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mozoilla02

Wargamming Needs to Fix BB Over Pens

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Hi everyone this is my first post on the forum ever so if I posted this in the wrong place or something forgive me I am new. Now to what I want to talk about, CAN WARGAMMING FIX BB OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE. I just had a game as gneisenau on two brothers where I rushed down middle and my first encounter was a shchors which I shot at point blank range with all my guns. I got 3 over pens luckily my teammate behind me killed him, I then proceeded to one shot a Pyotr velikiy and a new york, after that i then encounter another cruiser at close range. He gave me full broadside and I shot him with all six guns and guess what? 4 over pens, he then torps and burns me too death. I can one shot bbs with my guns but then cruisers are immune to my guns. This issues needs to be addressed and I just wanted to hear everyones opinions on bb over pens on full broadside cruisers. Also if you say get better at aiming, again I was able to aim well enough to one shot two bbs.

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15 minutes ago, mozoilla02 said:

CAN WARGAMMING FIX BB OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE.

Wait for them to angle slightly; that should give your shells enough space to arm. Nothing wrong with your aiming, it's just timing.

Edited by warheart1992
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Just now, warheart1992 said:

Wait for them to angle slightly; that should give your shells enough space to arm 

This, or change to HE.

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19 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Wait for them to angle slightly; that should give your shells enough space to arm. Nothing wrong with your aiming, it's just timing.

oh i wish someone told me this 1000 games ago this actually makes alot of sense to me now thanks for the tip

 

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You know, I don't know what they tweaked about penetration values, but they are becoming ridiculous. Just had a perfect broadside on an Emile Bertin at 6-7k for a whooping 9 overpens with a cumulative 14 overpens in total... 0 full pens in 3 full 10 barrel volleys from and Iron Duke from distances between 14 to 6 km. 

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13 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

You know, I don't know what they tweaked about penetration values, but they are becoming ridiculous. Just had a perfect broadside on an Emile Bertin at 6-7k for a whooping 9 overpens with a cumulative 14 overpens in total... 0 full pens in 3 full 10 barrel volleys from and Iron Duke from distances between 14 to 6 km. 

Because Emile Bertin's side armor is like 16mm at max. Iron Duke's 343mm shells a little more than 57mm of armor to arm, so not all too difficult to see why you only scored overpens.

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1 hour ago, mozoilla02 said:

Hi everyone this is my first post on the forum ever so if I posted this in the wrong place or something forgive me I am new. Now to what I want to talk about, CAN WARGAMMING FIX BB OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE. I just had a game as gneisenau on two brothers where I rushed down middle and my first encounter was a shchors which I shot at point blank range with all my guns. I got 3 over pens luckily my teammate behind me killed him, I then proceeded to one shot a Pyotr velikiy and a new york, after that i then encounter another cruiser at close range. He gave me full broadside and I shot him with all six guns and guess what? 4 over pens, he then torps and burns me too death. I can one shot bbs with my guns but then cruisers are immune to my guns. This issues needs to be addressed and I just wanted to hear everyones opinions on bb over pens on full broadside cruisers. Also if you say get better at aiming, again I was able to aim well enough to one shot two bbs.

There brutal right now .

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1 hour ago, mozoilla02 said:

I just had a game as gneisenau

There's your answer; this is a Gneisenau problem, rather than a class-specific problem. Since it only has 6 guns and very poor dispersion you will tend to miss the citadel on smaller targets and overpen. Also, one-shotting other BBs in Gneisenau isn't exactly common either anyways, given the limited broadside and poor dispersion. Does the Gneisenau need a buff? I don't know, but in any case your anecdote is not representative of the average BB. Same tier BBs like the Sinop, Nagato, and Colorado have no problem citadeling most cruisers at reasonable ranges because they can actually get the shells to go where they want, and have enough shells to compensate for any that go wide. 

