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hermanmelville

how about a mode without CVs?

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So I hear it from both sides, and think they are both true.   

The CV players complain that they don't get enough damage for the time put in, as opposed to a BB or cruiser.   And no matter how good a CV plays, it is fairly rare to see a CV as the top 3 players in the match consistently, which is the not the case w/ any other class.  

Opposite viewpoint complains that CVs are disproportionately powerful against certain ships, such as DDs, or that there is nothing that most ships can do to counter a good peer CV unless you stay in a tight AA ball the whole match (guaranteed to lose most matches right off).  Or that CVs throw off the rock paper scissor balance of the game.   Or that a good CV has to be countered by another good CV.  These are all true. 

 

Why not make a mode with CVs optional?  Is the player base not big enough to tolerate this and still keep CVs in game play? 

You could increase CV damage,  also increase AA - make CVs work more for the damage by having to play smart instead of being able to just fly their planes into an AA cruiser and still get good damage before losing their planes, but reward smart play with more damage, more experience for damage.

 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, hermanmelville said:

So I hear it from both sides, and think they are both true.   

The CV players complain that they don't get enough damage for the time put in, as opposed to a BB or cruiser.   And no matter how good a CV plays, it is fairly rare to see a CV as the top 3 players in the match consistently, which is the not the case w/ any other class.  

Opposite viewpoint complains that CVs are disproportionately powerful against certain ships, such as DDs, or that there is nothing that most ships can do to counter a good peer CV unless you stay in a tight AA ball the whole match (guaranteed to lose most matches right off).  Or that CVs throw off the rock paper scissor balance of the game.   Or that a good CV has to be countered by another good CV.  These are all true. 

 

Why not make a mode with CVs optional?  Is the player base not big enough to tolerate this and still keep CVs in game play? 

You could increase CV damage,  also increase AA - make CVs work more for the damage by having to play smart instead of being able to just fly their planes into an AA cruiser and still get good damage before losing their planes, but reward smart play with more damage, more experience for damage.

There isn't a need to go through another round of balancing damage and AA numbers.  While AA could be hard to deal with early on, it degrades as the battle wears on and teammates are sunk.  As to CVs complaining about damage, the class is perfectly capable of hurting things.

--

To your CV/no-CV queue idea, it's not going to be a thing.  The playerbase is strong for World of Warships, but the core of the WoWs experience is random battles.  The alternate gamemodes they do are temporary, and usually have rewards that can be attained fairly quickly so that players can migrate back to the dominant queue to keep matchmaker moving quickly and not stalling out into odd numbered matches.

The addition of the upcoming Sub-mode is expected to be temporary as a way to get the larger testing audience of the live server onto the new concept, but keep them out of random battles while they iterate on gameplay design.  This queue will be removed as subs migrate to random battles.

--

If for some reason they were to entertain the idea of a standard battle(DD+CA+BB)/enhanced battle(DD+CA+BB+CV+Sub), they would have to increase the rewards for the enhanced version to make sure their playerbase that use CVs and Subs are seeing matches with a consistent frequency.  Doing that would create a new issue of the hardcore gaming crowd feeling "obligated" to play the enhanced version because they would not be able to stand missing out on increased rewards. 

In short, the queues would become incredibly divisive and wait times would react dramatically.

Edited by Ahskance
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So basically, make a mode where player either play without CV or become CV foods?

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A no CV mode doesn't just affect CVs. Ships designed around AA also would suffer, as they were originally balanced with CV in mind. One of the modes would die, and if it were the CV mode, every ship line and premium base around AA like the Euro DDs, Kidd, Minotaur, etc. would disappear with them as players default to lines that are stronger in a CV free environment. Also, there would be a mass migration to French DDs as they would bully most other DDs out of existence without planes in the sky to keep them in check. Angry players who own premiums affected in the negative and who liked similar lines would grow equally disgusted and quit the game. Also, players would begin to demand buttons for No Radar or No DD. When they don't get what they wanted like the Anti-CV crowd, they quit. Ultimately, WG would not be left with enough players to keep the lights on and would shut the game down. That is the future of WoWs if they put in a NoCV button.

