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VVoony

Your thoughts on skipping IFHE on soviet cruisers with 180mm guns?

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what's your thought on skipping IFHE on soviet cruisers with 180mm guns such as Dimitri Donskoi?

I think the cost of the penalty you have to pay is too great to justify the extra penetration that will only help against battleships. I think having more fire chance is as much as valid against battleships anyway

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Additional fire damage is up to RNG.  Improved alpha damage is assured.  

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IFHE on most ships is definitely more of a choice and preference now than it was before - do you go for fires or pen damage? Personally I still run IFHE on every ship I did before (the only ones I would have dropped it from were German and US BB secondary builds and Jutland/Daring, none of which I ran before the changes either), since I'd rather have more reliable direct/assured damage than relying on RNG based damage, but dropping IFHE for DE is viable if that's the playstyle you want to go with.

 

Also keep in mind that fire damage can be fully healed back, pen damage cannot, and fires are heavily based on chance (and when it comes down to it, your actual fire chance at higher tiers is only a few percent once you factor in all of the various fire buffs and reductions) and rely on the ship you're targeting not already being on fire. Yes raw fires will eventually burn a ship down, but it will take a lot longer than fewer fires and guaranteed pen damage, and that extra time could be the difference between winning or losing a fight or the battle or you/a teammate living or dying.

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07

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I dont remember if Donskoi will receive the same treating as Tallinn later (since they have the same guns), but i dont use IFHE for Tallinn because of her busted AP (improved bouncing angles, better pen than cruisers with bigger caliber than her at the same tier and a shorter fuse) means im firing mostly AP with her than HE.

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47 minutes ago, VVoony said:

what's your thought on skipping IFHE on soviet cruisers with 180mm guns such as Dimitri Donskoi?

I think the cost of the penalty you have to pay is too great to justify the extra penetration that will only help against battleships. I think having more fire chance is as much as valid against battleships anyway

Everything you need to know is here:

 

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34 minutes ago, PrairiePlayer said:

Improved alpha damage is assured.  

Not necessarily.  It entirely depends on the ship you're facing.  IFHE provides no value against Tier 6-7 BBs, DDs and most cruisers.  While in theory it's useful against Tier 8+ BBs, a significant portion of them have sections of armor plating that still shatters IFHE 180s, so even then it's a little more contextual.

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1 hour ago, VVoony said:

what's your thought on skipping IFHE on soviet cruisers with 180mm guns such as Dimitri Donskoi?

I think the cost of the penalty you have to pay is too great to justify the extra penetration that will only help against battleships. I think having more fire chance is as much as valid against battleships anyway

Better to set them up as fire-starters, I think.
No over-penetrations that way, and you won't worry about which ammo you've got loaded (if a DD suddenly appears).

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Wouldn't use it on 99% of ships. As long as you pen 30mm then you are fine. It greatly loses value against the more common tier 8, 9, and 10 battle ships. 

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its handy for penning 32mm bb but really you are losing alot more dpm by cutting the fire chance in half, its more efficient to not have IFHE and just aim for superstructure to get full pens.

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7 minutes ago, eagle_lance said:

Wouldn't use it on 99% of ships. As long as you pen 30mm then you are fine. It greatly loses value against the more common tier 8, 9, and 10 battle ships. 

yet we have a pinned thread still at the top telling everyone to use IFHE on everything...…………..

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24 minutes ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

yet we have a pinned thread still at the top telling everyone to use IFHE on everything...…………..

Which thread is that?

LWM's is only about 50% ships should take IFHE & states specifically that it's not effective on most lower to medium caliber gunned ships T6 & up that are just trying to pen T8 & up BBs.

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39 minutes ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

yet we have a pinned thread still at the top telling everyone to use IFHE on everything...…………..

Just curious, which pinned post is telling everyone to use IFHE on everything? 

(The thread doesn't even recommend it on 50% of any tier, let alone 50% of everything)

Edited by Admiral_Downes

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51 minutes ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

yet we have a pinned thread still at the top telling everyone to use IFHE on everything...…………..

IFHE is now enough of a trade off there is no "right choice".  It's up to the player to understand the benefits and negatives of IFHE and make their own informed opinion as either choice will lead to scenarios that negatively affect their combat performance.

