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Subs and CV

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Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed.

I haven't kept up with the submarine info much since but wanted to ask if CV planes will play a role in ASW? I know planes were a big part of anti sub recon operations in WW2 and even had some attack capability with homing mines like the FIDO. I have seen videos about surface ships but just wondered about the air role since ASW is one of those things that requires good coordination between all parties in a fleet.

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ive seen cv dev strike surfaced subs with rockets i dont think anything regarding depth charges has been mentioned, it seems only a handful of light cruisers and all dd have submarine counterplay

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3 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

ive seen cv dev strike surfaced subs with rockets i dont think anything regarding depth charges has been mentioned, it seems only a handful of light cruisers and all dd have submarine counterplay

Yeah and I think the bomb drops could be a threat if they don’t explode at water surface and instead wait fir impact with a sub. Or if the bombs hit underwater terrain near a sub they might cause some damage.

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In testing,  HE DBs and rockets were very deadly against subs.. if they were surfaced or at periscope depth.     Only problem is these subs now don't really have to surface at all?    So truth is against a good sub player CV has no counter play at all..   zero.  

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah and I think the bomb drops could be a threat if they don’t explode at water surface and instead wait fir impact with a sub. Or if the bombs hit underwater terrain near a sub they might cause some damage.

yea if a sub stays surfaced but its pretty easy to spot planes coming and just dive down to negate any damage sadly

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4 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

yea if a sub stays surfaced but its pretty easy to spot planes coming and just dive down to negate any damage sadly

Yeah if a sub is caught surfaced by pretty much anything the sub will be toast unless heavy AP shells over pennit of course. But anything HE related will be catastrophic to the sub.

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I think depth bombs should be an optional load out for CVs but certain "unicums," who imply that they hate CVs even though they are CV mains, think that they would even further imbalance the game because then subs couldn't sneak up and attack CVs with impunity because, of course, the bad CVs must die!.

Edited by Snargfargle
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1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

I think depth bombs should be an optional load out for CVs but certain "unicums" who imply that they hate CVs even though they are CV mains think that they would even further imbalance the game because then subs couldn't sneak up and attack CVs with impunity because, of course, the bad CVs must die!.

I am strongly against CVs getting depth charge armed aircraft until enough experience with subs has been gained. Because from what I have heard from various testing stages CVs can already be a significant threat to subs. So it is logical to wait and see if depth charge aircraft are needed or not.

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I am strongly against CVs getting depth charge armed aircraft until enough experience with subs has been gained. Because from what I have heard from various testing stages CVs can already be a significant threat to subs. So it is logical to wait and see if depth charge aircraft are needed or not.

That's reasonable. I'm sure the forums are going to explode with comments and suggestions when the subs finally hit the main server. It may be that depth bombs may not even be needed. Or, it might be that if they were implemented the CV would have to chose between being a sub hunter or a surface ship hunter for that sortie, which would take the pressure off one or the other ship type for at least part of the game.

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15 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah if a sub is caught surfaced by pretty much anything the sub will be toast unless heavy AP shells over pennit of course. But anything HE related will be catastrophic to the sub.

 

11 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I am strongly against CVs getting depth charge armed aircraft until enough experience with subs has been gained. Because from what I have heard from various testing stages CVs can already be a significant threat to subs. So it is logical to wait and see if depth charge aircraft are needed or not.

With the current system the only time they come to periscope depth or higher is to fire and then drop back down and they don't spend enough time there to get attacks off at them, so the only ships that have counter play are DD's and the few CL's with ASW. For everyone else the only counter is to not be spotted or out of range which is not a viable counter if there are no ASW ships left on your team.

Edited by BrushWolf
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3 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

That's reasonable. I'm sure the forums are going to explode with comments and suggestions when the subs finally hit the main server. It may be that depth bombs may not even be needed. Or, it might be that if they were implemented the CV would have to chose between being a sub hunter or a surface ship hunter for that sortie, which would take the pressure off one or the other ship type for at least part of the game.

