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Thunder_Feet

"Mercy Rule" is fixed - what problems did that reveal?

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I think the points added to starting value in Domination, and to a lesser extent in Epicenter has been a great "fix" and made the co-op mode MUCH more fun to play.  However, now that this issue isn't truncating games to sub-4 minutes or even sub-3 minutes, some other things are becoming apparent.  I think it's time for this to become its own topic, so here's some possible issues for discussion:

1.  Matchmaking... Why a green bot CV?  Would it make the game better if there was never a green bot CV?

2.  Also matchmaking... if there are several humans in the queue, why would one end up the only human in the battle?  Is that good or bad?

3.  Magic bot superpowers.

4.  Anything else that has bubbled up now that the pot has longer to simmer.

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5 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

1.  Matchmaking... Why a green bot CV?  Would it make the game better if there was never a green bot CV?

2.  Also matchmaking... if there are several humans in the queue, why would one end up the only human in the battle?  Is that good or bad?

3.  Magic bot superpowers.

1. Because planes are needed for missions and it's easy extra xp and credits.

2. Because not all those humans are in the same tier spread. So the other ones you see end up in a match and the lone other ship hits the timer limit and gets thrown into a match.

3. Because bots need some things to actually work in pve.

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#3 is the only one that strikes me as needing just a tiny bit of attention.
I like the bots being a challenge, but for instance a BB on rollerskates with perma-hydro and the ability to accelerate to ludicrous speed is a bit much.

Art & Inspiration - It's a Plaid, Plaid World... | Page 3 | The ...

( I know, I know... bots are programmed to turn randomly, don't trust the indicator, it's just accelerating out of a turn, no evidence, it's coincidence the CV sent planes directly to the unspotted DD, etc. etc.)

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I have to say concerning Green Bot CVs - I wouldn't mind them so much - if the green bot was as effective against the reds as the red bot CV is against the green team.  It seems that the green bot CV is always of little or no worth compared to the red one.  Purely subjective, but I think others have the same perception.

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most of the time can totally ignore planes, but once in awhile they can aim and actually do damage. rolled a 20?  lol

hate sometimes games will end early with 1-2 ships left, that's damage i usually wanted to farm ... especially when almost in range of that CV you've spent 3min getting to then bam it ends /ARGH

and wouldn't mind if it took 45 maybe even 60sec to search if it means not loaded with half or more bots, but yeah sometimes those are great farming games

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I think my only real gripe with 3 is the seemingly huge fire likelihood they have.  When you are out in a fire breathing ship and you struggle to get 10 fires with 400 hits (happened to me several times) and you get lit up with just about every single hit from a HE firing bot (both secondary and main battery) , it really does get old and there's not much you can combat it with. The other "Special Skills" they have we can deal with but when RNG is rigged...

addendum: The bots, of late, seem to be stretching the detected time a bit, I am increasingly being hit when I doubt the shells could have been fired when I was detected.

Edited by Efros

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5 hours ago, Thunder_Feet said:

I think the points added to starting value in Domination, and to a lesser extent in Epicenter has been a great "fix" and made the co-op mode MUCH more fun to play.  However, now that this issue isn't truncating games to sub-4 minutes or even sub-3 minutes, some other things are becoming apparent.  I think it's time for this to become its own topic, so here's some possible issues for discussion:

1.  Matchmaking... Why a green bot CV?  Would it make the game better if there was never a green bot CV?

2.  Also matchmaking... if there are several humans in the queue, why would one end up the only human in the battle?  Is that good or bad?

3.  Magic bot superpowers.

4.  Anything else that has bubbled up now that the pot has longer to simmer.

1)  As said above.........and, to market and sell more carriers.

2)  MM is only about ship selection.  And, as stated ^^^, you can end up all alone !   AND, that is a good thing!; because, it's then up to you and you alone to be all you said you are stud......

3)  You are playing a computer and....................it's kind of hard to program dumb......  After all, some other player in another thread said PVE is the kindergarten of WoWs.....  So, the computer approves and the implements a KISS doctrine - I won't miss, won't flinch and won't slow down my reaction for human filth......... 

4)  I haven't seen a MR ending since the change !  We've run the clock out chasing a CV (because all of the long range BB's were D-E-A-D because they were noodle-neck stupid heads....)

