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Col_Nasty

This prob won't work but......

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Can we have an actual adult conversation about something that has to do with CVs without it turning into a childish back and forth? 

I am told NO but I will try.

I personally do not play them as I much prefer actual flight SIMS to the way you fly and attack in this game.  A couple of years ago I suggested a way to use planes like we did back in the day.. actually stick and rudder, dogfights , bombers and torp planes, each manned by a Pilot. Now THAT would be exciting.  

Have to go back to the CV to land and reload etc  ( or circle )  we all knwo it is technically possible becasue we did it back in the 90s even with tanks running around at the same time.

That said.  

I'm asking CV drivers as I thought of this myself as I played.  It's far too easy for me to park my CV safely, be smart and move up late game and finish off all of the weak ships who by now have lo health.. most of their AA destroyed in Battles with surface ships while my CV is at full health.

Good CV drivers know this. they also know how to dodge AA while they spot..that's all fair.  To a Point.

One this we ALL have to agree on.. in the VAST majority of games the last ship killed or the last ship to be alive is the CV.  

Since I play CA BBs and DDs  and actually listen to people beyond the salt and perceived whines , I do knwo one thing that fuels the feelings about CV's and that is how deflated you feel after 19 minutes of nail biting Battle , having a game of your life.. nearing the win and here they come.  A Full Health CV , your out of heals and AA shot to hell and you are dead in 3 passes in your BB..ONE if you are somehow alive in your DD.

I just left a game like that. we had it won.  Then the CV came , and in less than a couple of minutes finished me in my Thunderer and the MASS I was working with out like it was nothing.

it was one of those fight where BOTH teams were ON FIRE!!  One of those that you would always remember.

Out of everything.. barely alive , timer so close it hurts , both teams played their hearts out.

FULL health CV shows up and ends it in the last 2 mins takes out 3 lo health ships for the win.

GREAT GAME! But empty.

In what way would CV drivers feel is fair to share some of the SURFACE ship risk like the rest of us?  Can you think of a way without this turning into the usual kiddie name calling ( both ways ) ?

I am actually curious.  If NO then it makes me feel like people KNOW what advantage they have that may be a little unfair.  I'm really interested to hear actual opinions.  My vote is , the reason I don't play CVs is I thought they were too easy. ( sorry but that is it ) They belong in the game like every other ship but there has to be more risk in playing one , not saying make them easy to kill BUT not quite so easy to stay 100% every match that's all.

Lets see how long this lasts.

 

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Wow just like WWII planes sink battleships without escorts....

Maybe trying to keep your escorts alive will save you?

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I'm skeptical. Something about a dead horse... Sprinkle the corpse with 11 herbs and spices including lack of perspective, misinformation, terrible anechdotes, down talking, shout downs, personal attacks, some stat shamming and, the real "issue" with 12 or so forum visitors, selfish interests reframed as bad/good for the game. 

That said, once more into the breach...

Carriers are part of the game. Always have been. Always will be. Every mode and almost every tier sees them. The game has changed a lot. It will continue. Carriers have changed a lot. They may well change a little more. That's all a rational person can say with any certainty. 

Million dollar ship type rework isn't going anywhere either. Minor tweaks and adjustments is where the discussion should focus with a moderate addition or two to game mechanics. Nothing radical or breaking one way or the other.

Maybe a small nerf to spotting, a decent nerf to rocket damage. Or, maybe a limitation to sortie time with a countdown timer. Maybe a range limitation on how far aircraft can operate from the carrier, say 16-20km. Maybe increase the spotting distance of the carrier when aircraft take off or land. Maybe reduce aircraft health more in lower tiers. Maybe bake in defensive fire consumable for all DD. Maybe a mix-and-match of a few ideas.

The health of a carrier, as things are, is irrelevant. Concern is solely on whether the carrier alive or dead because dead CV can't launch planes.

What is relevant is how quickly, consistently and efficiently your team is able to smash the enemy planes. The Carrier is the weakest ship in the game, hands down, when it's planes are destroyed. On the other hand if a carrier has lots of planes left at end of game then your remaining ships may be screwed. This is determined based on whether or not their tactics or distances are favorable for survival.

Your greatest weakness against a carrier is being alone. Its a position similar to being broadside to a Sinop in a Nurnburg or trying to fight a Kagero in a Colorado. Sometimes you get the bull, sometimes you get the horns. 

Edited by thebigblue
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51 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Minor tweaks and adjustments is where the discussion should focus with a moderate addition or two to game mechanics. Nothing radical or breaking one way or the other.

I broke the mold just yesterday actually...started a thread about damaged (not dead...on zombie AA suggested) AA being repairable & not 1 comment (either for or against CVs) showed up...just a dozen or so comments all on the subject giving different suggestion w/out any drama whatsoever.

