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NoZoupForYou

Eliminating Static Gameplay

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A continuation of the BB talk.  Incentivizing BBs to push makes the gameplay better all around.

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Only way to get BB's more involved is to reduce their range. Why would they get closer if they can shoot 27km?

Reduce second hand vision on all ships. There have been many arguments about limiting a CV's vision to his eyes only and and only showing the team where the enemy is on the minimap. A dd 11km away should be able to see a BB clearly, a BB using the DD as his eyes should not be as clear at 22km away. Distort vision and you will create more interactive fights.

I am an HE spammer, most of my games rely on HE spam. It's a horrible experience to be neutered all game with fires and managing DCP's as a BB. One wrong torp and a misused DCP might be 30k damage.

The issue is vision. A ship using another ships eyes should not see the target as well as the closer ship.

 

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Why not just title your video "Making World of Warships all about battleships - keep buffing them until they are unquestionably the strongest class [even though statistically they already are]."

Ironically, the suggestions of buffing secondaries is going to result in more battleships getting wrecked trying to use them (see the average GK player) and even more make BB players stick in back.

And if making HE more effective at range is your plan, do you think it's more likely for:

  • Battleships to push
  • Cruisers to sit further back at optimal ranges, resulting in battleships that push getting wrecked faster

Anyways I would LOVE your changes because it means more battleship players will stupidly yolo and it'll be easier for me to wrack up massive damage games. Encouraging players to act foolish means more high damage games, which would be great.

If you want to change the meta, you should instead tell battleship players to do things like:

  • Not damage control single fires
  • Run FP/CE
  • Use their minimap
  • Have a plan for their push that doesn't involve #yolo and dying

 

 

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37 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

A continuation of the BB talk.  Incentivizing BBs to push makes the gameplay better all around.

the only way you'd get BB's to be aggressive is to completely remove DD's and Torpedoes from the game......  Other than that, Static they are because there is no value, even after all but eliminating DD's with Radar and Planes, for them to over come the reality torpedoes create......   They have the Abilene Paradox real bad......... i.e. "Action Anxiety" and "Psychological reversal of risk and certainty" ----  "The greatest teacher, failure is....." 

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3 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Run FP/CE

Which imply no more secondary bb. The ifhe rework already killed French secondary BB at tier 9 and lower and American are fairly less powerful than before...

 

either baked in CE (since almost every ships take it regardless) or baked in manual control of secondaries imo.

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Just now, Y_Nagato said:

Which imply no more secondary bb. The ifhe rework already killed French secondary BB at tier 9 and lower and American are fairly less powerful than before...

 

either baked in CE (since almost every ships take it regardless) or baked in manual control of secondaries imo.

The only way you are going to get players who run SE on their TX battleships to take FP/CE is to force them to. It doesn't matter what you bake in, unless you make it impossible to take the wrong skills people are going to still choose suboptimal builds.

This whole "make bbs even more braindead again" thing is an XY problem http://xyproblem.info/

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8 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

The only way you are going to get players who run SE on their TX battleships to take FP/CE is to force them to. It doesn't matter what you bake in, unless you make it impossible to take the wrong skills people are going to still choose suboptimal builds.

This whole "make bbs even more braindead again" thing is an XY problem http://xyproblem.info/

You can’t force people into not being stupid. The best you can do is force them to grind and get experience before going to the higher tier, but WG seems to like the idea of “fast lane” with the newer line.

 

and now there is basically one optimal build. Secondary are meme only sadly. 

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After reading a lot of responses, I no longer agree with Zoups suggestion completely.    I believe the only solution to BBs hanging back is to NERF, significantly, fire damage. 

Right now there are just TOO many HE Flameslingers.   Requires almost zero skill,,,, just hide behind an island and adjust the hose.   BBs can't disengage quickly so they get burned to the ground.   Reduce Fire Damage by say 50% and BBs would push.  There would still be plenty of pew pew HE Flamslingers to make life miserable for them, but tolerable.

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1 minute ago, Y_Nagato said:

You can’t force people into not being stupid. The best you can do is force them to grind and get experience before going to the higher tier, but WG seems to like the idea of “fast lane” with the newer line.

 

and now there is basically one optimal build. Secondary are meme only sadly. 

You'd think that playing a lot of games would result in people learning but it's obviously not the case.

