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BarronRichthofen

Upcoming Z-35

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A repost of my coment HERE

 

So, I finally got around to looking at the specs on this Z-35. and to be Brutally honest,, wth are you thinking WG. A premium Tier 8 DD that is worse in every way save a very slight edge in maneuverability than the Tech Tree DD of the same Tier. (Z-23) 

So what is the incentive to buy this ship? 

Lower HP by 400 than the Z-23, Slower traverse on guns, higher dispersion on those guns, a slight, (.6sec) higher reload compared to the Z-23 with the 128mm guns. a slight  (1.3km) range advantage, but no engine boost, worse than Tier 6 torps (2km shorter range, 1kts slower), and basically the brit smoke. Slower (36.5 kts vs the 38.9 kts of the Z-32) but with a slight maneuverability increase 10m lower turning radius .1 sec rudder shift time. 

I just do not see "Premium" anywhere on this ship. I know it's a W.I.P. but Damn WG stop showing your anti-german Bias so much. This thing is sort of like a  Z-39, another Premium that IMO is worse than the Tech Tree ship of the same Tier.

TBH I love most german ships, but there are 2, I will not "buy" (Tripitz, Bismarck,-hydro+torps so meh ,and the Z-39) and your looking like making it 3. 

You want to make it a ship WORTH buying, give it the Gun's from the Z-46/52. Give it FAR better torps (german torps are lacking already thanks to power creep)  at least the G7 Steinbarsch (LM) or G7 Schildbutt (Z-23) Make it at least as fast as the Z-23, and can this Brit smoke and no engine boost. (give it standard German Smoke and Engine Boost) Then it would be worth the cost of a Premium ship.  As it is your asking me to shell out cash for a Premium ship that WILL GET IT"S [edited] BEAT by most other DD's of the same Tier and other German DD's of damn near every Tier above Tier 6. I know my T-61/Gade will Kick this thing's [edited] easily. 

Yeah the gun's have a slight advantage in range but with the CV meta we are facing that is a drawback. So to end all it get's a slight reload speed increase at the cost of engine boost, worse torps, and worse smoke. Sorry no way in H**E**L**L would I pay for this ship. 

GO back to the drawing board on this one WG Make it better or reduce it's tier to 6 at best (HP drop requierd for that).

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Erm, comparing the ships, you're wrong on most counts, I suspect you're comparing to a Z-23 with upgrades. If you compare them properly

  • Yes, 400 fewer HP
  • Traverse is the same, 22.5'/180
  • Reload is 3.4s vs. 4s, Z-35 well ahead
  • Z-35 has a 5th 128mm gun
  • Total DPM HE is 132,300 for Z-35 v. 90,000 for Z-23
  • Speeds are actually Z-35 at 36.5kt and Z-23 at 37kt (I think you're looking at Z-23 with a speed flag mounted...)
  • Z-35 appears to have worse dispersion because dispersion increases with range and Z-35 has 12.12km vs. 10.84km range
  • Z-35's main shortcoming is 6km torpedoes vs. 9.5km on the upgraded Z-23 ones

The 'point' of Z-35 seems to be that she combines much better DPM (47% more) with the better RN destroyer smokes and the German 5km hydro to be an impressive threat at short range. In compensation for this she loses out on torpedoes quite significantly, and engine boost.

Right now I think she might be a little weak, but overall she's not looking too bad and does have significant areas of advantage and disadvantage over the tree ship - a good premium

Z-39 is pretty solid too, and better than the Maass.

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On 5/13/2020 at 12:23 PM, mofton said:

Erm, comparing the ships, you're wrong on most counts, I suspect you're comparing to a Z-23 with upgrades. If you compare them properly

  • Yes, 400 fewer HP
  • Traverse is the same, 22.5'/180
  • Reload is 3.4s vs. 4s, Z-35 well ahead
  • Z-35 has a 5th 128mm gun
  • Total DPM HE is 132,300 for Z-35 v. 90,000 for Z-23
  • Speeds are actually Z-35 at 36.5kt and Z-23 at 37kt (I think you're looking at Z-23 with a speed flag mounted...)
  • Z-35 appears to have worse dispersion because dispersion increases with range and Z-35 has 12.12km vs. 10.84km range
  • Z-35's main shortcoming is 6km torpedoes vs. 9.5km on the upgraded Z-23 ones

The 'point' of Z-35 seems to be that she combines much better DPM (47% more) with the better RN destroyer smokes and the German 5km hydro to be an impressive threat at short range. In compensation for this she loses out on torpedoes quite significantly, and engine boost.

