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wesley001

British King George class battleships

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What's with the low numbers on the King George class British battleships. Classified a tier 7 the same as the Hood! This British class has been rated as the best armored battleships of WW 2 behind the Japanese behemoth Yamoto. World of Warships needs to hire a competent naval historian before they design war games. 

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WG says it’s on par with the Sinop... with a straight face :cap_old:

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32 minutes ago, wesley001 said:

What's with the low numbers on the King George class British battleships. Classified a tier 7 the same as the Hood! This British class has been rated as the best armored battleships of WW 2 behind the Japanese behemoth Yamoto. World of Warships needs to hire a competent naval historian before they design war games. 

Gun caliber is for much. For a long time WG did not like to have drop in caliber withing a line (which create stuff like Cleveland lower than Pepsicola). But yeah British ships tend to be somewhat lower (like London at tier 6).

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20 minutes ago, wesley001 said:

What's with the low numbers on the King George class British battleships. Classified a tier 7 the same as the Hood! This British class has been rated as the best armored battleships of WW 2 behind the Japanese behemoth Yamoto. World of Warships needs to hire a competent naval historian before they design war games. 

KGV has 14” guns. The only tech tree BB with smaller guns at tier VII is the French Lyon (13.4”) and she has sixteen of them. Her 14” AP struggles when bottom tier, in no small part because she cannot overmatch the 25mm plating found on most tier VIII+ cruisers. She also is unable to overmatch the bows and sterns of tier VI-VII BBs (26mm). At tier VIII with her historical armament she would have a lot of disadvantages vs her counterparts. WG realized this when developing the British battleship line, and in fact tier VIII Monarch is essentially a KGV with the 10 14” guns swapped out for 9 15” rifles.

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4 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

KGV has 14” guns. The only tech tree BB with smaller guns at tier VII is the French Lyon (13.4”) and she has sixteen of them. Her 14” AP struggles when bottom tier, in no small part because she cannot overmatch the 25mm plating found on most tier VIII+ cruisers. She also is unable to overmatch the bows and sterns of tier VI-VII BBs (26mm). At tier VIII with her historical armament she would have a lot of disadvantages vs her counterparts. WG realized this when developing the British battleship line, and in fact tier VIII Monarch is essentially a KGV with the 10 14” guns swapped out for 9 15” rifles.

Well not really. Sure KGV cannot overmatch, but like all the British BB she get good HE to by pass this problem. Plus, her 14'' had similar armor piercing than 15'' of many navy so.... Yes, she could have been put at tier 8.

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When the British BB line was first announced the Tier VII was Nelson and the Tier VIII was KGV.  WG decided that the all guns forward on Nelson and the caliber downgrade on KGV produced a less than smooth tech line and so moved Nelson to FXP, bumped KGV down to Tier VII and created the Frankenstein Monarch out of a KGV hull and superstructure and Nelson turrets (3D model, not gun data) to make something that is terrible and not historical.

If it were my choice FXP Nelson would be replaced in player's inventories with Rodney, Nelson returned to the Tier VII tech tree, KGV bumped back up to Tier VIII with all the ensuing buffs that includes and Monarch deleted.  KGV's HE would enable it to find some success in Tier X matches and having 32mm plating would significantly boost its survivability.  Increase its firing range, and maybe rate of fire.  If need be give it the British superheal.  It would have been fine.

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13 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

When the British BB line was first announced the Tier VII was Nelson and the Tier VIII was KGV.  WG decided that the all guns forward on Nelson and the caliber downgrade on KGV produced a less than smooth tech line and so moved Nelson to FXP, bumped KGV down to Tier VII and created the Frankenstein Monarch out of a KGV hull and superstructure and Nelson turrets (3D model, not gun data) to make something that is terrible and not historical.

If it were my choice FXP Nelson would be replaced in player's inventories with Rodney, Nelson returned to the Tier VII tech tree, KGV bumped back up to Tier VIII with all the ensuing buffs that includes and Monarch deleted.  KGV's HE would enable it to find some success in Tier X matches and having 32mm plating would significantly boost its survivability.  Increase its firing range, and maybe rate of fire.  If need be give it the British superheal.  It would have been fine.

The other big part of the problem is that WGs simplified armor model doesn't always represent the strengths of a ships armor scheme well. In reality all that thin plate on ships like Bizmark was a detriment and waste of displacement but because of the way gun/armor interaction is simplified it gains advantages it never had. I also think the short fuze UK AP shells don't do justice to the power of those 14" rifles in real life.

