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jason199506

ship server stat on rank so far, and the hate on belfast

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was discussing ships to use for ranked with other people, so looked up all 4 server stats for this ranked season

image.png.0d58611e6f4b3a90070ae6355d0a77fd.png

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image.png.8effb3e0d71e161bf4fea1c5a1d2805d.png

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Z39>belfast for NA and RU

belfast>Z39 for SEA and EU

so i think i can say they are about equally powerful

 

now, my question is why do i see threads after threads of complaining about the belfast, but never one about Z39?

do people actually know what belfast stats mean and genuinely think it is overpowered? or is people just hating belfast because everyone says it's broken so it must be broken?

 

im just really curious

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You're basing your conclusion on bad data and false premise. Win rate and damage done is irrelevant. You can't measure the effectiveness of smoke/radar/dps with the above stats.

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2 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

You're basing your conclusion on bad data and false premise. Win rate and damage done is irrelevant. You can't measure the effectiveness of smoke/radar/dps with the above stats.

damage done is irrelevant i agree

but for ranked mode, win rate is everything

(i am not a believer of reaching rank 1 by saving star)

 

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I would conclude, everyone (regardless of skill level) will be using the payfest... In game reality, CL are useless depending on the fleet make up of a match.

So, stats dont reveal the whole picture. Stats only shown what a ship has done... NOW, it doesn't say in great detail, as to how...

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5 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

You're basing your conclusion on bad data and false premise. Win rate and damage done is irrelevant. You can't measure the effectiveness of smoke/radar/dps with the above stats.

Win rate is the only data you need.

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The stats are skewed somewhat for Belfast, as she hasn't been available for an awefully long time, ergo - anybody playing her likely has quite a bit of experience to draw on.

I believe they would be a fair bit lower if she was still available for purchase today.

The radar she brings can't be under estimated, though - especially on maps as small as this season features.  I'm doing well in Indy, despite the fact that I don't top the board often in her.  Hydro to spot torps and radar to spot DDs for the rest of the team are the difference makers - even when I don't manage to get a shot off on any ship I reveal with radar - it's likely someone on the team will have angles.

Edited by ddoubletapp1

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11 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

now, my question is why do i see threads after threads of complaining about the belfast, but never one about Z39?

Ones in the premium shop and one is not. It's no secret that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Plus, the automatic hatred towards radar/smoke plays a large role too. 

 

Also her stats are very likely skewed as @ddoubletapp1 pointed out. That (slightly) skews the stats, as well as the average battle influence she has in a given game.

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7 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

You're basing your conclusion on bad data and false premise. Win rate and damage done is irrelevant. You can't measure the effectiveness of smoke/radar/dps with the above stats.

The only thing that matters in Ranked is winning and ranking out. That's literally the point of the mode. And thus win rate is the biggest indicator, it gives the influence of intangibles like smoke/radar/etc a measure.

The things that really skew it are ships that are no longer available to the general playerbase, because then not just anyone can play them. But WR still shows their efficiency in the mode.

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4 minutes ago, ddoubletapp1 said:

The stats are skewed somewhat for Belfast, as she hasn't been available for an awefully long time, ergo - anybody playing her likely has quite a bit of experience to draw on.

I believe they would be a fair bit lower if she was still available for purchase today.

so you're saying bel's stat appears stronger than what it actually is

 

well then so why is everyone complaining about it if "it is weaker than its stats show" and "its stats is the same as Z39"

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1 minute ago, jason199506 said:

so you're saying bel's stat appears stronger than what it actually is

 

well then so why is everyone complaining about it if "it is weaker than its stats show" and "its stats is the same as Z39"

I don't know about the second part - but Indo believe the average Belfast player would have as much influence in a match, regardless of which ship they chose for any particular match - just based upon the fact that they will (on average) have more experience and skill - based strictly on the number of matches, and length of time they've been playing the game.

The fact that the Belfast is a very good boat with a useful assortment of tools is icing on the cake.

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15 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I would conclude, everyone (regardless of skill level) will be using the payfest... In game reality, CL are useless depending on the fleet make up of a match.

i ranked with an atlanta. i dont feel useless at all

in fact i cycled through belfast flint atlanta, then finally settled with atlanta

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21 minutes ago, ddoubletapp1 said:

I'm doing well in Indy, despite the fact that I don't top the board often in her.

Have seen several Indianapolis'.

Either I'm too smart to get caught out, or I just haven't noticed; but I'm not sure I've seen anyone playing it actually use their radar... Same with Belfast, tbh.

7 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

I ranked with an atlanta. I dont feel useless at all.

For all some call Atlanta squishy; in good hands she is still a monster.

Her torps may be short ranged, but they can gut just about anything whose driver forgets they exist, and thinks they can bum-rush the squishy 127mm cruiser.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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Belfast is dang near useless when your dds yolo 5 min in. She can save a star though.

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30 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

Belfast is dang near useless when your dds yolo 5 min in. She can save a star though.

Absolutely true - she is a bit situational in that she needs spotting to make use of her smoke.

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1 hour ago, jason199506 said:

i ranked with an atlanta. i dont feel useless at all

in fact i cycled through belfast flint atlanta, then finally settled with atlanta

...Must try this.

 

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I have played my flint exclusively and have had a blast in her.  I have seen a lot of Belfasts out there but none were carrying any potato teams to a win.  Yeah they have a lot of tools but there are counters to them.  If I were to guess, I would say people blame that ship because they can't get one and it allows them to avoid the real cause of their poor play... themselves. 

