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enderland07

Data why shooting AP is better in the Montana than HE

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From the official WoWS discord Q/A:

image.thumb.png.d323579ed9e7d42083ebf6be3f832ec4.png

 

Players deal on average almost 3x the damage with AP as they do with HE/fires, per shell fired. 

I thought this was interesting data and given that apparently one in four salvos from Montana's are HE, it seems it could be a useful thing for players to realize.

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Might this be in part because HE tends to be fired at the hardest-to-hit targets, that also have lower HP totals, resulting in a lower damage percentage than shots-fired percentage? 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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It is too bad that this general form of information is not publicly posted to allow everyone to benefit from its analysis. 

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14 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

From the official WoWS discord Q/A:

image.thumb.png.d323579ed9e7d42083ebf6be3f832ec4.png

 

Players deal on average almost 3x the damage with AP as they do with HE/fires, per shell fired. 

I thought this was interesting data and given that apparently one in four salvos from Montana's are HE, it seems it could be a useful thing for players to realize.

but, would not this data be "biased?"
And by that I mean, that of course most of the damage is from AP because most of the shells fired are AP.

stands to reason that if 74% if the shells downrange are AP shells the damage numbers will skew for those shells, vs HE shells, combined with the fires they set...
SO 88% damage from a 74% shell type, vs 26%....

My question is,,, IF someone were to do a weeks worth of testing in a Montana firing AP and HE 50/50, with a HUGE volume for data purposes what would those numbers be...

 

and ALSO, if someone fired 74% HE vs 26% AP, to coincide with those world wide numbers, (albeit a smaller sample size if only one person were to do this) Would those numbers now FAVOR the HE total damage, vs AP...

Edited by neptunes_wrath

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Just now, neptunes_wrath said:

but, would not this data be "biased?"
And by that I mean, that of course most of the damage is from AP because most of the shells fired are AP.

stands to reason that if 74% if the shells downrange are AP shells the damage numbers will skew for those shells, vs HE shells, combined with the fires they set...
SO 88% damage from a 74% shell type, vs 26%....

My question is,,, IF someone were to do a weeks worth of testing in a Montana firing AP and HE 50/50, with a HUGE volume for data purposes what would those numbers be...

Plug in 100,000 damage for the total. In 100 shells fired.

HE/fire damage does 10,000 damage for 26 shells, or 384 damage per shell.

AP does 88,000 damage over 74 shells, or 1189 per shell.

1189/384 = 3.1x more damage per AP shell.

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Beyond 15-18 km I use he in Monty. AP shatters or bounces too much at that range. Inside that range I change to AP but with Doe as commander it’s only 7 sec to change to he if I need to shoot a bb how in 

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8 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Plug in 100,000 damage for the total. In 100 shells fired.

HE/fire damage does 10,000 damage for 26 shells, or 384 damage per shell.

AP does 88,000 damage over 74 shells, or 1189 per shell.

1189/384 = 3.1x more damage per AP shell.

again that is based on the TOTAL number of shell type... if HE were the dominant shell type fired... what would the math turn into for total damage per shell type then>>?>?

Not trying to argue  but the bias is in the difference in the % of shell type used...
In all actuality all the data really says is more people fire AP rounds in the Montana than HE rounds, so the damage total for AP will ALWAYS be more than HE because more AP rounds were fired...>>
HE damage includes fires, so when the numbers can be calculated at a 50% USAGE FROM EITHER SHELL, I am thinking the totals will be different...
But that would have to be a long grueling experiment in shells fired over a long period of time to know the benefits of which shells do more damage as a WHOLE when used the same amount of salvos combined...

 

that was what I was getting at.. the damage totals for AP is higher because the AP usage is higher...