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2 words

gun accuracy!:cap_rambo:

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The Prince of Wales, a King George class battleship, during the battle of the straits, hit the Bismarck with her 14" guns and forced the German battleship to abandon her mission. Prince of Wales was hit numerous times, unlike the Hood, yet carried on and shadowed both German ships until her fuel levels became critical forcing her to return to base. This famous battle shows the durability and power of the King George class battleships. Of the five ships in this class only one was lost during WWll. How WOS can rate her survivability below the Hood is beyond me!

Edited by wesley001
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The British 14 inch gun was relatively accurate, had a large projectile and performed admirably in two major engagements (Bismarck and Scharnhorst) with well armoured capitol ships. The attributes put on it in this game are a joke! The KGVs as has been stated above were a thoroughly advanced design compared to contemporary capitol ships. I long ago learnt that WG is poor at developing the ships in game to anything like they historically were, of course they got the historically significant Russian ships correct every time.

I am also pretty certain it was the only BB calibre large gun to sink a modern contemporary designed capitol ship in the second world war.

Edited by Targeted
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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well not really. Sure KGV cannot overmatch, but like all the British BB she get good HE to by pass this problem. Plus, her 14'' had similar armor piercing than 15'' of many navy so.... Yes, she could have been put at tier 8.

Yeah, she can use her HE to hit angled cruisers and (if she was tier VIII) lower-tier BBs, but that is something that none of her counterparts would have to do. It’s telling that WG has yet to release a tier VIII BB with less than 15” guns. Granted, we are getting Odin soon, but she is an unconvential premium battleship in the same mold as another unconventional premium battleship (Scharnhorst). In fact, Polvata started her life as a tier VIII, and IIRC one of the reasons she was downtiered was WG was not happy with the performance of her 356mm guns at that tier. Regardless of the historical performance of shells, the artificial overmatch mechanics are a huge part of the game.

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

When the British BB line was first announced the Tier VII was Nelson and the Tier VIII was KGV.  WG decided that the all guns forward on Nelson and the caliber downgrade on KGV produced a less than smooth tech line and so moved Nelson to FXP, bumped KGV down to Tier VII and created the Frankenstein Monarch out of a KGV hull and superstructure and Nelson turrets (3D model, not gun data) to make something that is terrible and not historical

^This too, and this is at least an understandable approach. WG tends to try to make tech tree ships more accessible and have a smoother transition between tiers, while premium ships are often more bold departures from the norm (or at least a lot of good ones are, IMO).

Basically, it’s not that I don’t think 14” guns with British HE and other characteristics couldn’t work at tier VIII, but it would be a poor choice for a tech tree battleship, and there was no way WG could make a British BB line without KGV considering the wartime service of the class. In fact, Scharnhorst is one of my favorite ships despite her small gun caliber, but there’s a reason I didn’t mention her in my initial post. You have to play around her smaller guns and she doesn’t play like any other BB at her tier nor Bayern or Bismarck. She’s a great premium, but would be a poor tech-tree ship and Gneisenau has 15” guns as a result instead of the historical 11.” A hypothetical post-war refit of the KGV class would have been an interesting premium (it’s not like we don’t see sister-ships with different armor schemes a.la Amagi and Ashitaka), but with DoY in the game that seems unlikely.

It’s a bit of a shame because KGV’s contemporaries are tier 8, so yes, historically she belongs at that tier, but the game mechanics and WG’s design choices made it otherwise.

1 hour ago, wesley001 said:

The Prince of Wales, a King George class battleship, during the battle of the straits, hit the Bismarck with her 14" guns and forced the German battleship to abandon her mission. Prince of Wales was hit numerous times, unlike the Hood, yet carried on and shadowed both German ships until her fuel levels became critical forcing her to return to base. This famous battle shows the durability and power of the King George class battleships. Of the five ships in this class only one was lost during WWll. How WOS can rate her survivability below the Hood is beyond me!

Hood is very tanky when angled properly, largely due to her extended fore and aft armor belts and her 51mm deck, but she is very much a battlecruiser. You show too much side and you will get punished hard. Her belt is pretty thin for her tier and she’s a large ship with a huge citadel. Keep in mind too that KGV and other British BBs had their citadels raised a while back - they used to be harder to citadel. Hood, being a premium without a tech-tree sister... WG is unlikely to try to nerf her.

