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Lady_Athena

Can German secondaries get a buff?

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Because right now German ships are a joke. Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.. Every major Unicum has admitted to it. They just have nothing going for them..

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

 

A few U.S. BB's secondaries actually out perform German BB's stock against a German BB fully kitted with secondary build..

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11 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.

Aaaaaand that's where you lost me.

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11 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Because right now German ships are a joke. Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.. Every major Unicum has admitted to it. They just have nothing going for them..

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

 

A few U.S. BB's secondaries actually out perform German BB's stock against a German BB fully kitted with secondary build.. 

    I have some doubts about your premise, but how do you make them better? They actually have a lot going for them with the recent IFHE and armor changes.

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1 minute ago, Alabamastan said:

    I have some doubts about your premise, but how do you make them better? They actually have a lot going for them with the recent IFHE and armor changes.

Not really.. no..

 

Those IFHE changes hurt them, because the IFHE is significantly more potent against said German ships.

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14 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Not really.. no..

 

Those IFHE changes hurt them, because the IFHE is significantly more potent against said German ships.

    Yes really, yes.

    Germans ships do not need IFHE on their secondary builds or will only use them to boost 105mm secondaries above 32mm. Even with IFHE USN builds will not pen 32mm now. That in itself is a leg up. So I ask again, what do you think is needed and why?

Edited by Alabamastan

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4 minutes ago, Alabamastan said:

    Yes really, yes.

    Germans ships do not need IFHE on their secondary builds or will only use them to boost 105mm secondary's above 32mm. Even with IFHE USN builds will not pen 32mm now. That in itself is a leg up. So I ask again, what do you think is needed and why?

Agree with both your posts. I took the IFHE off my Mass due to the changes.

I enjoy the Mass play and now find the Tirpitz/Bismarck don't play far off it and they don't have the Manual Secondaries captain skill yet. I've now started the grind to the GK and found it every bit enjoyable as my Mass play.

Edited by _WaveRider_

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I'd rather see Germans BBs get a buff on accuracy and in certain cases like GK maybe a little more firing range.

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German BBs got a accuracy buff to their mains recently, spec around that. Secondary brawl builds aren't useful with the current meta.

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So do you want the secondaries to shoot out to 15km or 20km?

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1 hour ago, Lady_Athena said:

Because right now German ships are a joke. Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.. Every major Unicum has admitted to it. They just have nothing going for them..

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

 

A few U.S. BB's secondaries actually out perform German BB's stock against a German BB fully kitted with secondary build..

Had a battle in the 1 vs 1 Ranked where enemy ship that was a Massachusetts and I had my Bismarck. We chatted a bit at start and the idea to try killing each other Only with secondary guns was put forth, accepted, and honored. My Bismarck won by a nice margin. My theory was that Bismarck’s armor is stronger, secondary guns heavier, and that the Mass often relies more on the larger caliber main guns in a typical battle to gain an edge over a Bismarck. Because we got into secondary range, turned completely broadside while drifting into about 5km range or less and sailing along like that. Not 1 main gun shell was fire by either of us.

Not sure if such agreements are within the rules are not. But since it was just the 2 of us and we did fight to the death I saw no harm in it and was fun. Would have loved to have seen what my Bismarck looked like at the end as I had never seen so many shell holes in a ship in my life as what Mass had looked like from all my Bismarck secondary shells hitting it.

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59 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Because right now German ships are a joke. Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.. Every major Unicum has admitted to it. They just have nothing going for them..

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

A few U.S. BB's secondaries actually out perform German BB's stock against a German BB fully kitted with secondary build..

Yes and no. 

American secondaries are the most consistent due three primary reasons:

  • The best firing angles of all major players, meaning more American guns are firing at a given time.
  • Having sufficient penetration for the most important targets (DD's and BB's) without needing IFHE
  • American module selection allows for BOTH improved main battery and secondary battery accuracy (and secondary range)

Comparatively, French battleships saw massive DPM reduction with the IFHE rework.  In a full armor test using an Amagi as my test target @ 8km range:

  • Republique went from 14,704 to 10,292 dpm
  • Alsace went from 19,466 to 9,965 dpm (Alsace has a bugged 6" turret directly behind her superstructure that makes it insanely accurate)
  • Gascogne went from 9,493 to 5,846 dpm

French battleships retain their great anti-DD and anti-CL/CA performance, but their anti-BB took a bone crushing hit due to their 6" guns no longer being able to penetrate 32mm of armor.  I can longer recommend French secondary builds because of this.  French mounts are already flimsy, so as they die off, as they always do, their secondary performance is reduced even further.

