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Warmonger2600

Torpedoes and BOTS, old story, but why?

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I know it's probably been said a hundred (or a thousand) times before. But why will bots turn into friendly torpedoes? They "actively" avoid enemy torps, yet when I launch mine well out of their path, they turns into mine. I can post the replay, but why, everyone knows. If they have the ability to avoid enemy why can't they just treat ALL torps as enemy torpedoes and avoid them???

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In combat there is IFF. (Identify Friend and Foe).

In programming, red torps are identified and reacted to accordingly. But bots also identify green torps as no threat. And no threat warrants no evasive action taken.

Like Estimated said, lazy programming.

I have hit just as many bots with gunfire than with torpedoes.

And consequently, I have been hit by friendly bots quite often.

As a rule, if they are all on one side of map, I sail opposite side. I keep them in front of me as well.

It comes with the territory as it were.

Just be glad bots don't report you.

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Lazy programming.

     Yes, to a large extent, it is but the whole picture may be more nuanced.

     It might be that one of Lesta's intentions is to use AI elements to acclimate new players to things like team damage, avoiding cross-fire, AA defense, dealing with teams composed of idiots, and so on. If they wanted to, they could tune the bots to never ram, beat friendly torps, and make bot CV's as oppressive as two Hakuryu's in a T8 Random match.

      In any case, WeeGee doesn't put much effort into PvE. PvP earns them more money, and we should probably be grateful for having PvE at all. They decided to try to combine an enjoyable PvE  environment and a training mode in the same package with a minumum of programming effort, and we see the result.

Edited by So_lt_Goes

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It would be interesting to know how much monies WG makes from the different modes.

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4 hours ago, Warmonger2600 said:

I know it's probably been said a hundred (or a thousand) times before. But why will bots turn into friendly torpedoes? They "actively" avoid enemy torps, yet when I launch mine well out of their path, they turns into mine. I can post the replay, but why, everyone knows. If they have the ability to avoid enemy why can't they just treat ALL torps as enemy torpedoes and avoid them???

Don`t use torps when you can hit your own team.

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2 hours ago, So_lt_Goes said:

     Yes, to a large extent, it is but the whole picture may be more nuanced.

     It might be that one of Lesta's intentions is to use AI elements to acclimate new players to things like team damage, avoiding cross-fire, AA defense, dealing with teams composed of idiots, and so on. If they wanted to, they could tune the bots to never ram, beat friendly torps, and make bot CV's as oppressive as two Hakuryu's in a T8 Random match.

      In any case, WeeGee doesn't put much effort into PvE. PvP earns them more money, and we should probably be grateful for having PvE at all. They decided to try to combine an enjoyable PvE  environment and a training mode in the same package with a minumum of programming effort, and we see the result.

Silly question:

How does PvP earn WG more money than PvE ?? 

The servers are paid for.  The electric bills are paid.  The energy expended on AI is about the same as dealing with user connection and error recovery issues.

I just don't see it.

There are just as many wallet-warriors in Co-Op, than there are folks who free-xp to tier 10 at the beginning of every line.

As far as service tickets, I'm pretty sure more 'misunderstanding' ones are generated from Random than Co-Op.

...............

PvE not making as much may have been true in 2015, but times have changed.  Co-Op and scenarios have been getting quite crowded lately.

Some folks just come here for enjoyment, and not get caught up in the drama of someone else's bad day.  I'm glad WG sees this and doesn't treat them like second class citizens.

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21 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

Silly question:

How does PvP earn WG more money than PvE ?? 

The servers are paid for.  The electric bills are paid.  The energy expended on AI is about the same as dealing with user connection and error recovery issues.

I just don't see it.

There are just as many wallet-warriors in Co-Op, than there are folks who free-xp to tier 10 at the beginning of every line.

As far as service tickets, I'm pretty sure more 'misunderstanding' ones are generated from Random than Co-Op.

...............

PvE not making as much may have been true in 2015, but times have changed.  Co-Op and scenarios have been getting quite crowded lately.

Some folks just come here for enjoyment, and not get caught up in the drama of someone else's bad day.  I'm glad WG sees this and doesn't treat them like second class citizens.