Edited by Nevermore135

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15 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Yeah, she can use her HE to hit angled cruisers and (if she was tier VIII) lower-tier BBs, but that is something that none of her counterparts would have to do. It’s telling that WG has yet to release a tier VIII BB with less than 15” guns. Granted, we are getting Odin soon, but she is an unconvential premium battleship in the same mold as another unconventional premium battleship (Scharnhorst). In fact, Polvata started her life as a tier VIII, and IIRC one of the reasons she was downtiered was WG was not happy with the performance of her 356mm guns at that tier. Regardless of the historical performance of shells, the artificial overmatch mechanics are a huge part of the game.

Well, this is something that many tier 8 bb must already do: Hipper and Baltimore already are immune to overmatch from Richelieu, Bismarck and Monarch caliber. So yeah, in some circumstance BB must already switch to HE against some cruiser bow in. And RN BB are made to be basically HE launcher: even with KGV at tier 7 you end up shooting far more HE than AP. So in term of balance it could have work quite well.

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2 hours ago, FrodoFraggin said:

WG says it’s on par with the Sinop... with a straight face :cap_old:

That's because she is, in terms of performance.

Some interesting numbers from big Russia server.  1st Quarter 2020 stats for tech tree Tier VII Battleships.

KGV 182,983 battles / 50.63% WR / 52,514 dmg avg

Sinop 498,916 battles / 50.77% WR / 49,851 dmg avg

Colorado 225,453 battles / 48.18% WR / 44,649 dmg avg

Lyon 235,321 battles / 50.49% WR / 51,919 dmg avg

Gneisenau 371,778 battles / 49.67% WR / 42,791 dmg avg

Nagato 288,074 battles / 47.89% WR / 45,096 dmg avg

 

It's obviously clear which BB the large RU playerbase prefers to play, but they still played KGV more than we have here in NA server (127,818 battles on KGV).  KGV still puts in a fantastic showing.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, this is something that many tier 8 bb must already do: Hipper and Baltimore already are immune to overmatch from Richelieu, Bismarck and Monarch caliber. So yeah, in some circumstance BB must already switch to HE against some cruiser bow in. And RN BB are made to be basically HE launcher: even with KGV at tier 7 you end up shooting far more HE than AP. So in term of balance it could have work quite well.

I have always likened the tech tree RN BBs as honorary members of the Fraternity of Cruisers.  Even their target choice is obvious.

 

Regular BB:  "Imma find some Cruisers to smash."

RN BB:  "Imma burn down some Battleships."

:Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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24 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, this is something that many tier 8 bb must already do: Hipper and Baltimore already are immune to overmatch from Richelieu, Bismarck and Monarch caliber. So yeah, in some circumstance BB must already switch to HE against some cruiser bow in. And RN BB are made to be basically HE launcher: even with KGV at tier 7 you end up shooting far more HE than AP. So in term of balance it could have work quite well.

This is true, but there is a difference between being unable to overmatch equal tier and higher German and American CAs, and being unable to overmatch any equal tier or higher cruiser that isn’t a British CL, as well as any BB 1-2 tiers lower. You would have one battleship in a line that wouldn’t play like a battleship, but rather the game’s first supercruiser. At tier VII though, there are no cruisers with 25mm extremities (at least at the time of the line release), and you can enjoy being top tier against tier 5 BBs with 19mm of plating.

All of this was very relevant to why WG chose to put the class at tier VII vs. tier VIII.

Edited by Nevermore135

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39 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

That's because she is, in terms of performance.

Some interesting numbers from big Russia server.  1st Quarter 2020 stats for tech tree Tier VII Battleships.

KGV 182,983 battles / 50.63% WR / 52,514 dmg avg

Sinop 498,916 battles / 50.77% WR / 49,851 dmg avg

Colorado 225,453 battles / 48.18% WR / 44,649 dmg avg

Lyon 235,321 battles / 50.49% WR / 51,919 dmg avg

Gneisenau 371,778 battles / 49.67% WR / 42,791 dmg avg

Nagato 288,074 battles / 47.89% WR / 45,096 dmg avg

 

It's obviously clear which BB the large RU playerbase prefers to play, but they still played KGV more than we have here in NA server (127,818 battles on KGV).  KGV still puts in a fantastic showing.

The KGV will put up decent dmg via HE spam - damage that is 100% heal-able.  I’ll take Stalin AP any day.  

WR is a bizarre metric for performance unless MM worked such that a maximum of only one ship, KGV for example, can be in any battle.  But in our reality, a KGV can be on both teams, or multiples across both teams, and the numbers are going to be biased around, oh I don’t know... 50%. The min/max WR of a given tier of a given class is probably within the noise.  