Edited by yashma

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17 minutes ago, yashma said:

IFHE is now enough of a trade off there is no "right choice".  It's up to the player to understand the benefits and negatives of IFHE and make their own informed opinion as either choice will lead to scenarios that negatively affect their combat performance.

at what cost per ship? 190k elite captains points to test it, and another 190k to switch back? Or, 500 doubloons to test and switch back for another 500 doubloons.... basically a five dollar test run per ship? Sure we had a week to test....

Edited by Joyous_Vibes

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7 hours ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

yet we have a pinned thread still at the top telling everyone to use IFHE on everything...…………..

I was referring to tiers 8 and up. I've found the fire chance nerf to be too high and not worth 4 points. Many battleships are covered in sections of armor over 38mm which you can't pen with 152-180mm guns with ifhe. If you aim super structure you will still get damage and maintain a very high fire chance. 

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8 hours ago, yashma said:

Not necessarily.  It entirely depends on the ship you're facing.  IFHE provides no value against Tier 6-7 BBs, DDs and most cruisers.  While in theory it's useful against Tier 8+ BBs, a significant portion of them have sections of armor plating that still shatters IFHE 180s, so even then it's a little more contextual.

 

7 hours ago, eagle_lance said:

Wouldn't use it on 99% of ships. As long as you pen 30mm then you are fine. It greatly loses value against the more common tier 8, 9, and 10 battle ships. 

 

7 hours ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

its handy for penning 32mm bb but really you are losing alot more dpm by cutting the fire chance in half, its more efficient to not have IFHE and just aim for superstructure to get full pens.

 

10 minutes ago, eagle_lance said:

I was referring to tiers 8 and up. I've found the fire chance nerf to be too high and not worth 4 points. Many battleships are covered in sections of armor over 38mm which you can't pen with 152-180mm guns with ifhe. If you aim super structure you will still get damage and maintain a very high fire chance. 

Not that long ago I've had a big argument on the "Help Me" discord about this very topic. Felt like I was all alone against everyone else in claiming that IFHE costs too much for its benefit, which is of questionable value to begin with.

Glad to see there are some sane people out there.

You'd think that people with "Tutor" tags under their names would be more sensible about these things, rather than reject it out of hand just because someone disagreed with them.

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IFHE is a waste, IMO, on the new RU "CAs."

 

The new RU "CAs" are AP focused ships.

+ Special AP bounce angles.

+ Super High AP Pen for their size, i.e. Bagration's 180mm AP has vastly superior penetration performance than Baltimore's 203mm AP.

+ Short fusing, i.e. less Overpens.

+ And most importantly, unlike USN CAs and RN CLs that have special AP factors, RU Cruisers have the shell flight characteristics to make it work even at range.

+ New RU "CAs" have even superior shell fight characteristics than the old 180mm, 220mm guns.

 

These things should be using AP most of the time.  HE for DDs and bow on BBs, but other than those situations, you should be slinging AP.

On paper, IFHE will benefit a umber of them but in reality, you're using AP most of the time, so it's a waste to spend 4pts for IFHE for shells you're not going to use much of, shells that these new ships aren't oriented towards.

 

Edit:  Some Artillery Charts I compiled for previous threads.

180mm guns from new Bagration and Tallinn not only have superior shell flight characteristics than IX Dmitri Donskoi's old 180mm, they also have superior AP Pen even at range.

0oR66Ok.jpg

Comparing Bagration's 180mm to Kutuzo'vs 152mm.  The RU 152mm guns are fantastic to use at range.  Low shell arcs, high velocity shells, they get to the target quickly.  The new RU 180mm is even better than that.

UurJ8c3.jpg

Mikoyan's 180mm compared to Kirov's 180mm, Furutaka's 203mm.  Mikoyan has better shell flight characteristics for her 180mm than Kirov's 180s.  She also has better AP Penetration by a significant margin.  Better than even Furutaka's 203mm AP.

gHGlAZc.jpg

 

If you're not heavily using AP on these new RU "CAs" then you may as well keep using the old RU Cruisers like Budyonny, Schors, Chapayev, Dmitri Donskoi, and ignore the new ships altogether.

IMO, IFHE is a waste on these ships.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, eagle_lance said:

I was referring to tiers 8 and up. I've found the fire chance nerf to be too high and not worth 4 points. Many battleships are covered in sections of armor over 38mm which you can't pen with 152-180mm guns with ifhe. If you aim super structure you will still get damage and maintain a very high fire chance. 

agreed. 

I've found myself rarely playing my old IFHE ships in general now, the cost to change everything is to high.

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