First thought that comes to mind is that in Random battles there are more players per team, therefore the "risk" or "hazard" is higher because there are more potential chances to get your own ship sunk.  (Though, the teams have the same number of players... oh, I need coffee.)
Co-op battles = fewer opposing ships that can attempt to sink you.  Random battles = more opposing ships that can attempt to sink you.  This theory may or may not pan-out.  Oh well.

Be the first ship the opposing team sees and you're likely to get "focus fired" upon.  :-)

'Bots don't lack for courage, and they emulate human behavior (such as damaging friendly ships, beaching on islands and etc.).  :-)
Human players have been known to "kite-away" more that 'Bots.  :-)

Credits and XP are awarded according to a number of things, including damage dealt/received, if I recall correctly.  With more ships available as "targets", Random battles and Scenario Operations offer more potential rewards.

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1 hour ago, AVR_Project said:

Silly question:

How does PvP earn WG more money than PvE ?? 

 

     Primarily higher participation. Bigger slice of the population pie.

     Also, competitive gamers are more likely to spend $$$ on perceived advantages, i.e. camos, econ signals, premium botes.

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On 5/24/2020 at 7:06 AM, cecill611 said:

Don`t use torps when you can hit your own team.

Cannot be over stated.

Do not torpedo if a green bote is anywhere between you and the target.  If you do it is all on you...

 

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I'm not going to argue about responsibility, because when things go bad, it's the shooter's fault, simply because it's the only reasonable answer to the fault question.  Sort of like rear end collisions - you hit a vehicle's rear end with your vehicle, you are the primary at-fault party.  Any exception to that is so rare as to be anything but "the exception that proves the rule".  I suppose you could say that it comes down to how you interpret MWSVette1's statement "...between you and the target."  What exactly does between mean, yada yada.

However, in practice, we all take some risk, because it's a battle, and if we never shoot torps when it's POSSIBLE for a green bote to suddenly turn and dash for the one path where those torps will hit them - well, we won't get nearly as many wins or as much xp/credits.  Do we really take time for navel gazing analysis of if that green bote is "between" self and target?  No time for that, snap judgment call that can go wrong.  And on those occasions when I do hit someone, it's usually because I don't look LONG enough to figure out beyond a doubt if it's possible they could hit if the green ship does exactly the wrong thing, and they do.  When that happens, maybe once or twice a week (less than 1 percent of battles by far), I apologize, take responsibility, any karma reduction, and wear my pink shame for a couple of battles.  It even happens on rare occasions I intentionally take a risky shot based on a snap risk/reward analysis.  On the other hand, I have passed up on MANY torpedo shots I spent considerable time to set up only to have player DerpyMcDerpface ruin by sailing into the line of fire.  Sometimes Derpy has colons before and after name, sometimes not.

 I personally am a bit less likely to shoot if its a human who could possibly (but never probably) get hit than I am with a bot.  I don't expect to never get hit, I expect reasonable amounts of consideration.  Sometimes "stuff happens".  Now, when it's a bot, well, I could make an empirical argument that the green bots actually try to get in your torp path, and some have said WG programs that in to teach torp firing discipline.

Also - if anyone does hit me and apologizes, I never take away karma.  If there is plenty of time in game afterwards and no apology, and it appears the negligence was pretty considerable, then I do.  BLAB (bottom line at bottom):  If I hit you with torpedoes, it's because I failed to notice you or consider you as possible "collateral damage", not because I don't try to be responsible with my ordinance.  It's a mistake, not malice or indifference.

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9 hours ago, Thunder_Feet said:

I'm not going to argue about responsibility, because when things go bad, it's the shooter's fault, simply because it's the only reasonable answer to the fault question.  Sort of like rear end collisions - you hit a vehicle's rear end with your vehicle, you are the primary at-fault party.  Any exception to that is so rare as to be anything but "the exception that proves the rule".  I suppose you could say that it comes down to how you interpret MWSVette1's statement "...between you and the target."  What exactly does between mean, yada yada.