Sure RN BBs have good RoF and strong HE - but that’s not what matters.  WG showed their hand when the Conqueror was initially released and the sky fell - anyone recall Mega-Zao?  WG somewhat surprisingly gave us a small glimpse into their spreadsheet analysis which had numbers we normally don’t have access to and stated that the Conq was indeed above average dmg for T10 BBs - but *it didn't matter*.  I suspect their spreadsheets told them that good gun handling, ballistics and penetration would trump slow turning, hard-to-hit-much guns like that of the Brit’s, despite RoF and fire setting.  Guess how Russian BBs were designed... I’m currently working up the Lion and Sov Soyuz, the Lions’ heal is nice, no doubt, but never in a million games would I take it over the Soyuz.

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In general:

  • Because WG say so
  • Because main armor belt thickness is nice but less relevant in a game with lots of HE spam and where all-or-nothing armor schemes are disadvantaged
  • Because deck armor is fairly irrelevant in game
  • Because of rather questionable overmatch mechanics relating to 14in guns and 25mm plating
  • Because WG hold back the KGV in a number of other ways

Right now, given Monarch has worse HE, no advantage in HP, armor (outside the turrets) maneuverability it's pretty easy to say you could make a workable T8 KGV, especially as the value of 15in overmatch is diminished with more and more 27mm plating out there.

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1 hour ago, FrodoFraggin said:

The KGV will put up decent dmg via HE spam - damage that is 100% heal-able.  I’ll take Stalin AP any day.  

WR is a bizarre metric for performance unless MM worked such that a maximum of only one ship, KGV for example, can be in any battle.  But in our reality, a KGV can be on both teams, or multiples across both teams, and the numbers are going to be biased around, oh I don’t know... 50%. The min/max WR of a given tier of a given class is probably within the noise.  

Sure RN BBs have good RoF and strong HE - but that’s not what matters.  WG showed their hand when the Conqueror was initially released and the sky fell - anyone recall Mega-Zao?  WG somewhat surprisingly gave us a small glimpse into their spreadsheet analysis which had numbers we normally don’t have access to and stated that the Conq was indeed above average dmg for T10 BBs - but *it didn't matter*.  I suspect their spreadsheets told them that good gun handling, ballistics and penetration would trump slow turning, hard-to-hit-much guns like that of the Brit’s, despite RoF and fire setting.  Guess how Russian BBs were designed... I’m currently working up the Lion and Sov Soyuz, the Lions’ heal is nice, no doubt, but never in a million games would I take it over the Soyuz.

WR% is a pretty good metric to take in assessing a ship's worth in the game.  Even in the tech tree ships, you can find the ones widely considered to be good having a nice 50%+ WR and the subpar ones having much lower.  Sinop, Lyon, KGV have good WR% while the old, obsolete, and problematic Nagato, Colorado, Gneisenau got issues, and it reflects in their WR%.  It even shows in Dmg.

 

But WR%, like Sigma, isn't the end-all-be-all.  You have to look at other things also.

 

You make RN BB HE sound insignificant but there is a very, very long and extremely extensive history on BB whine threads about RN BB HE shells.

 

And FYI, I was in the middle of all those "Nerf Conqueror!" threads and I defended Conqueror.  She was an HE + Fire spammer pressuring other Battleships, while regular BBs were looking to crush Cruisers first... BB players didn't like one of their own kind farming them :Smile_trollface:  Still, a bunch of guys around here screamed bloody murder about RN BB HE.

 

Another thing I want to add that keeps KGV competitive in a typical game.  RN BB Mega HE shells keep her relevant even in a Tier IX game as her HE doesn't care about armor.  Meanwhile, Sinop's strong AP, while still quite good, is going to have to work a lot harder when she is fighting opponents that she can't just simply Overmatch into submission anymore.  She can Overmatch same and lower tier BBs for example.  But Massachusetts, Amagi, Vladivostok, Musashi, Georgia, Iowa, etc... She can't simply Overmatch them like she can mid and lower tier threats.  Those higher tier BBs can simply do Bow On / Angling tactics and now Sinop has to do other things.  Meanwhile, KGV doesn't care.  KGV doesn't give a f--k.

Musashi 58mm deck armor?

Sovetsky Soyuz 60mm deck armor?

German BB 50mm deck armor?

High Tier USN BB 38mm deck armor?

KGV doesn't care.  To her, she'll Pen and Burn them as if they were a New York.

 

Anyways, getting back to what I said originally in my first post.  All this... KGV is just fine.  She is doing fine and her performance is up there with the BBs considered good this tier.