Most players are bad at this game. Regardless of game count.

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Well this is all just wishes and fishes talk, you would have to fix the bad playerbase 1st. When 10 out of 12 are 300PR or less with average damage up 10 to 20K on a random team well...

  Only way I see fixing it is making every map ocean so there's no foxhole islands to sit behind,  And you can make different levels of fog or haze that limits visibility to 15 to 7k and get rid of shared spotting.

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Power creep of ordnance...Mainly.. 

  • AP
  • Fire
  • Planes
  • Secondaries

All adds to the stale game play...

What you're asking is overwhelming domination against all ship class, to where your opponent have no counter to your attacks...  This is a terrible idea.. A complete distorted view that will have the opposite result.

Fire is the main DMG because BBs complained about

  • Torps
  • Planes
  • HE pens

Thanks the these complaints...

  • Torps and floods nerfs
  • Planes worthless against BB
    • Mainly bad AA mechanic
    • It takes 30 torps to sink a BB
      • Over 20 DB strikes
  • HE Pens are non-existent for 157MM and below caliber guns against +2 heavy armored targets.
  • Thank IFHE policy change for the increase in fire builds.

You're also asking for more powerful weapons, remember Zoup, more powerful ordnance have unintended consequences. (like shorter matches). I do not want shorter battles in Random (like CO-OP short) because of your power creep idea Zoup.

Also, the term "hit harder" is the synonym  for BUFFING. Its common sense Zoup, you can't hit something harder without "Adding something" or "increasing the power of,"

Its the same thing.

Hydro ZOup?? Seriously... I abandoned my hydro build for the Worcester, do to power creep of AP shells... I am to far from torps that its a wasted consumable, I am playing the Worcester like a HIV... Hydro on high tier cruisers is no longer worth it due to ordnance power creep... 

In summery Zoup... Your medicine is worse then disease.. Terrible idea overall IMO...

Edited by Navalpride33
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'Please make the game less static' is an interesting argument to make while playing a smoke Minotaur specifically designed to blunt pushes!

 

Battleships are fine, but there are lots of mechanical reasons not to push in any ships -

  • Due to shell speed vs. ship speed kiting remains incredibly strong, in my opinion too strong
  • Due to general broadside vulnerability (all ships) pushing up tends to expose more broadside angles, battleships are particularly good at penalizing this
  • Due to maths, torpedoes are far more effective on ships coming toward you over ships moving away, shoot a 60kt torp at something moving 30kt away and it's basically halved your range and closing speed
  • Due to any leading ship getting focused
  • Due to any leading ship getting focused, and then the carrier piling on the pain with near instant redeployment of force
  • Due to stealth being degraded by carrier abundance, surprise pushing is much harder
  • Due to there being no points to capture in Standard Battle

WG aren't going to change this significantly.

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19 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Which imply no more secondary bb. The ifhe rework already killed French secondary BB at tier 9 and lower and American are fairly less powerful than before...

either baked in CE (since almost every ships take it regardless) or baked in manual control of secondaries imo.

Yes, I think this is right.

Making German BBs choose between a tank build and a secondary build cripples them, and reduces them to a joke line. You can't brawl if you can't tank, and you can't brawl if you don't have secondaries. German BBs are forced to choose which way they want to fail, at the one thing they are supposed to be good at.

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1 minute ago, SeaborneSumo said:

After reading a lot of responses, I no longer agree with Zoups suggestion completely.    I believe the only solution to BBs hanging back is to NERF, significantly, fire damage. 

Right now there are just TOO many HE Flameslingers.   Requires almost zero skill,,,, just hide behind an island and adjust the hose.   BBs can't disengage quickly so they get burned to the ground.   Reduce Fire Damage by say 50% and BBs would push.  There would still be plenty of pew pew HE Flamslingers to make life miserable for them, but tolerable.

Why not just give battleships immunity to all damage?

And battleships can already more or less reduce fire damage by 50% by running the right modules, flags, and commander skills. 60 seconds base can be reduced with -15% from basics of survivability, -15% from the damage control mod 2, and -20% from the flag results in ~35 second fires.

Add in fire prevention and fire damage is reduced significantly.

Just now, mofton said:

'Please make the game less static' is an interesting argument to make while playing a smoke Minotaur specifically designed to blunt pushes!

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this.