Right now I think she might be a little weak, but overall she's not looking too bad and does have significant areas of advantage and disadvantage over the tree ship - a good premium

Z-39 is pretty solid too, and better than the Maass.

Hey

But she still gets outgunned by a lot of boats, there is the detection question, and the worst part is 6km torps which means no stealth torps.  Maybe if they give 8km torps, that would be barely usable, but then she is slow,, with a low HP for closing those ridiculous 6km range torps, so no ambush possible.  Maybe a torp reload booster.  I don't think she is looking too promising given the many short comings with regards to German DD's in today's meta.  I just don't see a need for her when she can't out shoot even a European DD at this point.

 

Pete

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Remember the comparison has to be the Z-23 with 150mm guns.

Because you run the Z-23 with 150mm, NOT the 128mm guns. There's no point to the comparison if you don't assume that, because the Z-23 is made for the 150mm. It would be like comparing to a stock hull. 

And while the Z-35 does have better DPM than the 150mm Z-23, it's not terribly relevant. The 128mm guns on the Z-35 only really work on other DDs, they're not good enough to pen anything but superstructures on anything else, while the 150mm is good enough to punish cruisers quite well. Even IF the proposed /4 pen upgrade to KM DD HE goes through, the 150mm are FAR, FAR more powerful against anything but DDs. 

Tinkering with smoke duration and torpedoes is, well, indicative of a company that's lost control of what it's doing in the game, and is now favoring gimmicks over balance or even common sense.

 

Let's put it this way:  with a 6+km concealment, exactly how is the 5km Hydro and 6km torpedoes to be used, when practically everything around you can see you far enough away to get out of their effective range? And even the "upgraded" HE DPM on the thing is mediocre, so it's not going to be any real threat to the CURRENT short-range ships (US/RN).  Not to mention that it's gun layout doesn't exactly lead to being able to do the REAL way you use smoke and hydro - bow in.  That's why the RN DDs and the Z52 work. 

 

It does... ambushing well. Yeah. That's a reliable strategy on T8+ maps. Sure. All the time.   /sarcasm

----

The Z-39 is extremely solid, but that's because it was awarded something NO OTHER DD has at T7:  access to Upgrade slot 5, giving it the Concealment Mod.  Which automatically gives it virtually the best concealment of not just T7, but anything under T8.  For a ship that plays most of its life uptiered, that single advantage (now, I wouldn't go so far as call it a "gimmick", but I wouldn't be wrong if I did) is why it does so well. It literally has 1.5km better detection than the Maass, at a tier where concealment is THE single biggest determination of success in a DD in the entire game.  Nothing else in the Z-39 is noteworthy, or even particularly interesting. It's solely that 10% automatic concealment buff.

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Alright both Z-23 and Z-35 have 5 guns with identical traverse and accuracy in a similar layout, though having one less mount for a twin barrel can be seen as a downside against Z-23.

 

Z-35 uses 128mm guns with 17.65 RPM and Z-23 uses 150mm guns with 8.96 RPM

 

Z-35 benefits from BFT where Z-23 does not, climbing up to 19.61 RPM

 

Z-23 has 2200 max HE damage or 19712 DPM per gun and 3700 max AP damage or 33152 DPM per gun. Where Z-35 has 1500 max HE damage or 29415 DPM per gun and 3000 max AP damage or 58830 DPM per gun.

 

The ability to pen 32mm is no longer exclusive to Z-35 so points to Z-23 I guess.
 

Z-35 gets better range and can be extended if you really want to. While Z-23 can penetrate more at longer ranges with that AP, Z-35 doesn’t exactly care all that much with that damage output.

 

Z-35’s torps are worse than Z-23’s torps, they still exist, but play a more defensive role.

 

Z-35 gains fairly British traits of British smoke and no engine boost, it does mean more gunning from smoke and being more paranoid of torps. However the consumable juggle is worse, so the hydro is worse without actually being worse.

 


 

Basically a pew pew DD but German, afaik that AP DPM is best in tier for DDs by a lot and close to what Z-46 can dump out, excluding reload mod. It shouldn’t play too differently from a gun build in the tech tree and in classic German fashion, just gotta make that AP pen in the first place.