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Won't happen, I disagree with it, and there have been better ideas presented. This one has come and gone

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4 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

A no CV mode doesn't just affect CVs. Ships designed around AA also would suffer, as they were originally balanced with CV in mind. One of the modes would die, and if it were the CV mode, every ship line and premium base around AA like the Euro DDs, Kidd, Minotaur, etc. would disappear with them as players default to lines that are stronger in a CV free environment. Also, there would be a mass migration to French DDs as they would bully most other DDs out of existence without planes in the sky to keep them in check. Angry players who own premiums affected in the negative and who liked similar lines would grow equally disgusted and quit the game. Also, players would begin to demand buttons for No Radar or No DD. When they don't get what they wanted like the Anti-CV crowd, they quit. Ultimately, WG would not be left with enough players to keep the lights on and would shut the game down. That is the future of WoWs if they put in a NoCV button.

All good points.  Maybe the CV mode was flawed from the get go if they built so many ships around it.  I don't think that the case.  

 

Plenty of games, in fact probably at least 1/2 are without CVs already. I don't believe that many folks play high AA ships just for that - simply b/c the CV matchmaker is already unpredictable - in the last 6 games, 3 had CVs, 3 didn't - why would I base my ship choice around something that might only happen 1/2 the time? 

Most of the AA ships have other redeeming quality.  I don't play Atlanta or Mino for AA - I play them for pew pew really fast.  Same for Colbert.  Also, most CVs don't stalk cruisers, so would you really bring an AA ship when the CV is going to avoid you most of the time?  Most AA ships are shell spammers, due to dual purpose guns, these are still plenty useful. 

Mass migration to French DDs?  High visibility, short range torps?  People are going to forsake shima and gearing and daring just b/c of no CVs?    Even in some clan wars, without CVs, you still rarely see a Kleber or Mogador, but shima, gearing, daring, even groz are regulars.  The main trait of DDs is stealth, and french DDs don't have much of that. 

The Euro line is played for fast guns, and high speed torps, not for AA.  The AA isn't high enough on peer planes to keep them from damaging you anyway.  Also played for the heal. 

Kidd is not played much anyway, rarely see it or play it even though I have it.  Give up a set of torps for what?  Nothing that comes close to matching.  

And yes, folks could demand the have other stuff removed, but I don't see any of these other things that are mentioned complained about or as universally hated as CVs.  Nor do they disrupt balanced gameplay - as they are the balance, not an extra element.  

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

Won't happen, I disagree with it, and there have been better ideas presented. This one has come and gone

I don't doubt it, I haven't read any of them though.  Any details or links?

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Sitting outside on mobile for baby to keep napping so can't do the work right now but ideas were:

Minimize spotting, from only be on the mini map to reducing DD spot by air (and their AA in unison) 

Improve pre match planning and add open VoIP to coordinate better.

And add fuel time to airplanes to cut back their flight time from unlimited.

 

All of which I would gladly accept.

 

Edit:

My only gripe as a CV is the hate I get for being a CV, and the EU DDs. I mean I'm teching up to the halland because it's simply so awesome, and I find joy in shooting down planes.

Edited by Merc_R_Us

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1 hour ago, hermanmelville said:

So I hear it from both sides, and think they are both true.   

The CV players complain that they don't get enough damage for the time put in, as opposed to a BB or cruiser.   And no matter how good a CV plays, it is fairly rare to see a CV as the top 3 players in the match consistently, which is the not the case w/ any other class.  

Opposite viewpoint complains that CVs are disproportionately powerful against certain ships, such as DDs, or that there is nothing that most ships can do to counter a good peer CV unless you stay in a tight AA ball the whole match (guaranteed to lose most matches right off).  Or that CVs throw off the rock paper scissor balance of the game.   Or that a good CV has to be countered by another good CV.  These are all true. 

 

Why not make a mode with CVs optional?  Is the player base not big enough to tolerate this and still keep CVs in game play? 