However, in practice, we all take some risk, because it's a battle, and if we never shoot torps when it's POSSIBLE for a green bote to suddenly turn and dash for the one path where those torps will hit them - well, we won't get nearly as many wins or as much xp/credits.  Do we really take time for navel gazing analysis of if that green bote is "between" self and target?  No time for that, snap judgment call that can go wrong.  And on those occasions when I do hit someone, it's usually because I don't look LONG enough to figure out beyond a doubt if it's possible they could hit if the green ship does exactly the wrong thing, and they do.  When that happens, maybe once or twice a week (less than 1 percent of battles by far), I apologize, take responsibility, any karma reduction, and wear my pink shame for a couple of battles.  It even happens on rare occasions I intentionally take a risky shot based on a snap risk/reward analysis.  On the other hand, I have passed up on MANY torpedo shots I spent considerable time to set up only to have player DerpyMcDerpface ruin by sailing into the line of fire.  Sometimes Derpy has colons before and after name, sometimes not.

 I personally am a bit less likely to shoot if its a human who could possibly (but never probably) get hit than I am with a bot.  I don't expect to never get hit, I expect reasonable amounts of consideration.  Sometimes "stuff happens".  Now, when it's a bot, well, I could make an empirical argument that the green bots actually try to get in your torp path, and some have said WG programs that in to teach torp firing discipline.

Also - if anyone does hit me and apologizes, I never take away karma.  If there is plenty of time in game afterwards and no apology, and it appears the negligence was pretty considerable, then I do.  BLAB (bottom line at bottom):  If I hit you with torpedoes, it's because I failed to notice you or consider you as possible "collateral damage", not because I don't try to be responsible with my ordinance.  It's a mistake, not malice or indifference.

I feel similarly, but with less verbage:

  1. Yes, I was responsible, but it wasn't intentional, so sorry about that.
  2. You know it's a freakin' game, right? Get over yourself.

I understand that this doesn't work for everyone. :Smile_honoring:

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44 minutes ago, aardvark7734 said:

I feel similarly, but with less verbage:

  1. Yes, I was responsible, but it wasn't intentional, so sorry about that.
  2. You know it's a freakin' game, right? Get over yourself.

I understand that this doesn't work for everyone. :Smile_honoring:

Yeah, i was feeling verbose this morning.

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On 5/24/2020 at 4:06 AM, cecill611 said:

Don`t use torps when you can hit your own team.

That does get to be a huge problem with (relatively) long range sea-mines like the Black carries. Anytime you are not firing directly away from your team, there is always a chance a friendly can find a way to catch up to your torps. Visually, there are no friendlies anywhere near the torps path, but where are those friendlies gonna be in a couple of minutes..

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On 5/25/2020 at 4:38 PM, MWSVette1 said:

Do not torpedo if a green bote is anywhere between you and the target.  If you do it is all on you...

For me it isn't between me and the target. I know enough to not shoot while cursing the the guy keeping me from taking the shot. Its what is in the background. Sometimes the distant background. Especially if the target has the audacity to sink before my torps arrive so they all go cruising off into regions beyond my ability to calculate what ships could be there by the time my torps arrive.

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6 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

For me it isn't between me and the target. I know enough to not shoot while cursing the the guy keeping me from taking the shot. Its what is in the background. Sometimes the distant background. Especially if the target has the audacity to sink before my torps arrive so they all go cruising off into regions beyond my ability to calculate what ships could be there by the time my torps arrive.

If you hit someone on your team it is your fault. 

You can spin it all you want to but it is still your fault.

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If you fire toros at red bots when they are targeted by you (with the reticle indicator on them), they are well able to evade.

If you launch the torps without the target reticle on the intended victim, they are not terribly able to sense and evade the toros.

I suspect they are as poor at sensing and evading “friendly” torps as they are unable to sense and evade enemy torps that are just in the water in their vicinity...

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3 hours ago, MN_Nice said:

If you fire toros at red bots when they are targeted by you (with the reticle indicator on them), they are well able to evade.

If you launch the torps without the target reticle on the intended victim, they are not terribly able to sense and evade the toros.

I suspect they are as poor at sensing and evading “friendly” torps as they are unable to sense and evade enemy torps that are just in the water in their vicinity...