Edited by HallaSnackbar

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2 hours ago, jason199506 said:

but for ranked mode, win rate is everything

The problem is we don't actually have a reliable means of measuring a ship's true win rate in ranked.  There are far too many potential biases that skew the public server stats, and WoWS numbers does not even begin to come close to providing the tools to filter them out.  Without more information on the population that plays the Belfast, how it compares to the population playing other ships, and greater details on the gameplay factors determining the Belfast's battle influence, we simply don't have accurate enough information.

 

*Minor tangent

 

When it comes to WoWS numbers I think the community largely suffers from the Gell-Mann amnesia effect.  They know that statistical biases exist which skew the win rates of certain ships (epically new releases, premiums and steel ships), they also largely acknowledge that spreadsheet balancing can lead to questionably balanced ships (such as the Smolensk), but whenever the discussion flips to more "mundane" ships without an obviously visible explanation for their stats,  the community completely forgets about statistical biases and takes WoWS numbers and its spreadsheets as the be all/end all of balance.

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3 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I would conclude, everyone (regardless of skill level) will be using the payfest... In game reality, CL are useless depending on the fleet make up of a match.

So, stats dont reveal the whole picture. Stats only shown what a ship has done... NOW, it doesn't say in great detail, as to how...

"In game reality, CL are useless depending on the fleet make up of a match"

I beg to differ...I've carried more than my fair share of ranked fail teams in my Fiji to include going toe to toe with Belfasts, and duo sync dropped Sinops in a match.  In my humble opinion the Fiji is very competitive regardless of team make up.

... carry on.

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3 hours ago, MandalorianBH said:

I beg to differ...I've carried more than my fair share of ranked fail teams in my Fiji to include going toe to toe with Belfasts, and duo sync dropped Sinops in a match.  In my humble opinion the Fiji is very competitive regardless of team make up.

Read the parenthesis which stats

"(Regardless of skill level)."

Your experience dont represent the majority... If you carried, good for you... HOWEVER< in a tier 7 rank match

  • If your high caliber guns dont produce... No one else is going to carry.

  It takes a CL over 10 min. to sink a BB of the same tier.. In contrast, a BB can sink it in 6 shots.

I can tell you now, no one is saying.. " a Belfest, GG boys its a loss." Not in the Rank/Random games the majority of the player base have seen..

So far what I've seen in Rank that create loses

  • High caliber ships failing to produce.
  • High armor ships conceding territory to the red fleet
  • Not capping, because high caliber ships failed at sinking or scaring away ships with their presence/guns.
  • Losing the BB adv. against the red fleet.

Do you see anything on the list concerning CL's???

CL's are not dictating the terms of who wins or who loses... Based on the numbers, stats and games I played... Its very disproportionate to one ship class...

Dismissed..

Edited by Navalpride33

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4 hours ago, jason199506 said:

now, my question is why do i see threads after threads of complaining about the belfast, but never one about Z39?

do people actually know what belfast stats mean and genuinely think it is overpowered? or is people just hating belfast because everyone says it's broken so it must be broken?

 

im just really curious

Because according to Flamu, Z-39 is trash tier and a liability to the team. Also, i'm very syprised Flint and Haida didn't make that list. Is smoke on cruisers not so OP after all? i give Belfast's op'ness to her access to Radar and Hydro at the same time.

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Read the parenthesis which stats

"(Regardless of skill level)."

Your experience dont represent the majority... If you carried, good for you... HOWEVER< in a tier 7 rank match

  • If your high caliber guns dont produce... No one else is going to carry.

  It takes a CL over 10 min. to sink a BB of the same tier.. In contrast, a BB can sink in 6 shots.

I can tell you now, no one is saying.. " a Belfest, GG boys its a loss." Not in the Rank/Random games the majority of the player base have seen..

So far what I've seen in Rank that create loses

  • High caliber ships failing to produce.
  • High armor ships conceding territory to the red fleet
  • Not capping, because high caliber ships failed at sinking or scaring away ships with their presence/guns.
  • Losing the BB adv. against the red fleet.

Do you see anything on the list concerning CL's???

CL's are not dictating the terms of who wins or who loses... Based on the numbers, stats and games I played... Its very disproportionate to one ship class...

Dismissed..

you left out dds yoloing 3 min in.

Belfast and other CLs aren't going to win without a decent team around them. Belfast in particular can spot dds in caps and eliminate them especially if a dd or another cruiser is there to tag team the dd. Winning the vision fight will win games. Keeping your bbs clean of dds and pesky he spamming cls wins games. But no cl will do this alone.

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4 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

you left out dds yoloing 3 min in. 

In context to the O P... DDs were not part of the discourse.. 

All I can Say, In rank anything is possible... The must likely outcome are the points I noted.

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This ranked if one of the worst imo because of Belfast and Atlanta pick rates.  Both are premium ships not accessible to everyone and they are by far superior to any tech tree cruiser in ranked.   Smoke and Radar in one ship?  Like c'mon, this is not fun for dds, or BBs.    Every single ranked map in this season seems to be catered just for Belfast and Atlanta.   Rocks scattered everywhere for them to shoot over

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7 hours ago, murder_0ne said:

You're basing your conclusion on bad data and false premise. Win rate and damage done is irrelevant. You can't measure the effectiveness of smoke/radar/dps with the above stats.

The Belfast has not been readily available for a couple of years. This means those driving it most likely know how to get the best out of it. I believe that has far more to do with the Belfast success in ranked battles than all of the "extras" the ships offers.

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