You could increase CV damage,  also increase AA - make CVs work more for the damage by having to play smart instead of being able to just fly their planes into an AA cruiser and still get good damage before losing their planes, but reward smart play with more damage, more experience for damage.

And once WG does that BBabies will cry endlessly until they get a no DD mode. DDs have no effective counter without CVs since most cruisers want to HE spam BBs instead of countering DDs. So WG isn't going to open that Pandora's box.

 

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Can I have a mode with BBs optional, then? For my cruisers.

And a mode with cruisers optional? For my DDs.

And a mode with DDs optional?

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31 minutes ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

And once WG does that BBabies will cry endlessly until they get a no DD mode. DDs have no effective counter without CVs since most cruisers want to HE spam BBs instead of countering DDs. So WG isn't going to open that Pandora's box.

 

How about 12km (now with more due to new Russian cruisers) or 10km radar (lasting for close to a minute), sonar, and other DDs?  Are those not sufficient counters already?   

DDs don't seem to have a hard time dying in the 50% games without CVs already.    DDs already have a little room for error, low health pools, most don't have heals.  

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The same was said in WoT since beta (when I started playing it) and still is (haven’t played in about 2 yrs but a friend does) about arty! The button doesn’t exist in WoT and will never happen for CV’s in WoWs.

I don’t like CV’s battles and when pressing the Battle button am happier when the team list shows no CV’s but they’re in the game and others like playing them. So the “no CV’s button” is already there .... just don’t hit Battle and go do something else. Simplez!

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6 minutes ago, hermanmelville said:

How about 12km (now with more due to new Russian cruisers) or 10km radar (lasting for close to a minute), sonar, and other DDs?  Are those not sufficient counters already?   

DDs don't seem to have a hard time dying in the 50% games without CVs already.    DDs already have a little room for error, low health pools, most don't have heals.  

All you have to do is look back at all the whine threads about DDs and torpedoes being OP when RTS CVs started to die off in game. Plenty of radar then too.

Potatoes will always die regardless of radar being present or not. Good players tend to pay attention to where the radar is last located on their mini map and do their best to avoid it.

Now put your DD main bias back where it belongs and stop with this nonsense. Respectfully someone who's played a lot of DDs.

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1 hour ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

A no CV mode doesn't just affect CVs. Ships designed around AA also would suffer, as they were originally balanced with CV in mind. One of the modes would die, and if it were the CV mode, every ship line and premium base around AA like the Euro DDs, Kidd, Minotaur, etc. would disappear with them as players default to lines that are stronger in a CV free environment. Also, there would be a mass migration to French DDs as they would bully most other DDs out of existence without planes in the sky to keep them in check. Angry players who own premiums affected in the negative and who liked similar lines would grow equally disgusted and quit the game. Also, players would begin to demand buttons for No Radar or No DD. When they don't get what they wanted like the Anti-CV crowd, they quit. Ultimately, WG would not be left with enough players to keep the lights on and would shut the game down. That is the future of WoWs if they put in a NoCV button.

This, while it can rightfully be argued that CV's shouldn't be in the game they are and making them optional would cause the law of unintended consequences to rear its ugly head and the result would not be good for the game.

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I for one would pay a crap load of coin for this......say WG! There you go!  That would be a great way for you to earn money!

Think of it WG, no more coming up with stuff like the Porto Rico or Russian cruiser gimmicks!  You could make all the money you want!

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You already have the option of playing without CVs. Play T1 or T2 if you want.

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For WG to move CV's to a separate battle mode would be an admission that CV's never belonged in a surface ship game so....Nyet! Not gonna happen comrade.:Smile_glasses:

Edited by awiggin

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25 minutes ago, awiggin said:

For WG to move CV's to a separate battle mode would be an admission that CV's never belonged in a surface ship game so....Nyet! Not gonna happen comrade.:Smile_glasses:

I'm going to have to agree with that admission if it ever happens. 

Maybe it should be a premium feature - and only premium players can opt out of CV battles.  

