said above if WG wants CVs in clan battles easy fix set match maker to match CV vs CV

The bigger problem of the proliferation of the Tier X "special" ships.

Two solutions come to mind one good one bad.

First the bad make Tier X "specials" much easier to obtain I do not like this option those ships should be an achievement to obtain.

Second the good or at least better make clan battles only tech tree ships no specials for Tier X no premiums for any other tier at least this equalizes the playing field with a few outliers ( I am looking at you Kremlin and Kleber).

Also it may be time for several older ship lines to be looked at and buffed up American, German, and Japanese BBs (yes Yammy could use some help the only thing keeping her in play is her guns) American, German, and Japanese DDs, Japanese and German Cruisers.

WG should also take a long hard look at what the IFHE "rework?" has done to several ships especially premiums that people paid for and now have become severely nerfed (Atlanta, Flint, Belfast, Smolensk)

A good example is any of those first three find themselves uptiered to Tier IX games they are basically useless cause even with IFHE they cannot pen the enemy cruisers much less BBs.

Just Some thoughts would love to hear what others think 

 

 

Good points except for the whole "special ships for everyone" nonsense. Reads too much like first place trophies for everyone. I think special ships should take a good bit of effort to acquire. Everyone should have the ability to get them but it will be harder for some than others. I am not in favor of lowering the bars. I'm fine with IFHE nerf.

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4 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

First the bad make Tier X "specials" much easier to obtain I do not like this option those ships should be an achievement to obtain.

 

4 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Good points except for the whole "special ships for everyone" nonsense. Reads too much like first place trophies for everyone. I think special ships should take a good bit of effort to acquire. Everyone should have the ability to get them but it will be harder for some than others. I am not in favor of lowering the bars. I'm fine with IFHE nerf.

I actually said I thought this was a bad idea just a way to level the playing field

But thank you for commenting I am just trying to be helpful and provide ideas that may work

Edited by Sbels

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Thunderer is not that better than Montana for clan battle. BB should push and tank in CB, not stay strictly in the back, and Thunderer is not that great at tanking.

Smolensk is not great for CB neither. Yeah sure she can rain HE, but she is more fragile than a cup of tea in a Churchill tank moving. And she lack utility: I prefer to have Minotaur over her everyday of the week.tenor.gif.11d269f9ca4487128bade095efdf17d3.gif

Stalingrad is not stricly better than Moskva. Her AP is god like, yes, but she cannot over match CA and her HE is some of the worst in the game, while Moskva have better HE and, if I am not mistaken, a better ice breaker armor making her a tad more tanky against BB. 

Kleber is fast and can kill DD, yes. But she do not have smoke nor the capacity to effectively stealth torps, let alone do so outside of radar range.

 

And you focus on the ''good'' special ships. Sommers should be in it, but she is not OP. Yoshino? Not OP by a mile. Bourgogne? Not Op by a mile. Ohio? Maybe slightly better than Montana for CB, but not that OP. 

 

Meanwhile you go access in tech tree to monsters like Venezia, Kremlin..... All in all, I do not think that giving more special ships is a solution. Yes some old line should be looked at (especially German DD) but outside of that I do not follow your point.

Edited by Y_Nagato
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47 minutes ago, Sbels said:

IF WG wants to have clan battles with CVs then they should have MM ALWAYS match CV vs CV teams

I 100% agree they (CV'S) shouldn't be in clan battles. If cv teams only faced cv teams, then no one would play cv.

47 minutes ago, Sbels said:

Stalingrad being the most obvious example of this, but all the Tier X Specials are so much more powerful than their tech tree counterparts.

Des moines hard counters any stalingrad push and has been the most consistent comp ship prior to this season. Besides the meme stalingrad wall, most ~hurricane comp teams consist of a very healthy mix of common tech tree ships. Kremlin, Yamato, Des moines, moskva, hindenburg, shima, and daring are all extremely good comp ships in seasons past. 

 

Edited by eagle_lance
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Can't talk about the higher leagues, but in the Squall and Gale, CVs have been more of a nuisance that a game changer. Good CV players are rare down in the lower leagues, we mostly see a BB led team. There have been only a couple of games this season where the CV player made a real difference. Most of the time they can be a pest, but cannot carry a team.

The game changers are the Kremlins, Stalingrads, Venezias and Klebers. These are either Russian or fairly new tech tree ships that define the terms power creep and Russian Bias. In the hands of most players, they are decisive and very hard to counter with the DMs, Montanas and Shimmys. WGees idea of "balance" leaves a lot to be desired.   

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1 hour ago, eagle_lance said:

I 100% agree they (CV'S) shouldn't be in clan battles. If cv teams only faced cv teams, then no one would play cv.

......................................

 

So so true. 

I think in order to get a broader mix of ships into clan battles WG should put a hard limit not just on ship type (BB at 1 for instance) but also a hard limit on the number of a specific ship a team can use (maybe just 1 or at most 2 of any specific cruiser or any specific DD).  This would eliminate the endless comps of 4 to 6 Venezias for instance.  That way each battle would see a much wider range of ship comps than we see today and make for more interesting choices and battles imo.

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I dont really think CV is an issue in itself.

Rather the problem is the power creep. Each new line seems like it's trying to be unique by having the best gimmick.

What CV should have brought to the meta was more use of ships like Minotaur and Worcester but due to ships like Stalingrad and Venezia, those ships are too much of a risk to bring in all but the best players hands.

I also believe a hard limit on any particular ship might be a viable answer. Sure, playing and facing all Venezia is bad but it also sucked facing 4 Klebers racing around at 55 knots.

