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dEsTurbed1

STATE OF THE GAME: CB influence

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So a new Meta has been thrust upon us.

Last season it was the KLEBER wolf packs...

Then the KLEBER gets nerfed.

Now we have the Venezia menace. 

A Hak to spot, A Yoshino for long range support, and 5 Venezia to laugh at your AP.

.....

So this brings a few questions to mind.

When will the Venezia be nerfed?

What kind of nerf will it be?

Will any changes come to AA balance to counter the strong carrier?

Or, will the Haland be nerfed due to high AA efficiency?

.....

Now to the future:

The new heavy/light Russian cruisers will be in the next season.

Will they dominate?

What will be their counter?

Will we see carriers again in next season?

......

Observation:

Not really seeing a lot of British Heavy cruisers, nor many Hallands.

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8 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

So a new Meta has been thrust upon us.

Last season it was the KLEBER wolf packs...

Then the KLEBER gets nerfed.

Now we have the Venezia menace. 

A Hak to spot, A Yoshino for long range support, and 5 Venezia to laugh at your AP.

.....

So this brings a few questions to mind.

When will the Venezia be nerfed?

What kind of nerf will it be?

Will any changes come to AA balance to counter the strong carrier?

Or, will the Haland be nerfed due to high AA efficiency?

.....

Now to the future:

The new heavy/light Russian cruisers will be in the next season.

Will they dominate?

What will be their counter?

Will we see carriers again in next season?

......

Observation:

Not really seeing a lot of British Heavy cruisers, nor many Hallands.

The difference is that this CB is radically different thanks to the inclusion of CV. Venezia was there in previous season, and did not make such impact precisely because of the different meta.

 

and even the current meta may change. Give a good clan with a counter idea a few win and suddenly it will move in an other direction. 

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6 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

So a new Meta has been thrust upon us.

Last season it was the KLEBER wolf packs...

Then the KLEBER gets nerfed.

Now we have the Venezia menace. 

A Hak to spot, A Yoshino for long range support, and 5 Venezia to laugh at your AP.

.....

So this brings a few questions to mind.

When will the Venezia be nerfed?

What kind of nerf will it be?

Will any changes come to AA balance to counter the strong carrier?

Or, will the Haland be nerfed due to high AA efficiency?

.....

Now to the future:

The new heavy/light Russian cruisers will be in the next season.

Will they dominate?

What will be their counter?

Will we see carriers again in next season?

......

Observation:

Not really seeing a lot of British Heavy cruisers, nor many Hallands.

Why do ships have to be nerfed because of clan battles in a random game you can’t pick your team . You cant nerf ships because they do well in clan battles were you can bring 3 or 4 of the same ships to a game along with cover for them . 

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13 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Why do ships have to be nerfed because of clan battles in a random game you can’t pick your team .

There is some thought given to balancing around how the top percentile of players perform in ships. Obviously, clan battles and randoms are two different entities entirely. That said, if Wargaming is looking to try and grow the 'professionally' competitive side of their game, then balancing around the performance of the top percentile actually makes sense. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, and as a non-participant in CB, I have no first-hand knowledge, no rooting interest (as if I'd ever be good enough) and no firsthand information. 

It does seem like clan battles have become formulaic, which is at best, boring to watch and boring to play (or so I'd assume). Shaking up the meta by limiting ships, ship types and/or ship classes seems to be the easy solution - but WG tried that with implementing CV's and well, here we are. KOTS seems to be a little more interesting in terms of limiting ships, perhaps WG needs to take a similar step? I don't know, not a serious competitive player and likely never will be. 

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5 minutes ago, Brohk said:

It does seem like clan battles have become formulaic

It's pretty much always been that way(at least since Moskva was introduced) and is a symptom of being a competitive game mode. There really isn't anyway to "fix" it as there will always be a meta. That said, some metas are more fun than others and the general opinion is this last meta suuuuuucked.

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22 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Why do ships have to be nerfed because of clan battles in a random game you can’t pick your team . You cant nerf ships because they do well in clan battles were you can bring 3 or 4 of the same ships to a game along with cover for them . 

Tell that to Hindenburg, YY, Henri and Kleber

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Just now, Tekina_ said:

It's pretty much always been that way(at least since Moskva was introduced) and is a symptom of being a competitive game mode. There really isn't anyway to "fix" it as there will always be a meta. That said, some metas are more fun than others and the general opinion is this last meta suuuuuucked.

True, which is why I get the idea behind a "shake-up." There will always be a certain line-up considered stronger than others, but there are ways to shake that up, such as letting your opponents ban certain ships or changing the comp after X number of games (imagine the limit of BBs/CVs reversing to DDs). Again though, my CB knowledge is very limited.

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IDK, but it seemed to me, when wg started limiting/banning specific ships. The KoTS matches got a lot more interesting. Especially  when some teams had to play without their crutches.

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1 hour ago, Brohk said:

[excerpted]

There is some thought given to balancing around how the top percentile of players perform in ships. 

Cue the wild contrarian arm-waving of the CV apologists. 