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Downes said:

it's coincidence the CV sent planes directly to the unspotted DD

Not a coincidence. It is a fact that the bots all have RPF. Have from day one. Even the planes. And their RPF also tells them the type of ship (if not the exact ship and its health) and the course heading for an intercept. Without it, they would cruise off  in random directions until an enemy is spotted then all turn in that direction. There may be a randomizer of some sort in the program because they do not always move according to this info. Could just be  periodic "random" course changes either side of the RPF derived heading.

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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

1)  As said above.........and, to market and sell more carriers.

More to give purpose to ships whose main selling point is good AA. Adding a green bot CV means there aren't enough coop CV players at that time.

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7 hours ago, Thunder_Feet said:

2.  Also matchmaking... if there are several humans in the queue, why would one end up the only human in the battle?  Is that good or bad?

I'd rather have more humans in the game also. It may be that the coop MM doesn't try to make a match with all the available ships. If you bring a T8 and the other human is in a T6, you are technically in the same range, until MM decides to put you in a battle with a T9 so the T6 no longer qualifies.

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7 hours ago, Admiral_Downes said:

#3 is the only one that strikes me as needing just a tiny bit of attention.
I like the bots being a challenge, but for instance a BB on rollerskates with perma-hydro and the ability to accelerate to ludicrous speed is a bit much.

Art & Inspiration - It's a Plaid, Plaid World... | Page 3 | The ...

( I know, I know... bots are programmed to turn randomly, don't trust the indicator, it's just accelerating out of a turn, no evidence, it's coincidence the CV sent planes directly to the unspotted DD, etc. etc.)

Case in point ... I just got the Orkan, a fine DD that I am a perfect potato in (I have proven very well that I can not drive a DD).  I play a game or two in coop to get the feel of it and take it out to a random (I also play mostly coop).  First and only game in random, I just hit the speed boost and using the WASD hack like crazy, i somehow end up surviving the battle having accumulated 1.8 million of potential damage.  I also caused a few holes in the red team.  It was a win because it seems everyone wanted to shoot me.

 

So back to coop. .... I can't even get 100000 potential damage.  Can't survive at all unless I hide most of the match (not my style).  Those bots NEVER miss.  And they know my moves before I do. 

PS:  This is NOT a rant.  I know the bots need some help, and I am ok with that.  Just a recent example of mine.

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

I'd rather have more humans in the game also. It may be that the coop MM doesn't try to make a match with all the available ships. If you bring a T8 and the other human is in a T6, you are technically in the same range, until MM decides to put you in a battle with a T9 so the T6 no longer qualifies.

You can have the humans and I will take the bots.

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1 hour ago, cecill611 said:

You can have the humans and I will take the bots.

Should clarify. I like  having 3-4 bots on the team. Nice having volunteers to die early. More than that and it can get dicey securing the win. 

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Not a coincidence. 

Perhaps you are agreeing with me and simply expanding on my point, but I should have been more clear that I was being cynical. 
 

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Hate having full team of humans. Match usually goes one of two ways.

Either your in full competing mode with fellow green ships to eek out a whole 300 BXP game. OR watch as your team go full potato and sail to back of map for a lazy flank manoeuvre and I suddenly get lit up with 7 reds aiming at me.

Team composition aside, the next thing I'd like WeeGee to sort is the bot ramming algorithm. It's great that bots are hyper aggressive but a bit of restraint would be nice before launching their ship sized torpedos at each other.

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We'd have to modify some of the human players algorithms too, I see way too many full strength ships (usually BBSs) ramming less than (sometimes way less than) full strength bots. Ramming is a perfectly correct ploy in the right circumstances, ending a game quickly, taking out a bot when you're about to die yourself, and others but this sort of stuff is lazy, not as rewarding and just irritates.

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1 hour ago, Efros said:

We'd have to modify some of the human players algorithms too, I see way too many full strength ships (usually BBSs) ramming less than (sometimes way less than) full strength bots. Ramming is a perfectly correct ploy in the right circumstances, ending a game quickly, taking out a bot when you're about to die yourself, and others but this sort of stuff is lazy, not as rewarding and just irritates.

^^^This.  Agreed wholeheartedly that the bot ramming algorithm needs some tweakage... although I've gotten much better at figuring out when they're setting up to ram ME and avoiding it.

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21 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

1. Because planes are needed for missions and it's easy extra xp and credits.

2. Because not all those humans are in the same tier spread. So the other ones you see end up in a match and the lone other ship hits the timer limit and gets thrown into a match.

