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Original_Digital_Terror

Radio Location and Radar Surveillance countermeasures

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First, the idea for radio location countermeasures.  As part of taking Concealment Expert, give the commander an option to go 'radio silent'.  What this would do is make them invisible to radio location...but also prevent them from notifying their teammates or BEING notified of any enemy ship locations.  This means only those ships you can see YOURSELF will show up.  You won't get markers on your minimap of last spotted locations other players make, only those you spotted yourself while running silent.  It would be a toggle, just like secondary guns, that you could shut off and begin receiving all the data again, but only new data.

 

Second, Radar Surveillance.  This is really an OP consumable considering there is NO countermeasure for it at all.  People say 'just keep your distance', but those people don't play dd and have to get in range to launch their torpedoes, or get relied upon to spot enemy ships, or to cap command points.  All of which get you well within range of the one of the biggest enjoyment destroying cancers in this game of radar surveillance.  So, to this end I suggest a new module that would go in the same slot as the Stealth module (5th slot).  Radar Scrambler.  It would cut the effective range of radar vs. YOU, and ONLY YOU by 50% (or more perhaps).  10k radar?  Nope, vs you it's only 5k.  Another DD with the stealth module sitting 2k beyond you?  Sorry, they get spotted by the radar while you slip on through.  This would not affect the hydroacoustic consumable at all, just radar.

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So you want counters to counter other counters which in turn counter another counter? It would be like playing two blue counter decks in magic the gathering against each other. Counter spell! Well i counter spell your counter spell! Aha not so fast! I counter spell your counter spell of my counter spell. Etc. etc. 

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If there is no counter for radar then it needs a major nerfing....revealing everything within 10+ km for as long as it takes a BB to reload, and for many ca to launch upwards of a dozen volleys, is way too strong without a counter.  Giving players the option to nerf their own stealth by 10% in order to give themselves a measure of protection against one of the biggest cancers in the game, only beaten by the massive # of +2 tier matches players get inflicted upon them (40% is way WAY too high a number) is a very reasonable idea.

Edited by Original_Digital_Terror

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38 minutes ago, Original_Digital_Terror said:

First, the idea for radio location countermeasures.  As part of taking Concealment Expert, give the commander an option to go 'radio silent'.  What this would do is make them invisible to radio location...but also prevent them from notifying their teammates or BEING notified of any enemy ship locations.  This means only those ships you can see YOURSELF will show up.  You won't get markers on your minimap of last spotted locations other players make, only those you spotted yourself while running silent.  It would be a toggle, just like secondary guns, that you could shut off and begin receiving all the data again, but only new data.

 

Second, Radar Surveillance.  This is really an OP consumable considering there is NO countermeasure for it at all.  People say 'just keep your distance', but those people don't play dd and have to get in range to launch their torpedoes, or get relied upon to spot enemy ships, or to cap command points.  All of which get you well within range of the one of the biggest enjoyment destroying cancers in this game of radar surveillance.  So, to this end I suggest a new module that would go in the same slot as the Stealth module (5th slot).  Radar Scrambler.  It would cut the effective range of radar vs. YOU, and ONLY YOU by 50% (or more perhaps).  10k radar?  Nope, vs you it's only 5k.  Another DD with the stealth module sitting 2k beyond you?  Sorry, they get spotted by the radar while you slip on through.  This would not affect the hydroacoustic consumable at all, just radar.

Completely agree with the first proposal, it would make radio location a bit less valuable but it seems like a very good change overall

 

Where I don't agree is with the second... Yes, radar is plain dumb and forces DDs to basically be passive and staying with the cruisers or even battleships if the map is small which is absolutely dumb... 

That said, it should NOT be a module that replaces stealth because it would basically make DDs that depend on stealth like IJN ones even more weak while passively buffing the gunboats that are not so stealthy. 

My proposal would be to make it a module that fights for mobility, in the slot that holds the acceleration and rudder shift time so even Tier 7 DDs can slot it

Another change I would make is to reduce the radar range only by around 30% because if you reduce it by 50%, you are just making a useless hydro as they would have the same range. With a 30% reduction it will still provide decent ish vision for the cruiser but give breath room for the DD

 

You definitely have really strong points, don't give up on them :cap_like:

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33 minutes ago, Original_Digital_Terror said:

First, the idea for radio location countermeasures.  As part of taking Concealment Expert, give the commander an option to go 'radio silent'.  What this would do is make them invisible to radio location...but also prevent them from notifying their teammates or BEING notified of any enemy ship locations.  This means only those ships you can see YOURSELF will show up.  You won't get markers on your minimap of last spotted locations other players make, only those you spotted yourself while running silent.  It would be a toggle, just like secondary guns, that you could shut off and begin receiving all the data again, but only new data.