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All maps are ocean with a massive whirlpool. No static games as everyone gets sucked to the middle! Problem solved!

I kid of course.

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10 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Why not just give battleships immunity to all damage?

And battleships can already more or less reduce fire damage by 50% by running the right modules, flags, and commander skills. 60 seconds base can be reduced with -15% from basics of survivability, -15% from the damage control mod 2, and -20% from the flag results in ~35 second fires.

Add in fire prevention and fire damage is reduced significantly.

Yet, with all this so called 'immunity' BBs are burned to the ground by multiple HE Flameslingers per match.  Do you even listen to what people are saying? 

BBs hang back because there is TOO much HE Fire Damage.   This is because Fire has been TOO strong for a LONG time.  Its time to nerf it.

But, for the Flameslinger mains who love to hide and fire HE from smoke or behind and Island,,,, I guess that takes away the pew pew toy.

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It's a combat mechanic that fires actually burn a battleship down. Because a cruiser has to have a fighting chance.

Just like a DD has a fighting chance with concealment.

However, if you took away 🔥, or reduce it further to manageble like flooding, then BBs should be able to go in and do their Job. Tank and attack large ships.

But from a cruiser perspective, again they would be vulnerable. And CVs can't stack damage.

Bottom line, you can't really affect one mechanic and expect another ship type to be able to adapt.

I think we need to start at the apex predator of the ship lines. CVs need good alpha so one strike is enough to cripple or sink a ship. Flood chance should be 100%, but a full health BB can manage it. HE bombs should have great initial alpha as well. AP bombs too.

The catch is AA across the board should make the CV player pay dearly if the target has good AA at 75% and above. This would be most effective with ships geared to great AA and not those that historically had terrible AA. WG can use the DPM model to rate it based on RTS. Yes, we would essentially bring back old AA.

Next is Battleships, other than national flavor, fire chance should not be needed. Instead initial HE alpha. But this would only work on DDs and cruisers effectively. BBs initial defense from air is above, but surface would be based on secbat range. Main guns reload a long time. So BBs can fire on each other at range, but regular pen mechanics apply. They have to get to their mid-range number to be most effective. So any brawl is inevitable.

The balance concession for BBs that have no real means to brawl is more effective mid-range alpha.

They should only switch to HE for DDs or light cruisers. Heavies and their juiced cousins are treated like BBs.

Cruisers, the most flexible ship type, but the most vulnerable. Concealment should be better. This helps with escape. Some cruisers like light one's should have smoke for escape but like limited to that and not for invisifire.

Torpedo alpha should be very high and Max torp range should match their mid-range if a light, and 3/4s range if heavy and above. That means Russian cruisers should get love. As much as I like hitting them, I feel dirty doing it.

Cruiser guns should be good across the board. HE will be an option z but fire chance will be a minor annoyance. And to add an incentive.

HE fired reveals the ship a full minute and any AP fired only reveals for 30 secs. Torpedoes are spotted by the usual distances, but unless you have steering gears upgrades, you are going to be hit. Concealment of torps is based on two things size and speed. WG will have to make 610mm detectable at 1.5km so long as torpedo speed is at 65kts. However, accel it and you double that number. That should be the trade-off.

As much as I like cruisers dumping fire, there should be more incentive to dump AP.

So reward more for damage to secondary batteries and AA with AP. But reduce that reward for doing it with HE.

Now how is a cruiser supposed to defend itself from a BB? They are still able to Use HE, but not in spam form. If a cruiser captain did his homework and hit the BB secondaries, then less guns are shooting back. It's now his DPM vs BB DPM. And since range is best tactic against a BB, setting a fire is permanent damage, just not as many can be made. Just 2 like floods but longer duration. It can't be healed back. So no zombie ships. Only AP can be repaired. And repair party can replace destroyed tubes and AA.

Those helps DDs.

DDs need 2 heals. Really good concealment and their smoke is excellent across the board. They can invisifire but only under the current rules.

However, to counter the tricky DD that does his ship silhouette is flashed with his guns. But this phenomenon can only be observed in binoculars mode.

This rule will apply to any and all ships capable of invisifire or are sharing smoke. So long as noone else is looking online the player looking can'see the ship. But here is the catch. No target lock. You have to manually guess.

DDs should be able to heal their tubes and primary guns, but any with secondary guns will not be able to heal secondary. They can heal AA.