 

if that makes any sense to my point

 

I think this would make a GREAT contest or something... we get like 100 People to play ONLY a MONTANA for a SET number of battles.. lets say 100... and FIFTY battles ONLY fire HE and the other fifty AP... 
There might have to be a lot of math based on number of shells landed of each type, along with damage from =those hits, etc.. and see what kind of numbers we get... perhaps there can be some compensation for this experiment in  the form of a day or two of premium time, is WG entertains experiments from the payer base...

Edited by neptunes_wrath

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

Plug in 100,000 damage for the total. In 100 shells fired.

HE/fire damage does 10,000 damage for 26 shells, or 384 damage per shell.

AP does 88,000 damage over 74 shells, or 1189 per shell.

1189/384 = 3.1x more damage per AP shell.

I do a similar analysis after every battle in a CA or BB.  A lot of times it's hard in a BB to calculate your overall HE+fire damage, since at least some of the fire damage is from secondaries.   There are a lot of ships where I really, really, really want to load AP, since the salvos yield massive damage when you get the right angle.  I have to force myself to load HE sometimes.  I usually start the match with HE loaded, just in case I get a shot at a DD, and then switch to AP when we start to mix it up.  But in Puerto Rico, for instance, when I look at the numbers after a battle, it often appears I would have been better off just slinging HE the whole time, even before I factor in the fire damage.  Also, if I see a bunch of Des Moines, Moskvas, and Stalingrads, I'll assume I'm going to be shooting HE for most of the match, since I'll never see anything but their bows.

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11 minutes ago, neptunes_wrath said:

again that is based on the TOTAL number of shell type... if HE were the dominant shell type fired... what would the math turn into for total damage per shell type then>>?>?

Not trying to argue  but the bias is in the difference in the % of shell type used...
In all actuality all the data really says is more people fire AP rounds in the Montana than HE rounds, so the damage total for AP will ALWAYS be more than HE because more AP rounds were fired...>>
HE damage includes fires, so when the numbers can be calculated at a 50% USAGE FROM EITHER SHELL, I am thinking the totals will be different...
But that would have to be a long grueling experiment in shells fired over a long period of time to know the benefits of which shells do more damage as a WHOLE when used the same amount of salvos combined...

 

that was what I was getting at.. the damage totals for AP is higher because the AP usage is higher...

 

if that makes any sense to my point

 

I think this would make a GREAT contest or something... we get like 100 People to play ONLY a MONTANA for a SET number of battles.. lets say 100... and FIFTY battles ONLY fire HE and the other fifty AP... 
There might have to be a lot of math based on number of shells landed of each type, along with damage from =those hits, etc.. and see what kind of numbers we get... perhaps there can be some compensation for this experiment in  the form of a day or two of premium time, is WG entertains experiments from the payer base...

Are you just intentionally ignoring the math you quoted?

I'm super confused what you are getting at. 

The 3x comes from the damage per shell for AP compared against damage per shell+fires for HE. On average, the AP does 3x the damage as the HE+fire damage per shell fired based on the numbers WG provided.

 

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5 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Plus, if a ship with a higher fire rating, say a ship of the Royal Navy change the outcome?

Conqerour / Thunderer

... what?

 

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

... what?

 

Sorry, misread title. Disregard 

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Well if your in a Montana your shooting HE at angled or bow on targets only no ? So 1 in 4 salvos aren't doing too much damage to angled targets or bow on targets . Still I think that chart would be fairly obvious AP does much more damage and is used more in the Montana .

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AP does depend on cooperating target presenting broadside though.

Though I will use AP on bow-in BBs since deck armor can't stop my Monty's AP.

Generally HE is only vs. bow-in CRs and DDs.

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Anecdotal argument here; pretty much any ship I play, I almost always gets comparable damage to HE with half or fewer shells in AP.

AP is just plain better than HE, even factoring-in the fire damage.

The only issue is that it requires some experience and mechanical knowledge to ascertain the correct cases for its use. Hence why a lot of people just stick to HE (especially in cruisers and DDs); it's foolproof and hassle-free.

But again, AP is simply better provided you know when to shoot and where to shoot, for practically every ship in the game.

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