 

Second, Radar Surveillance.  This is really an OP consumable considering there is NO countermeasure for it at all.  People say 'just keep your distance', but those people don't play dd and have to get in range to launch their torpedoes, or get relied upon to spot enemy ships, or to cap command points.  All of which get you well within range of the one of the biggest enjoyment destroying cancers in this game of radar surveillance.  So, to this end I suggest a new module that would go in the same slot as the Stealth module (5th slot).  Radar Scrambler.  It would cut the effective range of radar vs. YOU, and ONLY YOU by 50% (or more perhaps).  10k radar?  Nope, vs you it's only 5k.  Another DD with the stealth module sitting 2k beyond you?  Sorry, they get spotted by the radar while you slip on through.  This would not affect the hydroacoustic consumable at all, just radar.

Radio Direction Finding, in theory, depends upon the signals being transmitted by the "located" ship.
So, a toggle-switch to turn off all of a ship's radio transmissions that is similar to the turning-off of AA is possible, I think.  Just need to allocate a keyboard key, eh?
The effects you describe seem reasonable (can't transmit position reports of ships sighted by the "radio transmitter turned off" ship).

In theory, a ship not transmitting radio signals could still receive incoming radio transmissions.

Just as aside, are you trying to give the game programmers a headache?  ;-)


Radar = broken game mechanic upon arrival, in my opinion.  :-D
It should be blocked by terrain (big islands) and experience reduced effectiveness during rainstorms or intense sea-water-splashes that obscure a target (or that nearly drown the radar-using ship?).  :-D

The more sophisticated technology for jamming radar deliberately wasn't developed until after the time period that WOWs is depicting, if I recall correctly.
It won't matter if your ship really is named Enterprise, Commander Spock is not available to make that trick happen in WOWs.  :-)

The solution to radar is already available, but it is not an "easy button" consumable.
1.  Use islands to block the incoming ordnance that is gonna come your way once your ship is revealed by radar.
2.  Sink opposing ships equipped with radar.

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6 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Radio Direction Finding, in theory, depends upon the signals being transmitted by the "located" ship.
So, a toggle-switch to turn off all of a ship's radio transmissions that is similar to the turning-off of AA is possible, I think.  Just need to allocate a keyboard key, eh?
The effects you describe seem reasonable (can't transmit position reports of ships sighted by the "radio transmitter turned off" ship).

In theory, a ship not transmitting radio signals could still receive incoming radio transmissions.

Just as aside, are you trying to give the game programmers a headache?  ;-)


Radar = broken game mechanic upon arrival, in my opinion.  :-D
It should be blocked by terrain (big islands) and experience reduced effectiveness during rainstorms or intense sea-water-splashes that obscure a target (or that nearly drown the radar-using ship?).  :-D

The more sophisticated technology for jamming radar deliberately wasn't developed until after the time period that WOWs is depicting, if I recall correctly.
It won't matter if your ship really is named Enterprise, Commander Spock is not available to make that trick happen in WOWs.  :-)

The solution to radar is already available, but it is not an "easy button" consumable.
1.  Use islands to block the incoming ordnance that is gonna come your way once your ship is revealed by radar.
2.  Sink opposing ships equipped with radar.

If radar were realistic then I agree that it would be blocked by islands. However, it would also be on 100% of the time and have a range well in excess of 20 km (surface ships, much greater than that for aircraft). A realistic counter would be battle damage to the superstructure - permanent battle damage, just like losing AA and secondaries.

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11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The more sophisticated technology for jamming radar deliberately wasn't developed until after the time period that WOWs is depicting, if I recall correctly.
It won't matter if your ship really is named Enterprise, Commander Spock is not available to make that trick happen in WOWs.  :-)

Neither you could make a Battleship reload in 10 seconds, make a Battleship go 40kts or sofocante all the fires on board instantly

Also many of the new additions are more of the 50s than the WW2 era...

WoWs have always been a very arcady game with arcady mechanics that has awesome graphics to conceal that fact...

Radar jamming was definitely not something common (if even possible) during WW2 but why not add it? We have way way crazier stuff in game so it seems perfectly fine to implement this

 

Although you raised a very good argument and points to have your upvote 

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3 minutes ago, Kenrod_Melrocity said:

If radar were realistic then I agree that it would be blocked by islands. However, it would also be on 100% of the time and have a range well in excess of 20 km (surface ships, much greater than that for aircraft). A realistic counter would be battle damage to the superstructure - permanent battle damage, just like losing AA and secondaries.

You make valid points.

WOWs has made it a "consumable" instead, though.

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1 minute ago, XurMP said:

....

Although you raised a very good argument and points to have your upvote 

Thanks.  :-)

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8 minutes ago, Kenrod_Melrocity said:

If radar were realistic then I agree that it would be blocked by islands. However, it would also be on 100% of the time and have a range well in excess of 20 km (surface ships, much greater than that for aircraft). A realistic counter would be battle damage to the superstructure - permanent battle damage, just like losing AA and secondaries.

If radar were 'realistic' then only LARGE ships would get detected.  It wouldn't likely catch a dd until the dd was close enough to eyeball anyway.  If we wanted REALISM in this game, then AA wouldn't be able to open fire until the attacking flight was almost on top of the ship...none of this AA firing 5-6 km away.  The planes would simply fly too high to be shot at.  Radar would only be found on CARRIERS....battleships and cruisers weren't equipped with it until the end of WW2.  Planes would have radar that would detect the ships far earlier than they are detected now.  DD would never stand a chance because aircraft would find them from a lot further out.