On the other hand, German battleships that sport 128mm mounts, along with any battleship sporting 105mm that wasn't on the 1/4 pen rule before, saw massive improvements:

  • Scharnhorst went from 4,116 to 7,412 dpm (its 105mm mounts got buffed to the 1/4 pen rule)
  • Gneisenau went from 4,978 to 13,594 dpm
  • Grober "King of the Brawlers" Kurfurst went from 11,445 to 19,725 dpm

That isn't to say your comment isn't without merit.  The #1 issue that plagues German brawlers is their inability to function properly in the what-I-like-to-call "Standard Battleship Meta", which is the mid/mid-long range.  American and French brawlers can still function in this meta until a prime opportunity arises for them to close the distance needed for secondary range.  German battleships lack a combination of accuracy and gun count (or both) to function properly in this meta.  There are two German exceptions though:  The Scharnhorst and the Kurfurst (and soon-to-be-Odin).  The Scharnhorst has much improved accuracy and gun count over the Gneisenau, and the Kurfurst's +50% gun count give it a much needed relative accuracy boost to function until distance can be closed. 

The Agir, at least up until its complete overhaul, followed the Scharnhorst model, which is one of the reasons why it looked to be such a promising brawler.

At the end of the day, secondary battleships still have to perform standard battleship duties.  That's where German brawlers are hurt the most. 

And in closing, there is a bug with the Bismarck that greatly hurts her secondary performance.  I've submitted it a few times but to no avail.  Maybe @Lert or someone famous (ie, not me lol) can get WG's attention?  You can see it below.

 

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9 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Had a battle in the 1 vs 1 Ranked where enemy ship that was a Massachusetts and I had my Bismarck. We chatted a bit at start and the idea to try killing each other Only with secondary guns was put forth, accepted, and honored. My Bismarck won by a nice margin. My theory was that Bismarck’s armor is stronger, secondary guns heavier, and that the Mass often relies more on the larger caliber main guns in a typical battle to gain an edge over a Bismarck. Because we got into secondary range, turned completely broadside while drifting into about 5km range or less and sailing along like that. Not 1 main gun shell was fire by either of us.

Not sure if such agreements are within the rules are not. But since it was just the 2 of us and we did fight to the death I saw no harm in it and was fun. Would have loved to have seen what my Bismarck looked like at the end as I had never seen so many shell holes in a ship in my life as what Mass had looked like from all my Bismarck secondary shells hitting it.

At that range the accuracy of the Mass is in fact a flaws: secondary target the citadel (because you know, the crew of those small guns do really want to pierce the thickest part of the ships) and the accuracy of mass make it land far more shot on the armored belt of your bis, doing no damage. While your accuracy is “thrash”, so they target the citadel but end up hitting the superstructure, bow, stern and other softer part more often. Plus some of you guns do pierce 32mm of plating, while the Mass cannot.

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1 hour ago, Lady_Athena said:

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

I would very much like clarification on this.

One could argue that the premium USN BBs have better secondaries, and I could see a strong case being made there, but they do completely different things. USN scondaries are good against DDs and spreading fires around due to their increased accuracy meaning they don't need manual secondaries. They, however, suck at damaging heavy cruisers and BB because of their poor penetration.

However, I'm still of the opinion the German secondaries are the best, since when built for secondaries, they are good against DDs, and phenomenal against everything else. They will absolutely eat through any bow-tanking ship due to them having 32mm+ penetration, in addition to setting fires.

As for French secondaries... worthless except for memes. While they have a bit more range, they have no boosted accuracy and garbage penetration, meaning you spend many upgrade slots and skill points for fires and pretty much nothing else. Not to mention ships that vulnerable to HE spam want to stay back...

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1 minute ago, Muninn77 said:

One could argue that the premium USN BBs have better secondaries

Massa and Georgia do. Everything else does not.