Wish I knew how to add the thread from my phone for an example but unfortunately I'm not that techish.

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2 hours ago, thebigblue said:

What is relevant is how quickly, consistently and efficiently your team is able to deplane the enemy carrier. The Carrier is the weakest ship in the game, hands down, when it's planes are taken away. On the other hand if a carrier has lots of planes left at end of game then your remaining ships may be screwed. This is determined based on whether or not their tactics or distances are favorable for survival.

Your greatest weakness against a carrier is being alone.

To the  points.  Been here for about a year and a half.  I have never heard or seen a plane run out of planes. Please show me some stats on how often that happens please. ( not sure if you are one of those spreadsheet guys but maybe one will read the request. ) 

The second point ( not yours, just the snarky kid I was expecting ) assumes FAR too much and in this instance is 100% incorrect.  People love to use the old line of don't be alone or it's your own fault. well that is an easy and far too easy a dodge.

The MASS and I were WELL within each others Bubbles.  The Cv was able to torp and rocket us with impunity with AA going 100% but far fewer guns alive )  The point often ignored on purpose or accident is SHIPS LOSE THEIR AA. That is why 2 BBs with GOOD AA within 3 km of each other couldn't defend themselves using Boosted AA and Priority sector. 

This could be another reason why we have such passive play?  Why fight your heart out and take all the damage for the team when in the end you will be helpless?

There was a thread that people broke their necks ignoring just a day or so ago about AA Healing.  No one wants to talk about that.

Like I said this was an experiment and I see it failed. Only subtle insults but no one seems to want to talk past the usual points.

Thanks for responding at least and not just being another anon silly emoticon user.

I for one won't be talking about CVs anymore.  I will just bask in the CV threads complaining about my Friesland and Halland etc. because,  yeah.. they CAN defend themselves and they obviously shouldn't have THAT right.

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4 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Can we have an actual adult conversation about something that has to do with CVs without it turning into a childish back and forth? 

I am told NO but I will try.

I personally do not play them as I much prefer actual flight SIMS to the way you fly and attack in this game.  A couple of years ago I suggested a way to use planes like we did back in the day.. actually stick and rudder, dogfights , bombers and torp planes, each manned by a Pilot. Now THAT would be exciting.  

Have to go back to the CV to land and reload etc  ( or circle )  we all knwo it is technically possible becasue we did it back in the 90s even with tanks running around at the same time.

That said.  

I'm asking CV drivers as I thought of this myself as I played.  It's far too easy for me to park my CV safely, be smart and move up late game and finish off all of the weak ships who by now have lo health.. most of their AA destroyed in Battles with surface ships while my CV is at full health.

Good CV drivers know this. they also know how to dodge AA while they spot..that's all fair.  To a Point.

One this we ALL have to agree on.. in the VAST majority of games the last ship killed or the last ship to be alive is the CV.  

Since I play CA BBs and DDs  and actually listen to people beyond the salt and perceived whines , I do knwo one thing that fuels the feelings about CV's and that is how deflated you feel after 19 minutes of nail biting Battle , having a game of your life.. nearing the win and here they come.  A Full Health CV , your out of heals and AA shot to hell and you are dead in 3 passes in your BB..ONE if you are somehow alive in your DD.

I just left a game like that. we had it won.  Then the CV came , and in less than a couple of minutes finished me in my Thunderer and the MASS I was working with out like it was nothing.

it was one of those fight where BOTH teams were ON FIRE!!  One of those that you would always remember.

Out of everything.. barely alive , timer so close it hurts , both teams played their hearts out.

FULL health CV shows up and ends it in the last 2 mins takes out 3 lo health ships for the win.

GREAT GAME! But empty.

In what way would CV drivers feel is fair to share some of the SURFACE ship risk like the rest of us?  Can you think of a way without this turning into the usual kiddie name calling ( both ways ) ?

I am actually curious.  If NO then it makes me feel like people KNOW what advantage they have that may be a little unfair.  I'm really interested to hear actual opinions.  My vote is , the reason I don't play CVs is I thought they were too easy. ( sorry but that is it ) They belong in the game like every other ship but there has to be more risk in playing one , not saying make them easy to kill BUT not quite so easy to stay 100% every match that's all.

Lets see how long this lasts.

 

First.  If you dont play them then cannot have an opinion on how easy or not it is.  You can say how easy it is and how aa and flak never works then you relise its not easy.

2. Both sides have a cv.

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1 hour ago, Col_Nasty said:

To the  points.  Been here for about a year and a half.  I have never heard or seen a plane run out of planes. Please show me some stats on how often that happens please. ( not sure if you are one of those spreadsheet guys but maybe one will read the request. ) 

The second point ( not yours, just the snarky kid I was expecting ) assumes FAR too much and in this instance is 100% incorrect.  People love to use the old line of don't be alone or it's your own fault. well that is an easy and far too easy a dodge.