To prevent throttle jockeying, that instead of hindering acceleration, put a cool down on the telegraph. So a player can only do it once per 3 minutes. It's a lifesaver not a shooter option.

Anyway, those are my ideas based on observations.

Yes Euro DDs need smoke. Yes Russian torps need more range. Yes Smollys are delicate, but I didn't design it.

Yes Henry drivers will put me on their list of bad guys.

But DD players will like me. A fee CV players for sure. BB players just need to go to the gym. Start that cardio. Work on those legs. Get the lead out.

Because a battleship battles it doesn't camp to eat cookies and cake. Cruisers should cruise and DDs should destroy as their name implies.

Anyway, that's all I got. ( Steps off soapbox and puts away tricorn hat. Walks off with Minutemen militia.)

At least let us have boarding parties so we can take ship waifus from our opponents. Then we can ransom them for steel.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, NoZoupForYou said:

A continuation of the BB talk.  Incentivizing BBs to push makes the gameplay better all around.

Yeah I've stated a few times over the years that one way to "make BBs great again" is kill the range. Not a popular idea I know but if we can't snipe from 26km out then we have to move closer to engage...problem solved!

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1 hour ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

Only way to get BB's more involved is to reduce their range. Why would they get closer if they can shoot 27km?

This.

No BB that can fire from 27 plus KM away with accuracy will ever move up. BB have always and will always play from as Far away as possible since the early days.

Doesn't matter if there are no DD left, no CV, or anything else their gameplay is always the same.

BBs should all have a max range of 20km with greatly reduced accuracy that gradually becomes more accurate the closer they are to targets. When they are doing no damage from the max range then they will stop the static gameplay.

Edited by Vaffu
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Battleships, destroyers, cruisers all face a daunting feeling most games. You have to play on the razors edge.. If you're too far back you don't contribute if you get too close you get erased very fast.... I play dds and cvs well but just OK at cruiser /battleships... And I see it all the time either kiting battleships (not tanking, not giving AA bubbles) dds just farming is just another story. Lol

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sorry OP you said enough this week...you just want to dumb-down WoWS to get part of your followers happy. It does not matter what type of ships you pick to trash or to make them invulnerable, nor should we consider most of BB mains responsible of your posts...you already set your reputation, sorry to say that to you. A CC should get above the crowd and be more respectful to the community. 

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9 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

This.

No BB that can fire from 27 plus KM away with accuracy will ever move up. BB have always and will always play from as Far away as possible since the early days.

Doesn't matter if there are no DD left, no CV, or anything else their gameplay is always the same.

BBs should all have a max range of 20km with greatly reduced accuracy that gradually becomes more accurate the closer they are to targets. When they are doing no damage from the max range then they will stop the static gameplay.

With CL like Smolensk that can push their range to 19km, hard to blame BB to be that far back.

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56 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

baked in CE

You could make an argument for that now that it's 10% for every ship. 

8 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

No BB that can fire from 27 plus KM away with accuracy will ever move up.

You should be wary of making absolute statements. Some datum will always come along to disprove them, and then you have to start making exception after exception until what you started with becomes meaningless Bee Ess. 

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Most people love playing Secondary Build BB's. (short range) Really good players won't (long range). Winning and fun don't often intersect in this game.

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1 minute ago, loco_max said:

sorry OP you said enough this week...you just want to dumb-down WoWS to get part of your followers happy. It does not matter what type of ships you pick to trash or to make them invulnerable, nor should we consider most of BB mains responsible of your posts...you already set your reputation, sorry to say that to you. A CC should get above the crowd and be more respectful to the community. 

I failed to see how Zoup was not respectful. It is a thing that the meta is harsh on BB, especially with all those paper thin CL that can get some sort of ''ethereal armor'' against BB shells. Or that super cruiser are basically getting closer to the BB without their disadvantage. Maybe his idea are not great but still. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

You could make an argument for that now that it's 10% for every ship. 

Well, the argument of IFHE was that it was too much mandatory for some ships, thus they reworked it in order to make it more of a choice. CE is almost mandatory for all ships, and the first 4pts skills for almost every one (except CV that may take 2 3pointers first, and Brawling BB due to the need of AFT to be relevant). Baking it in would just free more space for different build, and limit the gap between commander with 10 pts captain and the one with less than that (which is especially bad for DD players).

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