Yeah now that would be an idea where a CV could be deadlier to subs, but in exchange were to lose either dive bombers or rockets so that they are not as much of a threat to DDs. I would imagine that sort of arrangement would go over rather well as it would have support from the DD mains in the game. So a choice in load outs is an interesting idea..

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1 minute ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

Yeah not sure why they took out oxygen. It forced strategic use of surfacing and allowed counter play. Oh well.

Yeah that would have been a good idea. Now the only way to balance them is give them a significant speed penalty when submerged.

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Thanks all. Interesting. I know a surfaced sub was extremely vulnerable but it seems like they won't have much need to surface. Seems like a flaw to me. I assume this will be a long road and balance will be ever changing.

I agree we need to see some data and a bigger picture before planes get anti sub weapons but it just seems odd that there isn't really any considering they played a big role. Maybe WG can come up with a way to give meaningful XP to CVs if they drop hydrophones that would draw DDs to a sub, thereby herding the the sub, as it were. Like spotting but actually worth something.   

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37 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

I think depth bombs should be an optional load out for CVs but certain "unicums," who imply that they hate CVs even though they are CV mains, think that they would even further imbalance the game because then subs couldn't sneak up and attack CVs with impunity because, of course, the bad CVs must die!.

I definitely like the idea of playing ASW or surface..1 at a time and you have to choose per run. 

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56 minutes ago, QQ_Whine_Moar said:

Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed.

I haven't kept up with the submarine info much since but wanted to ask if CV planes will play a role in ASW? I know planes were a big part of anti sub recon operations in WW2 and even had some attack capability with homing mines like the FIDO. I have seen videos about surface ships but just wondered about the air role since ASW is one of those things that requires good coordination between all parties in a fleet.

My experiences on the Public Test Server, while using CV's were....

1.  It is possible to hit a submarine that is surfaced or at periscope depth with all current CV ordnance (rockets, bombs and torpedoes [yeah, I did torpedo a submarine])
2.  Ships, including CV's have been able to hit submarines that are surfaced or at periscope depth with main and secondary battery fire.
3.  Depth-charge equipped ships are the most reliable and effective way to hit a submarine.
4.  Submarine vs. Submarine underwater fights are challenging because the user-interface that the player works with is not the easiest to work with, in my opinion.
     A few more bits of information and a torpedo aiming assist would be welcome when below periscope depth.
     Also, the pace of WOWs is faster than other 'classic' submarine games, such as "Silent Service".  
5.  Submerged Submarines targeting surface ships suffers the same user-interface challenges because the range to target is not being displayed.
6.  Submarines add an interesting facet to WOWs games.  And, teamwork is the key to winning, in my opinion.  :-)

My last PTS game was 2 to 3 of weeks ago.  The PTS hasn't been accessible for a while, at least not for me.  I check every couple of days.

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1 hour ago, iRA6E said:

In testing,  HE DBs and rockets were very deadly against subs.. if they were surfaced or at periscope depth. 

Seems like sub visibility would be a huge problem. Unless the sub is spotted by somebody else, how would the planes have time to line up an attack run.

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57 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

In testing,  HE DBs and rockets were very deadly against subs.. if they were surfaced or at periscope depth.     Only problem is these subs now don't really have to surface at all?    So truth is against a good sub player CV has no counter play at all..   zero.  

The key is teamwork.
CV performs usual duties and covers the team's ships and goes after anything that threatens team's ships.
BB also covers team's ASW ships and threatens or sinks anything that targets them.
Team's ASW assets "do their job" and target submarines when available and target everything else that can be fired upon, too.
All opposing ships & submarines are "targets of opportunity".
Capture and control map areas.  Win on points and by destroying all opposing team's vessels.

