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alexf24

Bagration/Ochakov question

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I will wait for LWM and CCs comments, but from reading their specs I wonder.

I have Donskoi, why would I want Bagration?

I have Chapayev, Lazo, and Shchors. Why would I want Ochakov?

Seems to me all those already do the same job.

Edited by alexf24

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10 minutes ago, alexf24 said:

I have Donskoi, why would I want Bagration?

Because you want premium Donskoi at Tier 8, Comrade!

10 minutes ago, alexf24 said:

I have Chapayev, Lazo, and Shchors. Why would I want Ochakov?

Because you want premium light Russian Radar cruiser at T8! Same way people who play Baltimore buy Wichita!

 

OK, I'm being tongue in cheek, but it seems to me these new ships do have their particular niche. Whether they fill a gap in YOUR particular fleet lineup is a question only you can answer - and as always, if the answer is no, simply don't buy.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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Bagration has faster firing and more range (11s reload vs 12.5s, 18.48km vs 16.16km base range), but slower reload on the torps (131s vs 117s) and one less turret. Bagration is also wildly more stealthy (12.6km base detection vs 16.02km and it's slightly tankier at 42k HP vs 40.2k

Ochakov gets 8k torps, faster reload but 1 less gun per turret and is 2km less detection that Chapayev, but gives up 1800HP and the torps are also 131s reload (sloooow compared to the 74s reload on Chappy, but you can now hit stuff without suicide runs).

In both cases you also get the chance to play against lower-tier ships (T6 for Bagration vs Donskoi, T6 & T7 for Ochakov, which is basically  a baby Smolensk).

Based on the numbers, Bagration just made Donskoi grind-only simply because of the 3.5Km detection change. Ochakov is better than Chapayev in some cases, but not all.

Edited by Mawz77
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I was fooling around on fitting tool, here's a Bagration and Donskoi in similar builds.

 

Donskoi obviously has the benefit of having Slot 6 access because she's Tier IX while Bagration doesn't since she's Tier VIII.

HP:  Donskoi on paper has more HP at 43.4k HP, but I'm surprised how close Bagration is at 42k.  Another contrast is Baltimore has 42.4k HP.

 

Maneuverability & Speed:  Donskoi is actually slightly faster as well as better Turning Circle Radius.

 

Concealment:  Bagration is stealthier, 11km in Stealth Build while Donsoi is like a BB at 12.59km.

 

Torpedoes:  Both have the same torpedoes, even the same number of launchers at 2x5.  Donskoi reloads at 117 seconds vs Bagration's 131.

 

Guns & Shells:  This is where things get different.

Donskoi has 12 guns vs the 9 of Bagration.

Donskoi with MBM3 has the same 11 seconds reload as Bagration.

Bagration has better range at 18.48km while Donskoi has 17.78km range

HE shell values are the same.

AP:  This is where Bagration makes her name.

Bagration has marginally better AP damage, short fused AP (less Overpens), 10m/s higher velocity, improved bounce angles.

AP ricochet angles:

Bagration 55-65 degrees

Donskoi 45-60 degrees (normal)

Baltimore 60-67 degrees (special USN CA AP bounce angles)

Mogami 203mm AP 45-60 degrees (normal)

 

Bagration's AP penetration is better than Donskoi's.

FWT8Ytq.jpg

 

At the ranges people typically fight in, Bagration's AP retains more Penetration power than even Donskoi, Admiral Hipper, and Baltimore AP shells do.

 

Bagration's shells also fly fast and are level.  Better than even Donskoi's.

 

I do not own Bagration, so I can't view her armor & citadel protection scheme.

 

IMO, she looks like a Cruiser Killer, but BBs should be wary about showing too much of their superstructure even at range.

 

She does however have access to Repair Party.  Donskoi has it as a standard feature because all Tier IX Cruisers have access.  But below Tier IX, Cruiser Repair Party is a rare perk.  Baltimore, Cleveland, Charles Martel, Mogami, etc. don't have this perk in Tier VIII.  Bagration does, and she's in the same club as Prinz Eugen, Atago / ARP Takao.

 

I remember a month ago, Flamu had a WiP video on Bagration and he was disgusted with how strong the ship was.  Granted he's a Unicum and he'll make anything look good, but here's the video.  Remember, this video was when she was still in testing, I don't know what's changed since then with her going Live.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I'm spoiling things a little, but here you go:

Ochakov:  She's a tier VIII Smolensk-class cruiser.  Soothe your sweater-kittens, she's not like that. 