Always suspected this. I often get hits on following ships after the real target makes a turn right after I fire. It COULD be a randomized turn, but I doubt it. Although sometimes I realize the target might have had hydro up so would spot the torps early.  On the other hand, bots SHOULD be great at dodging torps legally. They can spot and analyze the torp threat instantly and start a turn (assuming they are programmed correctly). Their human counterparts have to recognize the torpedo warning (typically from their zoomed in scope view), change to a wide view and look in the direction of the torps, analyze the threat (do I have to turn? Which way? ) and then slam the proper rudder for a torpedo beat. That's a lot of delay.

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7 hours ago, MN_Nice said:

If you fire toros at red bots when they are targeted by you (with the reticle indicator on them), they are well able to evade.

If you launch the torps without the target reticle on the intended victim, they are not terribly able to sense and evade the toros.

I suspect they are as poor at sensing and evading “friendly” torps as they are unable to sense and evade enemy torps that are just in the water in their vicinity...

Contrary to popular belief bots suck at evading torpedoes...

2130724429_WorldofWarships5_28_20204_11_17PM.thumb.png.fffdfa1c1cba5beb020b56b0d4b7537e.png

477417932_WorldofWarships5_28_20204_05_49PM.thumb.png.78468a5464bc57bd10c2641cd4437dca.png

674416329_WorldofWarships5_28_20204_06_29PM.thumb.png.1b500db979a86eb127c2d0c5509ed4f3.png

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37 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Always suspected this. I often get hits on following ships after the real target makes a turn right after I fire. It COULD be a randomized turn, but I doubt it. Although sometimes I realize the target might have had hydro up so would spot the torps early.  On the other hand, bots SHOULD be great at dodging torps legally. They can spot and analyze the torp threat instantly and start a turn (assuming they are programmed correctly). Their human counterparts have to recognize the torpedo warning (typically from their zoomed in scope view), change to a wide view and look in the direction of the torps, analyze the threat (do I have to turn? Which way? ) and then slam the proper rudder for a torpedo beat. That's a lot of delay.

@Sabot_100 -- agreed that they SHOULD be able to evade pretty effectively, even if they only begin to act once they have detected the inbound torpedo...but it seems pretty effective to line up the torp predictor, put the launcher on the indicated white zone, hit "x" to move the reticle off that target ship, and launch on the predicted course...a lot more effective than just launching on the prediction while keeping the target ship "targeted" with the reticle anyway...

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32 minutes ago, MN_Nice said:

@Sabot_100 -- agreed that they SHOULD be able to evade pretty effectively, even if they only begin to act once they have detected the inbound torpedo...but it seems pretty effective to line up the torp predictor, put the launcher on the indicated white zone, hit "x" to move the reticle off that target ship, and launch on the predicted course...a lot more effective than just launching on the prediction while keeping the target ship "targeted" with the reticle anyway.

The bots also seem to know what ammo you are loading.  Shoot a couple of HE salvos at a broadside bot, no problem. As soon as you start loading AP, it turns bow in

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15 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

The bots also seem to know what ammo you are loading.  Shoot a couple of HE salvos at a broadside bot, no problem. As soon as you start loading AP, it turns bow in

While my evidence is only anecdotal, I have noticed the same thing recently.

It seems to be a relatively new turn of events, they did not used to do this....

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

The bots also seem to know what ammo you are loading.  Shoot a couple of HE salvos at a broadside bot, no problem. As soon as you start loading AP, it turns bow in

THIS. A million times THIS.

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I may not be remembering correctly but isn't friendly fire non-damaging in PVE scenarios?

 

Another question concerning torps - why don't the friendly bots use theirs more? I'm thinking of the two American DDs that show up in the Defend naval base scenario. They seem to only use their guns, even when really good torp shots present themselves. I've watched many red ships get away when they could have easily been torpedoed but weren't. Frustrating when the team is losing and needs all the help it can get.

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On 5/26/2020 at 7:01 AM, Thunder_Feet said:

DerpyMcDerpface

Oh I know him... well, unfortunately.

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