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1 hour ago, mozoilla02 said:

I just had a game as gneisenau on two brothers where I rushed down middle and my first encounter was a shchors which I shot at point blank range with all my guns.

Funny, I just had a game in my Bismarck last night where I probably dumped 3-4 full AP salvos against a broadside Shchors at about 10km. I had 14 overpens, no citadels. I didn't even get the kill.

I don't think any cruisers should be immune to citadels at that kind of range and angle. One salvo, two tops, should be enough to punish that kind of gameplay. I wasn't able to focus the important targets because of the time I wasted on him

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1 hour ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

I don't think any cruisers should be immune to citadels at that kind of range and angle. One salvo, two tops, should be enough to punish that kind of gameplay. I wasn't able to focus the important targets because of the time I wasted on him

Yeah! No need to actually hit the citadel, one salvo two tops should kill a cruiser! That'll show them!

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3 hours ago, mozoilla02 said:

Hi everyone this is my first post on the forum ever so if I posted this in the wrong place or something forgive me I am new. Now to what I want to talk about, CAN WARGAMMING FIX BB OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE. I just had a game as gneisenau on two brothers where I rushed down middle and my first encounter was a shchors which I shot at point blank range with all my guns. I got 3 over pens luckily my teammate behind me killed him, I then proceeded to one shot a Pyotr velikiy and a new york, after that i then encounter another cruiser at close range. He gave me full broadside and I shot him with all six guns and guess what? 4 over pens, he then torps and burns me too death. I can one shot bbs with my guns but then cruisers are immune to my guns. This issues needs to be addressed and I just wanted to hear everyones opinions on bb over pens on full broadside cruisers. Also if you say get better at aiming, again I was able to aim well enough to one shot two bbs.

Don't aim at the cruiser.  Aim at the water right next to the cruiser so that your shells arm earlier and slow down more.  This stops overpens.

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3 hours ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

Funny, I just had a game in my Bismarck last night where I probably dumped 3-4 full AP salvos against a broadside Shchors at about 10km. I had 14 overpens, no citadels. I didn't even get the kill.

I don't think any cruisers should be immune to citadels at that kind of range and angle. One salvo, two tops, should be enough to punish that kind of gameplay. I wasn't able to focus the important targets because of the time I wasted on him

Are you sure your aim wasn't too high? Or perhaps your RNG was just particularly bad? Or perhaps the desync issue made it so that your shells landed further behind the ship than it looked. In any case, these anecdotes aren't enough to make a general statement. 

Also, 14 overpens is still around half of his HP, I'd say that's getting punished. I don't know why people have this mentality that BBs SHOULD dev-strike cruisers whenever they show broadside. It's not like BBs are guaranteed to get punished to that level when they make positioning errors. 

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I played a bit of Kongou and I had fun landing dev strike or citadels on, pretty much everything that was broadside.

 

Overpen isn't an issue, your aiming (and RNG sometime) is

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When WG made the 'Great DD AP Nerf',,, they actually nerfed it for all the DD/CL/CA ships.  It is beyond stupid, even for an arcade game.  I don't care how many armchair ship/ammo designers out there try to justify over pens.

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26 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

When WG made the 'Great DD AP Nerf',,, they actually nerfed it for all the DD/CL/CA ships.  It is beyond stupid, even for an arcade game.  I don't care how many armchair ship/ammo designers out there try to justify over pens.

No they didn't.

This only affected destroyers getting hit with battleship AP and it only converted what would have been a regular penetration into overpen damage.

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2 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

No they didn't.

This only affected destroyers getting hit with battleship AP and it only converted what would have been a regular penetration into overpen damage.

Well, maybe 2 overpen damages.