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1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Tell that to Hindenburg, YY, Henri and Kleber

Potato me bought the premium camo for YY the patch before the nerf hammer dropped... I'm still unimpressed about it. 

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1 hour ago, nightrider760 said:

IDK, but it seemed to me, when wg started limiting/banning specific ships. The KoTS matches got a lot more interesting. Especially  when some teams had to play without their crutches.

wargaming doesnt run KOTS its a fully player run and operated tournament thats why there are no CV.

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3 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

So a new Meta has been thrust upon us.

Last season it was the KLEBER wolf packs...

Then the KLEBER gets nerfed.

Now we have the Venezia menace. 

A Hak to spot, A Yoshino for long range support, and 5 Venezia to laugh at your AP.

.....

So this brings a few questions to mind.

When will the Venezia be nerfed?

What kind of nerf will it be?

Will any changes come to AA balance to counter the strong carrier?

Or, will the Haland be nerfed due to high AA efficiency?

.....

Now to the future:

The new heavy/light Russian cruisers will be in the next season.

Will they dominate?

What will be their counter?

Will we see carriers again in next season?

......

Observation:

Not really seeing a lot of British Heavy cruisers, nor many Hallands.

the new tier 10 russian cruisers dont bring anything new nevsky doesnt have enough impact to be a threat and petero is just a mini stalingrad that cannot overmatch smolensk and minotaur.

unfortunately if kleber doesnt get a nerf then it will just be going from one boring season with cv to another with kleber spam although with kleber there is an opportunity of fun as not all teams run kleber and you can counter kleber.

for the sake of keeping competitive populated and not a boring snipe fest i really hope wargaming will accept that cv in clan battles was a failure, you cannot have that much power in games with only 7 ships total.

https://streamable.com/avvj9p

i found this gem while looking for another clip, these were better times in clan battles, yamato, des moines , montana , smolensk and daring.

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7 hours ago, clammboy said:

Why do ships have to be nerfed because of clan battles in a random game you can’t pick your team . You cant nerf ships because they do well in clan battles were you can bring 3 or 4 of the same ships to a game along with cover for them . 

Just move clan battles to a tier where ships are more balanced with each other and skill counts more, but I have the feeling that will not happen. WG likes people pushing to tier 10 for clan battles and ranked even if it makes 8-10 a junk yard of bad players so they can sell premiums and doubloons for free xp conversion. Then they nerf ships so people will push to get the next OP one. 

Edited by USMC2145

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27 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

Just move clan battles to a tier where ships are more balanced with each other and skill counts more, but I have the feeling that will not happen. WG likes people pushing to tier 10 for clan battles and ranked even if it makes 8-10 a junk yard of bad players so they can sell premiums and doubloons for free xp conversion. Then they nerf ships so people will push to get the next OP one. 

TX is the most balanced tier for clan battles.

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21 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

TX is the most balanced tier for clan battles.

Without question

 

 

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9 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

When will the Venezia be nerfed?

What kind of nerf will it be?

not sure, maybe they'll play with SAP angles

9 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Will any changes come to AA balance to counter the strong carrier?

yes, more nerfs, cause clearly that's what we need

9 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Or, will the Haland be nerfed due to high AA efficiency?

probably

9 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

The new heavy/light Russian cruisers will be in the next season.

Will they dominate?

What will be their counter?

You'll probably see these things dominate in Squall/Gale, but once things get serious, they will disappear because Moskva, Stalin, and Smolensk do the same things better

9 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Will we see carriers again in next season?

95% of the players: f*ck no please don't bring them back

WG: we saw players had a lot of fun playing with CVs in clan battles and enjoyed the changes to ship comps and lineups, so next season will be 6v6 T8 with your choice of either 2 BBs, 1 BB and 1 CV, or 2 CVs.

 

Edited by tfcas119
added something
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1 hour ago, USMC2145 said:

Just move clan battles to a tier where ships are more balanced with each other and skill counts more, but I have the feeling that will not happen. WG likes people pushing to tier 10 for clan battles and ranked even if it makes 8-10 a junk yard of bad players so they can sell premiums and doubloons for free xp conversion. Then they nerf ships so people will push to get the next OP one.  

T8 showed what happens when cruisers suddenly can't take a hit without losing half their health

T9 is full of broken and/or stupidly strong ships like Alaska, Kron, Musashi, Georgia, Friesland, Mogador, Ostergotland, Riga, Jean Bart, and Kitakaze

T7 is similar to T9, but not as bad

and the less said about T5 premiums the better

Take CVs out of the equation, and T10 is the best tier to do clan battles. The only other tier that would work for clan is T6, as CVs aren't as strong, and the only real broken outliers are T-61 and Izmail.

 

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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

TX is the most balanced tier for clan battles.

But what difference does a balanced tier make when a  clan takes 4 of the most OP or new ships in the tier along with the best ships to complement them ? I mean all tiers have ships a clan would use more of in battle than others and weaker ships don’t have to be played it’s only only 7vs 7 . Seems like a lazy reason to just keep the status quo and have clan battles in tier 10 all the time . And by the way why does everything have to be so balanced all the time weren’t there always ships to be more feared of during war ? Ships that were just better than yours and you had to overcome with a plan or just guts  . The whole balance thing is bit much as long as its not totally out of whack then why can’t some ships just be a bit stronger than others keeps it interesting . 

