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Mazerius

Tallinn: IFHE or No?

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Just got the Tallinn, great ship. I am torn over whether to get IFHE or not. I think 180mm guns would benefit--but the AP shells on the Tallinn are so good, not sure if I'll be using HE enough to justify the 4 points. Thoughts?

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Only the CC will know since the ship is so new for most people. I am sure we will find out soon. 

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I dropped the Murmansk cpt in Mikoyan. Same 180's, I think. He had IFHE. Surprised the heck out of me to start getting cits with HE! Given a choice, I would rather have CE than IFHE. RU cruisers can't afford to get hit.

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Based on what Flamu said in his Tallinn video, HE is more as an afterthought to get fire damage, opting to not use IFHE. AP is what you wanna be mostly shooting to take advantage of the favourable angles and fuses. That said, he is just one CC so opinions may vary.

 

Edited by warheart1992

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Tallinn, Bagration, Riga I feel do not need IFHE.  I'm using AP a lot of the time with them.  If I'm using HE it's typically only against DDs at the start of the game.

 

Throw on DE on Tallinn if you want for a tier 3 trait.  Radar has no value in PVE and she doesn't have Repair Party like Bagration does.  Because of this, there's no pressing need for SI for more consumable charges in PVE.

 

If you're not heavily using Tallinn's fabulous AP, it's a massive waste.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, DeathLord1969 said:

That's unnecessary with the new RU "CAs" because they are heavily oriented to using AP most of the time.

 

Their AP shells from the new ships have lots of special gimmicks making it worthwhile in using them a lot.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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12 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Their AP shells from the new ships have lots of special gimmicks making it worthwhile in using them a lot.

Please explain.

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29 minutes ago, DeathLord1969 said:

Please explain.

The new Soviet CAs (Tallin, Riga, Petro) have improved AP pen angles (better than normal cruisers, but less than the US CAs) so their autobounce checks start at a sharper angle from perpendicular, and they have shortened AP fuse times (0.022 seconds from the dev blog, compared to 0.033 seconds for most AP shells). 

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16 hours ago, Mazerius said:

Just got the Tallinn, great ship. I am torn over whether to get IFHE or not. I think 180mm guns would benefit--but the AP shells on the Tallinn are so good, not sure if I'll be using HE enough to justify the 4 points. Thoughts?

Clear as day and simple as I can... Ships at or  above 150MM.

  • IFHE option
    • Depends how you're going to play her... Me personally, I rather use AP for %80 of my target selection.
    • The higher the caliber (on cruisers not BBs), the less Ricos and non HE Pen you'll have
    • IFHE is not a good idea for 200MM BB caliber guns.
  • No IFHE option
    • Your DMG will come from fire OR AP.. HE pens well decrease a lot or only %10 Pen rate

This is dependent on which path you choose to play... NOW,

Ships below  149MM and below to 100MM Caliber guns...These guns can be used by DDs and cruisers

  • Fire builds all the way for cruisers..
  • IFHE mandatory for DDs for the noted calibers...
    • The lower the caliber guns the more relient your are on IFHE for DDs.

The choice is yours, I am happy to supply the information to aide in your educated guess..

GL

  

Edited by Navalpride33

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According to the LWM guide a few weeks back, it is pretty much always recommended to take IFHE for 180mm rifles, but with the strong AP, it may not be the best use of 4 points.  I think IFHE should be a 3 point skill, and if 'twas then I'd say take it; it isn't, so I would say to just look for something that may be a better option, then decide.

I'd know more, but the 11 containers I got for completing the last set of directives trolled me hard (105 tokens in 11 containers) so I don't have Tallinn yet.  Looks now like I'll have to grind the tree for Riga.

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Yeah, most of us aren't going to get the Tallinn with tokens, the RNG on the Soviet containers is silly low. 

 

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7 hours ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

The new Soviet CAs (Tallin, Riga, Petro) have improved AP pen angles (better than normal cruisers, but less than the US CAs) so their autobounce checks start at a sharper angle from perpendicular, and they have shortened AP fuse times (0.022 seconds from the dev blog, compared to 0.033 seconds for most AP shells). 

Something I want to add to this... There are already other Cruisers in the game with special AP values.

USN CAs have special bounce angles.

Tech Tree RN CL AP shells have special bounce angles, short fusing for basically no overpens.

 

But the new RU "CA" AP shells ramp it up even more to make AP worthy of primary shell selection.

The AP Pen is ridiculously high, even at range.  Just 2 examples with Artillery Charts from recent threads I was involved with when looking at what the new RU "CAs" can and can't do.

yF68MGl.jpg

lVjlAE7.jpg

The older versions of the 180mm guns as found on Kirov and Dmitri Donskoi fall drastically behind on AP Pen.