I dont think the addition of Nevsky or Peter Pan are going to help either for the next season.

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1 minute ago, Skuggsja said:

What CV should have brought to the meta was more use of ships like Minotaur and Worcester but due to ships like Stalingrad and Venezia, those ships are too much of a risk to bring in all but the best players hands.  

Huh?  CV spotting naturally encourages a meta dominated by long range open water gun fights.  It has nothing to do with power creep or the Stalingrad and Venezia being OP, and everything to do with the fact that the Minotaur and Worcester are just poorly suited to long range open water gun fights (not to mention the questionable effectiveness of AAA means they provide no value as AAA cruisers).  

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8 minutes ago, yashma said:

Huh?  CV spotting naturally encourages a meta dominated by long range open water gun fights.

That's questionable but obviously a possible outcome. Players didnt have to decide to play Venezia and Stalingrad at long range but that's what emerged.

Also, Henri, Yoshino, Hindenburg, and Goliath would be great additions to the long range gun fights but do to the effectiveness of SAP and Stalinum rounds, those four ships are not prominent.

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Just now, Skuggsja said:

Also, Henri, Yoshino, Hindenburg, and Goliath would be great additions to the long range gun fights but do to the effectiveness of SAP and Stalinum rounds, those four ships are not prominent.

It's almost exclusively because of the Venezia.  All four of those ships counter the Stalingrad, the problem is not only does the Venezia counter the Stalingrad, it also counters all of them as well.  Not to mention the Venezia's smoke gives it the most flexibility against CVs.  While I do think the Venezia is questionably balanced, the biggest issue is the combination of Venezia + CVs.  The Venezia was never anywhere near as dominant in past seasons without CVs.  

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1 hour ago, yashma said:

It's almost exclusively because of the Venezia.  All four of those ships counter the Stalingrad, the problem is not only does the Venezia counter the Stalingrad, it also counters all of them as well

So, power creep? 

1 hour ago, yashma said:

Not to mention the Venezia's smoke gives it the most flexibility against CVs.

That's true and false. It's very situational. In the moments Venezia is not smoking it's one of the easiest cruisers to spot with a CV due to its limited AA range. This trait actually makes it more susceptible to long range gun fire in that sense, while its maneuverability gives it an incredible counter.

1 hour ago, yashma said:

While I do think the Venezia is questionably balanced, the biggest issue is the combination of Venezia + CVs.  The Venezia was never anywhere near as dominant in past seasons without CVs.  

Again, I believe it's also one of Venezia's biggest weaknesses. CVs can easily spot the ship without engaging its AA bubble which makes it susceptible to long range fire.

I would also question if some DDs couldnt provide the same spotting of the ship. Being that the Italians dont get radar or hydro, some DDs could provide the same level of spotting. Of course without CV some DDs would be more prominent but the meta could still exist to an extent as Stalingrad, Moskva, and the future Peter Pan could all provide 12km radar.

The answer might also be to answer destroyers with other destroyers, one of the most prominent being Kleber because of its ability to hard counter other DDs. That of course would lead us back into the realm of power creep with newer and newer ships constantly pushing past their predecessors in power. 

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of all the premium and hard to get T10 ships, IMO, only Stalingrad is desirable in the current and past metas.

Long range, 50mm plating in key areas and massive HP pool are the most important aspects in CB.

 

There's zero reason to bring a BB over the 25500 CV and if you are going to bring a BB, you should bring Kremlin, since it's stupidly tanky and has just enough range to not get too far in front.

Edited by MrDeaf

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3 hours ago, yashma said:

Huh?  CV spotting naturally encourages a meta dominated by long range open water gun fights.  It has nothing to do with power creep or the Stalingrad and Venezia being OP, and everything to do with the fact that the Minotaur and Worcester are just poorly suited to long range open water gun fights (not to mention the questionable effectiveness of AAA means they provide no value as AAA cruisers).  

I love playing my Worcester long range open water and do very well with it.  Venzia just hit harder more consistently especially now with the IFHE change

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4 hours ago, TadpoleFishTaco said:

Didn't Goliath come out after Venezia? :fish_book:

Admittedly, both the British CAs and the Pan European DDs seem to have avoided the power creep slide, at least for the most part. I should have maybe phrased it differently.

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The reason why the venezia is dominating this season and not the past 2 seasons comes mostly down to its shell type and its concealment. Venezia on its own has trouble self spotting and doing damage. This is due to the high velocity shells and how sap actually works. Normally sap comes in at angles that can be autobounced. At ranges of 16 to 17km they start to arc down and will hit the deck of opposing ships. With a pen of 54mm, any ship that does not have deck armor of 54mm or higher will get heavily penned (only 2 surface ships at t10 have this and none of them are cruisers). So the venezia excels at doing large chunks of damage at long ranges. With a cv to do all the spotting, venezia's can do what they do best. Farm from long range. Venezia's also have spaced armor which makes them very difficult to reliably citadel from long range. The spaced armor means an ap shell has to go through 2 armor checks. Even though venezia's air spotting is very poor (8km), they have decent enough aa when paired with a fighter to at least prevent a second strike or even heavily mitigate a first strike. The venezia also has a very tight turning circle and when paired with something like the propulsion upgrade, makes it very difficult to hit at long ranges. So not only is it difficult to hit, there's a good chance that when you hit it, you'll do minimal damage. I haven't even mentioned the fuel smoke but its essentially a get out of jail free card or very commonly used to secure caps. The venezia isn't overpowered but this season is the perfect setting for the venezia to dominate. 

Edited by eagle_lance
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