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8 hours ago, mozoilla02 said:

Hi everyone this is my first post on the forum ever so if I posted this in the wrong place or something forgive me I am new. Now to what I want to talk about, CAN WARGAMMING FIX BB OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE. I just had a game as gneisenau on two brothers where I rushed down middle and my first encounter was a shchors which I shot at point blank range with all my guns. I got 3 over pens luckily my teammate behind me killed him, I then proceeded to one shot a Pyotr velikiy and a new york, after that i then encounter another cruiser at close range. He gave me full broadside and I shot him with all six guns and guess what? 4 over pens, he then torps and burns me too death. I can one shot bbs with my guns but then cruisers are immune to my guns. This issues needs to be addressed and I just wanted to hear everyones opinions on bb over pens on full broadside cruisers. Also if you say get better at aiming, again I was able to aim well enough to one shot two bbs.

That is how AP works.  It is doing what it is supposed to do.

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If AP is overpenning the citadel, I just under the front MB. WG did render the MBs' hoist armor and all, so that can get you pens and mostly with the Russian cruisers, found that was the only reliable way to get citadels in my BBs.

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6 hours ago, Aduial said:

Are you sure your aim wasn't too high? Or perhaps your RNG was just particularly bad? Or perhaps the desync issue made it so that your shells landed further behind the ship than it looked. In any case, these anecdotes aren't enough to make a general statement. 

Also, 14 overpens is still around half of his HP, I'd say that's getting punished. I don't know why people have this mentality that BBs SHOULD dev-strike cruisers whenever they show broadside. It's not like BBs are guaranteed to get punished to that level when they make positioning errors. 

My aim was true, but I guess I didn't take desync into account. I wish WG was a little more forthright about how they intend to solve that.

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11 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

Because Emile Bertin's side armor is like 16mm at max. Iron Duke's 343mm shells a little more than 57mm of armor to arm, so not all too difficult to see why you only scored overpens.

For lack of any better explanation I'll accept that, but on those strict terms it would mean you could never expect to citadel an Emil Bertin with a 343mm at flat angles... which is not empirically true.

Penetration has a RNG roll involved? as I understand it deals with fixed values.

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3 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

For lack of any better explanation I'll accept that, but on those strict terms it would mean you could never expect to citadel an Emil Bertin with a 343mm at flat angles... which is not empirically true.

Penetration has a RNG roll involved? as I understand it deals with fixed values.

There is a chance to score a citadel, but not really because of RNG. When your shell hits short it fuses once it hits water, and assuming the fuse timer ran down at the same time that the shell is within the citadel, it would be counted as a citadel hit.

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14 hours ago, mozoilla02 said:

 OVERPENS ON BROADSIDE CRUISERS AT CLOSE RANGE. 

Annoying in the game but historically realistic.

Using the US Navy's 1940s "Universal" armor penetration formula.

T = (0.000469) * W0.5506 * D-0.6521 * V1.1001

Iowa 16-inch shells

penetration weight diameter velocity
32.61 2700 16 2500

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I understand The mechanics in the game for over pens, and I understand the necessity, I simply wonder what  a dd or light cruiser would look like in real life when a sixteen inch shell flew clean through ‘em.  Especially a sixteen inch hole that entered above the waterline, but came out below...,

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11 hours ago, Lert said:

Yeah! No need to actually hit the citadel, one salvo two tops should kill a cruiser! That'll show them!

I mean...Smolensk vs Conqueror HE is pretty much that, with the addition of citadels at any angle thrown in. Actually hitting the little buggers can be a challenge though.

:cat_cool:What. No I don't only play while drunk. Sometimes I'm only half drunk.

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7 minutes ago, MerrikHyvornin said:

I understand The mechanics in the game for over pens, and I understand the necessity, I simply wonder what  a dd or light cruiser would look like in real life when a sixteen inch shell flew clean through ‘em.  Especially a sixteen inch hole that entered above the waterline, but came out below...,

If you read battle reports from DDs unless the shell hits something solid it goes straight through. One DD at Battle off Samar took 40 hits from Battleships and Cruisers and was still operational. When they changed over to HE the DD was wrecked immediately.

 

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