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9 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

At that range the accuracy of the Mass is in fact a flaws: secondary target the citadel (because you know, the crew of those small guns do really want to pierce the thickest part of the ships) and the accuracy of mass make it land far more shot on the armored belt of your bis, doing no damage. While your accuracy is “thrash”, so they target the citadel but end up hitting the superstructure, bow, stern and other softer part more often. Plus some of you guns do pierce 32mm of plating, while the Mass cannot.

That would be the reason for the hull looking like it did. 

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17 minutes ago, Lert said:

Massa and Georgia do. Everything else does not.

Don't discount Ohio either.

Either way, I figured that pretty much everyone reading this thread knew what ships I was referring to. 

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19 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

Don't discount Ohio either.

Right, sorry. I should've remembered that since I have one. Probably just forgot to mention it because it's a very rare ship, compared to Massa and Georgia.

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

Right, sorry. I should've remembered that since I have one. Probably just forgot to mention it because it's a very rare ship, compared to Massa and Georgia.

 

226EC982-A2F9-418E-8BCC-AEC8A4B4B369.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

Because right now German ships are a joke. Everybody who isn't a troll knows it.. Every major Unicum has admitted to it. They just have nothing going for them..

they used to have a good meme build with secondaries, but now high tier American BB's, and even French BB's have better secondaries by a long shot.. More accurate, nearly the same range (only off by like .5km in most cases), and shoot faster..

 

A few U.S. BB's secondaries actually out perform German BB's stock against a German BB fully kitted with secondary build..

Actually, german scondaries form tier 7-10 need a slight buff in accuracy; such buff should be at the same level of those on Massa/Georgia

 

1 hour ago, Ranari said:

.............

And in closing, there is a bug with the Bismarck that greatly hurts her secondary performance.  I've submitted it a few times but to no avail.  Maybe @Lert or someone famous (ie, not me lol) can get WG's attention?  You can see it below.

 

100% agree with this. Plus in general, german secondaries fire angles on tier 7-10 BBs need a a slgith improvement.

Edited by Xwing_Red1

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3 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

Not really.. no..

 

Those IFHE changes hurt them, because the IFHE is significantly more potent against said German ships.

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1 hour ago, Ranari said:

Yes and no. 

American secondaries are the most consistent due three primary reasons:

  • The best firing angles of all major players, meaning more American guns are firing at a given time.
  • Having sufficient penetration for the most important targets (DD's and BB's) without needing IFHE
  • American module selection allows for BOTH improved main battery and secondary battery accuracy (and secondary range)

Do that Secondaries Build on North Carolina, Colorado, Iowa / Missouri, New Mexico, Montana, New York, Wyoming, South Carolina, Alabama, Texas, West Virginia '41, Arizona.

 

I f**king dare you.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

I'd rather see Germans BBs get a buff on accuracy and in certain cases like GK maybe a little more firing range.

Out to what?  15km?  GK already has very long range secondaries, and the default HE Pen on the 128mm guns are ridiculous already at 32mm.

 

In addition, the 105mm secondaries for German BBs on Tier VII-IX have 26mm default HE Pen.

Meanwhile the 100mm secondaries on FR BBs have 17mm HE Pen.  Alsace, Jean Bart, Richelieu, etc. secondaries can't even HE Pen High Tier DD Hulls nor High Tier BB Superstructure without IFHE.

USN 127mm secondaries have 21mm HE Pen.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Do that Secondaries Build on North Carolina, Colorado, Iowa / Missouri, New Mexico, Montana, New York, Wyoming, South Carolina, Alabama, Texas, West Virginia '41, Arizona.

 

I f**king dare you.

No...Maybe Montana's, but the others are not worth it.

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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Do that Secondaries Build on North Carolina, Colorado, Iowa / Missouri, New Mexico, Montana, New York, Wyoming, South Carolina, Alabama, Texas, West Virginia '41, Arizona.

I f**king dare you.

Uhh, why?

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5 minutes ago, Ranari said:

Uhh, why?

Go see how those Secondaries are on Colorado, North Carolina, Iowa, etc.  Because what you posted is irrelevant for the USN BB Line for many reasons.

1.  Range.

2.  Rate of Fire.

Those are critical aspects for good secondaries, and the USN BB Line doesn't have that.  Even if you throw in BFT and for Tier IX-X the slot 6 upgrade to improve the ROF a bit more, they still fire slow.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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