The MASS and I were WELL within each others Bubbles.  The Cv was able to torp and rocket us with impunity with AA going 100% but far fewer guns alive )  The point often ignored on purpose or accident is SHIPS LOSE THEIR AA. That is why 2 BBs with GOOD AA within 3 km of each other couldn't defend themselves using Boosted AA and Priority sector. 

This could be another reason why we have such passive play?  Why fight your heart out and take all the damage for the team when in the end you will be helpless?

There was a thread that people broke their necks ignoring just a day or so ago about AA Healing.  No one wants to talk about that.

Like I said this was an experiment and I see it failed. Only subtle insults but no one seems to want to talk past the usual points.

Thanks for responding at least and not just being another anon silly emoticon user.

I for one won't be talking about CVs anymore.  I will just bask in the CV threads complaining about my Friesland and Halland etc. because,  yeah.. they CAN defend themselves and they obviously shouldn't have THAT right.

your right.  I never loss a plane ever.  No matter how many shipps and even 2 teirs up I have never lost a single plane.  I just got around and dont even think about it.

Your response is so over the top that it cannot be beloved.  So many storys that are flat out lies makes the CV hayers just that haters.

It make no sents to lie.

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13 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

In what way would CV drivers feel is fair to share some of the SURFACE ship risk like the rest of us?

I have sunk carriers in mid-game with a destroyer and been sunk by destroyers and cruisers well before the end of the battle. If you position far forward in a CV and your team misplays, you die. If you stay in the centre and your team lemmings to the edges and an enemy DD sneaks through, you die. This has happened to me time and again, which explains why my tendency in the last 12 months has been to hang relatively far back. That surface ship risk you talk about is what drives CV players to stay back, but even that doesn't always save them. 

The spotting that a carrier provides is of absolutely no value without the willingness and ability of the surface ships to respond to the information you're providing (including explicit F3 calls for gunfire). In the absence of that, you can spot all you want and it's not going to make a difference. IMHO a team which can't and doesn't take advantage of a carrier's spotting tends to be a team that would have lost anyway if the carriers hadn't been there. If they won't shoot or can't shoot straight, they're going to die - and shortly thereafter, so are you because your ability to guarantee a one-shot kill on a reasonably healthy ship went away with the rework.

10 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

I will just bask in the CV threads complaining about my Friesland and Halland etc. because,  yeah.. they CAN defend themselves and they obviously shouldn't have THAT right.

The only problem I have with the Halland is that she seems disproportionately strong for the number of guns she has. It doesn't seem right that I can lose more planes to an AA destroyer in less time than to a Tier 10 BB with many times the number of gun barrels. Maybe that's an indirect call to buff battleship AA, and you can read it as that if you want; but if a BB is "supposed" to be X good at knocking down aircraft, then the Halland ought to be less good. Which you change, I don't care. Friesland was sold as an AA monster from the start and everybody knows it, but Halland's strength is both surprising and frightful.

Do I object to losing the aircraft? No. Lesson learned; that ship is a freakin' beast, and T8 CVs need to keep their rocket planes and bombers away (Enter at your own risk, and all that) if they give a damn about their pixel pilots.

Of course some people don't, and then you wonder what the pilots have to say about it...

 

 

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10 hours ago, jags_domain said:

2. Both sides have a cv.

So.  The answer is that both sides have an OP ship so its ok.  The solution to an unbalanced ship should never be another unbalanced ship.  Just because both teams have one doesn't make it better for all the other players in the game.

 

1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The spotting that a carrier provides is of absolutely no value without the willingness and ability of the surface ships to respond to the information you're providing (including explicit F3 calls for gunfire). In the absence of that, you can spot all you want and it's not going to make a difference. IMHO a team which can't and doesn't take advantage of a carrier's spotting tends to be a team that would have lost anyway if the carriers hadn't been there. 

But, in many cases, the team could have focus fired all the spotted ships and in a close game where both CVs were spotting.  The better team may have outgunned the other, leaving a ship advantage, only to have it taken away by the lone remaining CV against pretty powerful ships that couldn't defend themselves against the planes.  It happens.  I've seen it happen against my teams, and I've seen my team do it to other teams.  It balances out in the win column, but it doesn't balance out in the satisfaction column. 

 

For game balance, there needs to be a direct correlation between damage done to the planes and the damage done to the actual carrier, because players need to feel they are having an effect on the ship that is attacking them.  As a balance measure, the planes could be given more alpha strike capability to offset them being in more danger.   

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