You want bad performance?  Like, Tier VII BBs that need help?  It's not KGV, I'll tell you that now.  It's Colorado, Nagato, and Gneisenau that need help.  Even the stats show that as all 3 are lagging behind.  But not KGV.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Meanwhile, KGV doesn't care.  KGV doesn't give a f--k.

KGV doesn't care.  To her, she'll Pen and Burn them as if they were a New York.

KGV is the Honey Badger of Tier VII.

So nasty.

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Look what WG did to Vanguard, IRL arguably the most durable and advanced BB ever constructed.

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6 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

Hood, being a premium without a tech-tree sister... WG is unlikely to try to nerf her.

WG already changed Hood's gun characteristics, iirc pertaining to shell fuse, in a previous patch. Which many have argued before made her gunnery worse. Hood's original AA 'no fly zone' gimmick was also for all intents and purposes removed during the CV rework as well. Overall it's a worse ship than when it came out.

The "WG don't nerf premiums" ship sailed long ago. They can and they will make premium ships worse, either indirectly as 'mechanics changes' or directly when they can get away with it without too much outcry. "Duke of York is OP and needs a raised citadel" said no one ever. WG imho should've left it alone so DoY had some selling point over KGV.

 

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KGV!!!!!!   :cap_cool:

  

The T7 for the KGV is a nice fit.  Others have explained some of the reasons for it.  Also note that one of the oft overlooked advantages is the high rate of fire and super heal.  So even with everything else WG still felt the need to give it other advantages even at T7.

In some sense, this actually fits the motif.  KGV, due to its rapid fire (for a BB), super heal, and the ability to go from very good AP to very good HE, is able to adapt to many different situation, and adapt across many tiers...both top tier as well as bottom tier.  In real life, the UK had to develop a ship that could adapt to many situations as it would be called upon for many situations.  Although the mapping from real life to game life isn't a one to one mapping (if any mapping at all in the real life sense), it does create a parallel MINDSET (coupled to a game capability set) that mirrors a "jack of all trades" motif, even if limited primarily to the game world.  This is almost genius if you think about it.  T7 is a perfect fit in this regard. 

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18 hours ago, wesley001 said:

The Prince of Wales, a King George class battleship, during the battle of the straits, hit the Bismarck with her 14" guns and forced the German battleship to abandon her mission. Prince of Wales was hit numerous times, unlike the Hood, yet carried on and shadowed both German ships until her fuel levels became critical forcing her to return to base. This famous battle shows the durability and power of the King George class battleships. Of the five ships in this class only one was lost during WWll. How WOS can rate her survivability below the Hood is beyond me!

The game greatly favors historically inefficient distributed armor schemes such as Bismarck's.  Hood has a distributed armor scheme, Nelson and KGV do not.  This is due to the unrealistic HE mechanics and unrealistic AP mechanics.  Autobouncing is a real thing, but it happens at far shallower impact angles than in the game.  In the game, Hood angled so that Musashi's 460mm AP hits its 127mm at 67 degrees it will automatically bounce.  In reality the 3200lb AP shell would go through 127mm of armor like it wasn't there on a 67 degree impact.

17 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

Hood is very tanky when angled properly, largely due to her extended fore and aft armor belts and her 51mm deck, but she is very much a battlecruiser. You show too much side and you will get punished hard. Her belt is pretty thin for her tier and she’s a large ship with a huge citadel. Keep in mind too that KGV and other British BBs had their citadels raised a while back - they used to be harder to citadel. Hood, being a premium without a tech-tree sister... WG is unlikely to try to nerf her.

Couple of points about Hood.  Her belt is actually thicker than Lyons and Sinops and as thick as Nagato's.  She has battleship armor, yes on the thinner side of it, but still battleship armor.  As to her citadel, well, Hood sits so low in the water due to the extra armor added during construction that there is no way to move her citadel above water.  She also, unlike Nelson, KGV and so on, has a turtleback so her citadel is very well defined in her blueprints.

Edited by Helstrem

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KGv battle ships ww2 ones should have 12 x 14in gun option 3 quin turrets

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I thought there was a design for KGV that proposed 9 16” guns similar to NC class, just as NC class had a proposed design for 14” guns.

To me, a 9x16” Nelson would have been excellent at T7 tech tree (Lyon has 16 13.4s / Nagato has 8 16.1s), with KGV at T8 using 14” as stock, and 16”s as the upgraded guns. Then the player can decide, as with Mogami or FdG, if they want the fire starting 14’s or the US like 16’s. Would have been a neat combination, and they could have tweaked their armor a touch. I believe the class had a 13” belt? 

 

Edited by SuperComm4

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