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49 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I am strongly against CVs getting depth charge armed aircraft until enough experience with subs has been gained. Because from what I have heard from various testing stages CVs can already be a significant threat to subs. So it is logical to wait and see if depth charge aircraft are needed or not.

The sub never has to surface so thats irrelevant.

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30 minutes ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

Yeah not sure why they took out oxygen. It forced strategic use of surfacing and allowed counter play. Oh well.

Actually battery is better but I disagree with how they implemented it. Instead of pings using battery speeds over 1/4 should burn battery, the faster you go the faster it drops, and the only reasonably quick recharge should happen at periscope depth or surfaced with an excruciatingly slow recharge below those depths. Also with the current system once a DD is on a sub it is a dead sub because they are unable to get beyond the 2 Km auto spot range before the DD is back on them. They need a consumable that gives them stealth and speed to do so.

3 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Seems like sub visibility would be a huge problem. Unless the sub is spotted by somebody else, how would the planes have time to line up an attack run.

This and to a certain extent this applies to going after DD's the attack run is started blind.

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38 minutes ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

Yeah not sure why they took out oxygen. It forced strategic use of surfacing and allowed counter play. Oh well.

The Halloween "oxygen" mechanic for submarines was an un-fun pain in the <insert word here>!

No self-respecting WW-I & WW-II submarine would be unable to stay below the surface for 20 minutes.

The "energy" mechanic that has replaced the oxygen mechanic is much better.
The game/map goals provide incentive for submarines to surface, in order to capture areas and/or gain map information that going deep removes from their map display.

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1 minute ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The key is teamwork.
CV performs usual duties and covers the team's ships and goes after anything that threatens team's ships.
BB also covers team's ASW ships and threatens or sinks anything that targets them.
Team's ASW assets "do their job" and target submarines when available and target everything else that can be fired upon, too.
All opposing ships & submarines are "targets of opportunity".
Capture and control map areas.  Win on points and by destroying all opposing team's vessels.

I get the sentiment..I'm just answering the OP's question.     I still believe not forcing Subs to have to surface and become vulnerable,  at least periodically is a serious balancing question mark?    In lieu of current ASW limitations....  a well played sub has a chance of being uber powerful when the bulk of ASW duty has been given to the ship type with the lowest survivabilty rate in game.    I mean how many games a day do you play  day that have no DDs left in the game in 1st 5 mins..   

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6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This and to a certain extent this applies to going after DD's the attack run is started blind.

But subs are much harder than DDs. Subs will have (I assume) a very low air detect and even lower if submerged. Subs are less likely to be spotted by an ally unless it is really close. Finally, if the sub gets that air detect warning, it just needs to dive and be safe from rockets, bombs or torpedoes. Of course subs have crappy AA and are slower than DDs so dropping a fighter would help keep them spotted.

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3 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

I get the sentiment..I'm just answering the OP's question.     I still believe not forcing Subs to have to surface and become vulnerable,  at least periodically is a serious balancing question mark?    In lieu of current ASW limitations....  a well played sub has a chance of being uber powerful when the bulk of ASW duty has been given to the ship type with the lowest survivabilty rate in game.    I mean how many games a day do you play  day that have no DDs left in the game in 1st 5 mins..   

 

4 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The Halloween "oxygen" mechanic for submarines was an un-fun pain in the <insert word here>!

No self-respecting WW-I & WW-II submarine would be unable to stay below the surface for 20 minutes.

The "energy" mechanic that has replaced the oxygen mechanic is much better.
The game/map goals provide incentive for submarines to surface, in order to capture areas and/or gain map information that going deep removes from their map display.

Slowest BB's (in tier-6 play-testing) still outrun a submerged submarine (below periscope depth).
A Submarine vs. BB situation can still be won by a BB that is able to use islands to break target locks, use maneuver to dodge, and capture areas to win on points.
The submarine would have to be very close to the BB at the "starting line" or it either must surface to give chase and stay in torpedo range or risk losing a match to the BB.

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