 

As for buffs, wg probably should mess around with the penetration so our local idol can spread that reign of AP terror a little further away. Or pull a Hindenburg with the reload so that close range is even more scary and rewarding.

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On 6/5/2020 at 1:53 AM, LAnybody said:

Remember the comparison has to be the Z-23 with 150mm guns.

Because you run the Z-23 with 150mm, NOT the 128mm guns. There's no point to the comparison if you don't assume that, because the Z-23 is made for the 150mm. It would be like comparing to a stock hull. 

And while the Z-35 does have better DPM than the 150mm Z-23, it's not terribly relevant. The 128mm guns on the Z-35 only really work on other DDs, they're not good enough to pen anything but superstructures on anything else, while the 150mm is good enough to punish cruisers quite well. Even IF the proposed /4 pen upgrade to KM DD HE goes through, the 150mm are FAR, FAR more powerful against anything but DDs. 

Tinkering with smoke duration and torpedoes is, well, indicative of a company that's lost control of what it's doing in the game, and is now favoring gimmicks over balance or even common sense.

 

Let's put it this way:  with a 6+km concealment, exactly how is the 5km Hydro and 6km torpedoes to be used, when practically everything around you can see you far enough away to get out of their effective range? And even the "upgraded" HE DPM on the thing is mediocre, so it's not going to be any real threat to the CURRENT short-range ships (US/RN).  Not to mention that it's gun layout doesn't exactly lead to being able to do the REAL way you use smoke and hydro - bow in.  That's why the RN DDs and the Z52 work. 

 

It does... ambushing well. Yeah. That's a reliable strategy on T8+ maps. Sure. All the time.   /sarcasm

----

The Z-39 is extremely solid, but that's because it was awarded something NO OTHER DD has at T7:  access to Upgrade slot 5, giving it the Concealment Mod.  Which automatically gives it virtually the best concealment of not just T7, but anything under T8.  For a ship that plays most of its life uptiered, that single advantage (now, I wouldn't go so far as call it a "gimmick", but I wouldn't be wrong if I did) is why it does so well. It literally has 1.5km better detection than the Maass, at a tier where concealment is THE single biggest determination of success in a DD in the entire game.  Nothing else in the Z-39 is noteworthy, or even particularly interesting. It's solely that 10% automatic concealment buff.

Not anymore.  They all have 1/4 pen ruling now.  Those 128's punish 32mm of armor.

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So when and how is it going to be available? I have missions that require them to be done in a Z35. Time is a-waisting.

Edited by ClayMoore_TPF

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13 hours ago, ClayMoore_TPF said:

So when and how is it going to be available? I have missions that require them to be done in a Z35. Time is a-waisting.

If you haven't found it already, it's in game client for 10k dubs.

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On 7/10/2020 at 2:20 AM, SlightlyComatose said:

If you haven't found it already, it's in game client for 10k dubs.

Not seeing it. Could it be that NA has not yet had it issued?

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On 7/10/2020 at 3:20 AM, SlightlyComatose said:

If you haven't found it already, it's in game client for 10k dubs.

I also am not seeing it.  Not convinced I want it, but would like to review her stats at my leisure.  Are you perhaps looking at the Z-39?

Edited by Uncle_Lou

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Hey

Don't waste your money on the Z35, just not worth it.  It has less to offer than the Z23 since base gun reload is not much better, turrets are sluggish and although they have good range don't seem to start fires all that well.  The torps are completely worthless unless a pure ambush in which your not going to live, and at 6km are a waste of time.  She has the same lack of speed, turn rate, turning circle as the Z23, so why bother.  The smoke are nice even if they are short duration but you get almost 1/2 of the hydro than the smoke charges (6ea versus 3ea).  No speed boost and still a lack of AA.  The one thing that would have made it interesting IMHO is if she had 8km torps to where she could at least stealth torp.  As is, there is nothing this DD brings to the table that ANY other T8 DD doesn't do better.  She needs the basic 10pt captain, plus BFT to buff the guns, SI for an additional smoke and hydro, EM if you want to knife fight and PM.  You could go AFT for more range but good luck hitting much.  Don't waste your money; another swing and a miss for Wargaming.

 

Pete

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