23 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The solution to radar is already available, but it is not an "easy button" consumable.
1.  Use islands to block the incoming ordnance that is gonna come your way once your ship is revealed by radar.
2.  Sink opposing ships equipped with radar.

Which brings us right back to the reason a jammer module is needed.  To be able to sink the highly maneuverable, very hard to torpedo ships equipped with radar, you need to either convince the BB and  CA on your team to focus fire on the radar ships (something that almost never happens), or be able to get close enough to actually land your torpedos, which will bring you well within the radar range.  A dd trying to gun fight vs. a ca is dead.  Similarly, a dd that gets radar spotted is probably dead unless they're on the outside edge of the radar range and can run fast enough.  Using an island to block ordnance only works in one direction.  A dd gets spotted by radar will generally have focused fire coming from everywhere in range.

29 minutes ago, XurMP said:

Where I don't agree is with the second... Yes, radar is plain dumb and forces DDs to basically be passive and staying with the cruisers or even battleships if the map is small which is absolutely dumb... 

That said, it should NOT be a module that replaces stealth because it would basically make DDs that depend on stealth like IJN ones even more weak while passively buffing the gunboats that are not so stealthy. 

 

A DD player would have an option.  More stealth or radar protection.  The IJN boats have longer torpedo ranges, and can already launch from outside all but the longest range radar...at tier 10 they can have up to 20km range, making the stealth module much more attractive for them.  Gunboats are the ones that generally go hardest for cap points, and thus need the radar protection more than the stealth.  It would be a choice, and a ship should not have the option of BOTH +15% stealth AND protection from radar.

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12 minutes ago, Original_Digital_Terror said:

If radar were 'realistic' then only LARGE ships would get detected.  It wouldn't likely catch a dd until the dd was close enough to eyeball anyway.  If we wanted REALISM in this game, then AA wouldn't be able to open fire until the attacking flight was almost on top of the ship...none of this AA firing 5-6 km away.  The planes would simply fly too high to be shot at.  Radar would only be found on CARRIERS....battleships and cruisers weren't equipped with it until the end of WW2.  Planes would have radar that would detect the ships far earlier than they are detected now.  DD would never stand a chance because aircraft would find them from a lot further out.

Which brings us right back to the reason a jammer module is needed.  To be able to sink the highly maneuverable, very hard to torpedo ships equipped with radar, you need to either convince the BB and  CA on your team to focus fire on the radar ships (something that almost never happens), or be able to get close enough to actually land your torpedos, which will bring you well within the radar range.  A dd trying to gun fight vs. a ca is dead.  Similarly, a dd that gets radar spotted is probably dead unless they're on the outside edge of the radar range and can run fast enough.  Using an island to block ordnance only works in one direction.  A dd gets spotted by radar will generally have focused fire coming from everywhere in range.

A DD player would have an option.  More stealth or radar protection.  The IJN boats have longer torpedo ranges, and can already launch from outside all but the longest range radar...at tier 10 they can have up to 20km range, making the stealth module much more attractive for them.  Gunboats are the ones that generally go hardest for cap points, and thus need the radar protection more than the stealth.  It would be a choice, and a ship should not have the option of BOTH +15% stealth AND protection from radar.

IJN torpedoboats do NOT have more range... They definitely should consider the absolute monster that was the Long Lance torpedo compared to literally every other single torpedo of the war but in game they don't at all

You are taking about the 20km Shimakaze torpedos that are infamous for being one of the worst torpedos in the entire game for their low speed but specially for the ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS 2.5km detection... They are bordering worthless and Shima should only use the 12km ones

You don't have a single ship with far superior torpedo ranges as most IJN torpedos have a range of 10km while the competition has similar ranges. Hell even Shimakaze's range is really nothing special when Gearing and Somers (that are objectively better torpedo boats) have a 16.5km range with far better reload or YY has a 13.5... obviously not saying that YY is strong, just saying it's range

So excuse me but IJN torpedos only have damage going for them, they have average ranges and extremely poor detection ranges so no, their torepdoes are not the powerhouses they should be

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Original_Digital_Terror said:

Radar would only be found on CARRIERS....battleships and cruisers weren't equipped with it until the end of WW2.

That's not correct. US cruisers had radar during some of the first naval battles of the war - those off Guadalcanal in 1942 for example.

And to think it realistic that a DD could get withing 6 km of another ship in broad daylight, visually or with radar, in real life is absurd. At night, sure. But daylight as in WOWs no way. When it comes to "realism" DDs are just as unrealistic if not more so than any other ship class in the game. The two key attributes of DDs are the most unrealistic - their stealth capability and their ability to fire full torpedo salvos every 1-2 minutes. But its just a game so who cares. The only point of my post above was an attempt to point out that if you really wanted radar to be realistic a real can of worms would be opened and people would probably go ballistic if those changes were implemented.

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58 minutes ago, Original_Digital_Terror said:

Radar would only be found on CARRIERS....battleships and cruisers weren't equipped with it until the end of WW2.

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