As an aside, why do so many new ships have a radar?  Smaland? Orkhan? Russian CAs?  There are plenty of DD counter already, besides CVs.

 

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9 hours ago, hermanmelville said:

So I hear it from both sides, and think they are both true.   

The CV players complain that they don't get enough damage for the time put in, as opposed to a BB or cruiser.   And no matter how good a CV plays, it is fairly rare to see a CV as the top 3 players in the match consistently, which is the not the case w/ any other class.  

Opposite viewpoint complains that CVs are disproportionately powerful against certain ships, such as DDs, or that there is nothing that most ships can do to counter a good peer CV unless you stay in a tight AA ball the whole match (guaranteed to lose most matches right off).  Or that CVs throw off the rock paper scissor balance of the game.   Or that a good CV has to be countered by another good CV.  These are all true. 

 

Why not make a mode with CVs optional?  Is the player base not big enough to tolerate this and still keep CVs in game play? 

You could increase CV damage,  also increase AA - make CVs work more for the damage by having to play smart instead of being able to just fly their planes into an AA cruiser and still get good damage before losing their planes, but reward smart play with more damage, more experience for damage.

 

 

 

 

 

A nother CDS post.  You want to open the door for no DD mode and so on.  Remember cv hater thought it was funny when they nerfed prem cv and then they did it to your ship and suddenly everyone wanted there money back.

Be careful what you wish for.

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The mode should be Clan battles but the cv's have infected that too. The 6 cruiser and a carrier teams were great this season wg WD.

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Not to beat a dead horse. But does anyone actually "Like" the carrier re-work? I sure preferred the old way. 

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On 5/17/2020 at 4:24 PM, hermanmelville said:

So I hear it from both sides, and think they are both true.   

The CV players complain that they don't get enough damage for the time put in, as opposed to a BB or cruiser.   And no matter how good a CV plays, it is fairly rare to see a CV as the top 3 players in the match consistently, which is the not the case w/ any other class.  

Opposite viewpoint complains that CVs are disproportionately powerful against certain ships, such as DDs, or that there is nothing that most ships can do to counter a good peer CV unless you stay in a tight AA ball the whole match (guaranteed to lose most matches right off).  Or that CVs throw off the rock paper scissor balance of the game.   Or that a good CV has to be countered by another good CV.  These are all true. 

 

Why not make a mode with CVs optional?  Is the player base not big enough to tolerate this and still keep CVs in game play? 

You could increase CV damage,  also increase AA - make CVs work more for the damage by having to play smart instead of being able to just fly their planes into an AA cruiser and still get good damage before losing their planes, but reward smart play with more damage, more experience for damage.

 

 

 

 

 

This again more CDS.  A mode without DD or a mode without BB.

How does that grab you?

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On 5/20/2020 at 10:06 AM, CorvetteKaptain67 said:

Not to beat a dead horse. But does anyone actually "Like" the carrier re-work? I sure preferred the old way. 

I very much prefer the new CVs to the old ones.  The old ones were utterly dominant and if you got the potato CV you almost certainly lost regardless of what you did.  Only once do I recall winning a match where our CV was bad and the enemy CV was a unicum.  Now it doesn't matter nearly as much.  They also can't perma spot every DD on a team simultaneously and still sink ships with their attack planes.

Anybody who preferred the old CVs either was an RTS CV player who enjoyed the power or doesn't remember how they were or, most likely, didn't prefer the old RTS CVs so much as preferred the fewer matches with CVs.

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Just got wiped out in a 9 player match with 2 cvs each. Got hit hard by air and then could do nothing but flee. Ridiculous game, and no fun whatsoever.  You can't put 2 cvs in a 9 player match. I understand its the same for both sides but its simply no fun, which is the point of playing.

 

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I would love a game type w/o CVs.  Except it should still be Random, just a choice, Random with CVs, Randoms w/o CVs, no need for it to really be considered a different wartype. What I mean by this is, all the points and quest completions should be the same just choose the type you want to play.  If you play a non-AA DD in the CV Random you could get a bonus 10% to XP or something.  Other big games do this incentive type and it works very nice.

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