Edited by clammboy

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Our clan quit playing this season clan battles a couple weeks back - The only way to consistently win is with a CV and especially  Hakuryu, , and even then, the meta is not enjoyable - We normally play 300+ games / clan battles season. Have even fielded 2 teams simultaneously in past. Normally love the battle mode.

Some observations and thoughts from my team mates including the CV mains on how to improve CV/surface ship interaction ...  

Hakuryu planes are far more difficult to bring down - even stacking 2 cruisers vs a competent Hak captain is futile - Her planes HP really should be reduced. 

AP bomb damage - it is nothing to see 17k drops from them, and they are mostly citadel damage - largely non repairable - AP bomb damage needs to be made more repairable - from the roughly 10% for BBs and 30% for cruisers to 30 and 50% as a starting point ...  CV's should not be able to deal that much non repairable damage and the target has literally ZERO counter play(this would still allow the cv captain to do the same damage, the target just wouldn't be killed in as short a time - Win/Win)

most good Hak captains can do 2 drops per flight - again, even with 2 cruisers equipped with Def AA - Def AA is now too weak - it used to to significantly more damage BUT ALSO dramatically reduce the accuracy of the attack squadrons - raising the effectiveness of the accuracy nerf should be done - this would help lower AA ships for the 3-4 attack runs they could use their Def aa consumable - Perhaps Def AA should not have charges - but only a cool down and be more focused on nerfing incoming plane accuracy than damage?

Spotting by the CV - particularly against destroyers - I think should work similar to radar in cyclones with a 6+ second delay before the cv team mates can see the dd to shoot at( they would instantly see the dd on the mini map)  or even make it so only the cv can see the dd until that ship fired, or moved close enough to be spotted or radared by the enemy team ... it is bad enough taking 8k volleys as a dd player, without the rest of the team adding in ... again - little counter play other than taking a Halland. 

CV plane squadrons regenerate - AA mounts get depleted - MANY games we see skilled CV captains still attacking with full squadrons near games end - Make ship AA mounts non destructible - I have had a LOT of games being focused in a cruiser with only short range AA remaining - that is an angry deck hand throwing empty rum bottles ... 

Just  a few thoughts to help improve the interaction - most do not reduce the cv damage potential, but aid somewhat the survival of the targets - The reason people hate CV's so much is any strategy regarding stealth/flanking and the like is null and void - anyone trying to flank to get better ambush angles is likely dead , particularly if the cv is a Hakuryu - that thing is a monstrous bully this CB season - we had an 80% + WR in the games we ran with her ... but even our CV captain said this season is boring and frustrating compared to any of the past seasons  - even the 4 kleber meme teams last season were better than this. 

Without most of the changes i offer above- CV's have ZERO place in CB and we will not play them . Other clan leaders I talk with have the same thoughts - and that is unfortunate, because Randoms suck without a win rate % match making system in place these days ... the ship tier MM in randoms is certainly much better than in past, we are thankful for that, but 7 minute games are getting tired. 

-------------------------------------------

Venezia SAP is definitely too strong - i think the SAP shell damage will ultimately have to be dropped to better balance her - Last season , her fast accurate dd deleting powers were key to countering the Kleber menace - but she is very very effective against most cruisers also, while being very maneuverable and difficult for some ships to counter - Stalin and 305mm gun ships works well on her when they can connect 

Also - I agree, T10 ships are probably the best balanced of any tier - some outliers, but far better than most every lower tier. 

There may be some valid thought to perhaps limiting the number of any one ship to say 3 in a fleet make up - I am undecided on that though, as in cases like this season with CV's - the meme's are some of the little enjoyment teams actually have... 

I will close with this: Seeing the leaderboard in Europe on the clan battles and in the top 10, the fact that 7? of those clans have changed their names to the effect of "F-CV's " - " CV's have no place in CB"  - This should be a glowing Neon sign to Wargaming that CV's in their current state in clan battles is NOT healthy for the game - Competitive are the games hardest core players and I bet the ones with their wallets the most open. Ignoring their messages and feedback would be a risk to this games longer term growth and success ...So here's hoping someone is listening and willing to take our collective concerns seriously about this and make some much needed changes with CV interaction going forward

Edited by Karandar
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11 hours ago, yashma said:

Without question

 

 

T8 gave it a run for its money though.....

 

 

/s

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Why would you balance ships around a game mode that only a small percentage of the population play? I don't play clan battles (not in a clan) but I would assume it is just a min/max type of thing and will always be that way regardless.

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Venezia would be OP even without smoke.

Hakuryu is worse.

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Playing in Random with a CV has convinced me to stop with DDs, I get focused right away and killed usually the first runs of the CV. They are way OP and need a serious nerf or better yet a separate game mode where they could play and if you didn't want to meet them stay out like a mission mode or realistic battle where you could pit US/Jap battle groups vs each other. I just hope they don't throw subs into random as well, that would be a game killer as they presently are.

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