3. Because bots need some things to actually work in pve.

+1

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On 5/22/2020 at 11:36 AM, Thunder_Feet said:

I have to say concerning Green Bot CVs - I wouldn't mind them so much - if the green bot was as effective against the reds as the red bot CV is against the green team.  It seems that the green bot CV is always of little or no worth compared to the red one.  Purely subjective, but I think others have the same perception.

I agree with your observation. The allied bot CV is practically worthless compared to the enemy CV.

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I have made another observation, now that the battles last a little longer, something I saw occasionally has become all too regular and makes me doubt coincidence:

You are contesting a cap in co-op, it's a bit of (or completely) a brawl.  You're in a DD or CL and you have killed a ship, maybe two with torps and your launchers are reloading.  You twist, turn, take shelter behind a little island, smoke up, fight for your life with your little pop guns against huge BB rifles and you survive the reload period with a sliver or a slice of health.  The tube(s) reload, you are waiting for them to swing around and BLAP, at that instant you're ready to launch you get taken out.  Same timing 2 or more times a day, blapped just as you are about to deliver a point-blank coup-de-grace.

Now, I can't see a reason anyone would intentionally program this kind of troll into their game, but in the 7th decade of my life I have learned the lesson that coincidences happen once, rarely twice, and three times you look for whoever is setting you up - or if they're good coincidences, you thank Divine Providence for the intervention.  This morning, 2 games in a row, first and second game of the day - same thing, once in Maass, once in Jutland.  Blap.  Deaddy McDead, just at the moment of triumph.

Maybe it is all just observation bias, since there's so much going on you can't see everything; maybe such things are happening to the red bots, too - but they don't come to the forum for a soul-cleansing vent?  I sure don't know, but the coincidences make my brain itch.

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24 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

I have made another observation, now that the battles last a little longer, something I saw occasionally has become all too regular and makes me doubt coincidence:

You are contesting a cap in co-op, it's a bit of (or completely) a brawl.  You're in a DD or CL and you have killed a ship, maybe two with torps and your launchers are reloading.  You twist, turn, take shelter behind a little island, smoke up, fight for your life with your little pop guns against huge BB rifles and you survive the reload period with a sliver or a slice of health.  The tube(s) reload, you are waiting for them to swing around and BLAP, at that instant you're ready to launch you get taken out.  Same timing 2 or more times a day, blapped just as you are about to deliver a point-blank coup-de-grace.

Now, I can't see a reason anyone would intentionally program this kind of troll into their game, but in the 7th decade of my life I have learned the lesson that coincidences happen once, rarely twice, and three times you look for whoever is setting you up - or if they're good coincidences, you thank Divine Providence for the intervention.  This morning, 2 games in a row, first and second game of the day - same thing, once in Maass, once in Jutland.  Blap.  Deaddy McDead, just at the moment of triumph.

Maybe it is all just observation bias, since there's so much going on you can't see everything; maybe such things are happening to the red bots, too - but they don't come to the forum for a soul-cleansing vent?  I sure don't know, but the coincidences make my brain itch.

And, the itch worsens - just happened a third time, in Zao.  I'm not kidding, it's litterally a second more and I at least deliver a kill before I die.  (scratches head.)

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11 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

And, the itch worsens - just happened a third time, in Zao.  I'm not kidding, it's litterally a second more and I at least deliver a kill before I die.  (scratches head.)

I will add to the list.  I, too, have observed this on more than one occasion. 

I also do not believe in "coincidences".

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8 minutes ago, Captain_Slattery said:

I will add to the list.  I, too, have observed this on more than one occasion. 

I also do not believe in "coincidences".

And there have been multiple times I swear I've clicked the mouse to launch my torps BEFORE I've been killed, but nothing happens.

I'm usually ~35 ms ping, so I don't think it's lag.

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23 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

And, the itch worsens - just happened a third time, in Zao.  I'm not kidding, it's litterally a second more and I at least deliver a kill before I die.  (scratches head.)

 

8 minutes ago, Captain_Slattery said:

I will add to the list.  I, too, have observed this on more than one occasion. 

I also do not believe in "coincidences".

Yeah.  This morning it was 3 out of 5 battles.  The one in Zao wasn't a bad battle, had kills and around 100k damage done, but it was literally that one second, maybe 1.5 seconds, and it's a great battle, 150 or 200k damage.  Still head scratching here.

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