 

Another thing is that RU Cruisers in general have fantastic shell flight characteristics, making it a pleasure to engage targets at range.  This is a key difference with the New RU CA AP performance compared to special AP from USN CAs and Tech Tree RN CLs.  The latter two ship types have awful to mediocre shell flight characteristics, while all RU Cruiser guns are adept at range.  In the past I used to call RU Cruiser Guns "Russian Railguns."  The 152mm, 180mm, and 220mm from the old RU Cruiser Line were fantastic at range.  Meanwhile, a Leningrad will troll a Baltimore at 10km and the USN CA player will struggle to hit.

 

The new RU CA shells have even better shell flight characteristics.  Look at how Mikoyan's 180mm AP flies faster, more level than Kirov's 180mm.  Mikoyan even trivializes Furutaka's 203mm AP.  VIII Bagration and Tallinn's new AP performance outstrip's old IX Dmitri Donskoi's AP performance as well as having even faster and flatter flying shells.

 

Meanwhile USN CA and RN CL shells are so floaty you can see parachutes deploy when the shells begin their descent.

 

The new RU CA AP shells will get Citadels on other Cruisers at ranges that will surprise you, ranges that USN CAs and RN CLs can't even dare to reliably engage in.  The ease of use with these guns at range means you can farm AP Pen on BBs even at range as you pick out superstructure, whereas USN CAs and RN CLs struggle to reliably engage at that distance.  The special AP bounce angles and short fusing will make this even more feasible.

 

Now, I'm not saying that HE can be ignored altogether.  You still want HE against DDs and BBs coming straight at you.  But in all other cases, you want to be using AP with the new RU CAs.

Will IFHE be of some use to these new RU CAs?  On paper, yes, it provides the same HE Pen Benefits against certain armor thresholds.  But IMO, with the reality of using AP most of the time, spending 4 pts on IFHE for shells you're hardly going to use is a big waste.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 1

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3 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Yeah, most of us aren't going to get the Tallinn with tokens, the RNG on the Soviet containers is silly low. 

 

Ya, they screwed it up by having it go in sequence. I have 300 tokens atm. They never should have done the sequence crap.

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10 hours ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

The new Soviet CAs (Tallin, Riga, Petro) have improved AP pen angles (better than normal cruisers, but less than the US CAs) so their autobounce checks start at a sharper angle from perpendicular, and they have shortened AP fuse times (0.022 seconds from the dev blog, compared to 0.033 seconds for most AP shells). 

What about the P. Bagration? I've not been getting high damage in that. I do better with my Mainz.

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On 5/20/2020 at 11:00 AM, DeathLord1969 said:

What about the P. Bagration? I've not been getting high damage in that. I do better with my Mainz.

Just like with Tallinn... AP most of the time except against DDs or bow on heavy armor targets.  Personally I still try to close range with Bagration, Tallinn for torpedo use and get some good damage.

 

Mainz?  Mainz is a fantastic damage dealer and will easily outpace most of her Tier VIII Cruiser peers.  Keep HE slotted and herpa-derp-pen everything, try to close range and use her ungoldly amount of torps for more damage.  She's very easy.

Personally, here's how my Tier VIII Cruisers stack up in order of Dmg Avg for Co-op.  Albemarle, Amalfi, Charles Martel are the bottom three that didn't make it within the window of the screenshot.  Mainz is effective and stupidly easy to use.  Her very high pen 150mm guns make her extremely consistent and because she doesn't need to take IFHE like Cleveland, etc. do for her shells to regularly HE Pen, she ends up farming more Fires and Fire damage.  Not even my Bagration and my beloved Prinz Eugen can keep up with Mainz.

0Ot9Foa.jpg

The new RU CAs need proper shell selection and shot placement.  Mainz just needs "1" key and keep pressing the LMB.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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21 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Just like with Tallinn... AP most of the time except against DDs or bow on heavy armor targets.  Personally I still try to close range with Bagration, Tallinn for torpedo use and get some good damage.

 

I'll give that a shot next time I load it up. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, DeathLord1969 said:

I'll give that a shot next time I load it up. Thanks.

If we were talking about the older, normal RU Cruisers like Dmitri Donskoi, Schors, Budyonny that actually spam HE all the time, IFHE does have a lot of merit.  But the specially boosted AP of these new RU "CAs" make it worthwhile to use AP in a lot of situations.

 

Regarding closing range with a RU Cruiser for torps, just be careful.  Tallinn & Bagration have an Icebreaker bow that will protect the forward citadel bulkhead, but if the BB shells go a bit higher, you'll eat Pens.  It's not as bad as Citadel damage, but it can rack up some damage on you.  Weigh the costs & benefits, and how likely you are to pull it off, before going in.

 

I don't even suggest angling.  BB shells that scatter and hit above the waterline armor belt will Overmatch the rest of the sides of the hull.

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