She's THE stealthiest tier VIII cruiser presently with a consumable list comparable to the American light cruisers.  So she out-spots or can stealth radar anything that trips over her.  With a good top speed and okay agility, she can move pretty confidently to flanking positions, set up shop behind a rock and start giving the business.  Unfortunately for her, she has only 2/3s of the main armament as comparable light cruisers which puts her damage output closer on par to a heavy cruiser without the increased penetration that comes with a jump up in caliber.  Finally, she is fragile as all get out.  Her 30,200 hit point pool is pathetic and some destroyers can out-trade her.  She does inherit Smolensk's trollish citadel, however lower-velocity and smaller caliber battleship guns are more prevalent within her Matchmaking which means betting on overpenetrations will end hilariously.

I can't seem to save my win rate in this ship, despite some pretty amazing performances (including a 2,200 base experience loss).  She's a decent destroyer hunter and it is fun sneaking around in her to harass big ships, but you really do feel squishy.  Her firepower is also kind of anemic unless people are kind enough to sail into your torpedoes.

Pyotr Bagration:  She is to Tallinn what Prinz Eugen is to Admiral Hipper (or what Atago is to Mogami 203mm).  This ship trades firepower and team-play utility for endurance. She has lower gun DPM and no Surveillance Radar access in order to play with a Repair Party instead.  She's long ranged and reasonably fast but not especially agile.  Still, she can kite from open water reasonably effectively, though hard cover is always preferable if you can find islands you can make use of.  Like all of the new Soviet 180mm armed ships, her damage output struggles but the ballistics on those guns is gorgeous.

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Thank you all. This clarifies thing a lot.

For the record I also have Baltimore & Wichita, Hipper & Prinz Eugen, so we will see if I want to spend for these. Coming in for free with tokens would be nice. Spending? We will see after I encounter some in battle.

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8 minutes ago, alexf24 said:

Thank you all. This clarifies thing a lot.

For the record I also have Baltimore & Wichita, Hipper & Prinz Eugen, so we will see if I want to spend for these. Coming in for free with tokens would be nice. Spending? We will see after I encounter some in battle.

No problem.  I played 15 games in Ochakov last night and wrote about 2,000 words worth of notes.  I'll be doing the same for Pyotr Bagration over this weekend.  Ochakov's review should be out Friday (I'm hoping).  Pyotr Bagration's will probably be before Wednesday next week, provided I don't die, burn-out, get distracted, etc.

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18 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

... provided I don't die, burn-out, get distracted, etc.

Don't die, don't burn-out, but by all means ... risk occasional distraction.  Life is out there ... waiting ... and the clock is ticking.  :Smile_honoring:

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Not sure I want to get either.  I have a hole in the higher tier RU premium category (only having the V Okt Rev), but Moskva will be a special ship soon.  Might pass and wait for the next unless one of these ships really stand out.

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50 minutes ago, RainbowFartingUnicorn said:

$90 worth of self-hatred

Whut?

1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I can't seem to save my win rate in this ship,

I'm by no means in your rarefied stratum of play, but I've had some godawful losses recently including an almost guaranteed win that was thrown away in the most gallingly stupid fashion imaginable. If your ship doesn't have carry potential, you're going to get those battles.

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1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Whut?

I'm by no means in your rarefied stratum of play, but I've had some godawful losses recently including an almost guaranteed win that was thrown away in the most gallingly stupid fashion imaginable. If your ship doesn't have carry potential, you're going to get those battles.

Yeah, my 2.2k loss was caused by a Baltimore that was literally hiding behind our carrier and who couldn't be bothered to pursue their last, burning battleship.

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Whut?

Oh I had just sworn off buying stuff in WOWS and don't really want to go back on my promise to myself, but both Pyotr Bagration and Ochakov look to have OP potential that I might regret not getting later.

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8 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Yeah, my 2.2k loss was caused by a Baltimore that was literally hiding behind our carrier and who couldn't be bothered to pursue their last, burning battleship.

Oh sweet Jesus, bust that person back down to the Erie for a year.

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3 hours ago, alexf24 said:

I will wait for LWM and CCs comments, but from reading their specs I wonder.

I have Donskoi, why would I want Bagration?

I have Chapayev, Lazo, and Shchors. Why would I want Ochakov?

Seems to me all those already do the same job.

Ochakov reminds me of a poor man's Russian Bayard. It even looks like one. Differences other than consumables being 4X2 152MM for RU and 4X3 152MM for FR. It's "ok". Not great but not bad. Bayard is a lot better (IMO). 

Pyotr Bagration feels very strong to me. I would take it over Donskoi any day. Seems quite tough for an RU Cruiser. Still has the typical monstrous citadel but I seem to be able to angle in this unlike the rest of the CL's. It is pretty decent and the guns hit really hard. I get poor results from Donskoi but this thing shreds stuff. The AP especially is great.

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I'm considering these, as it looks to not be a repeat of the Royal Navy heavy cruiser premiums. London was ok, but best price (free), but Cheshire looked to be a dumpster fire.  

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1 minute ago, Nolo_00 said:

I'm considering these, as it looks to not be a repeat of the Royal Navy heavy cruiser premiums. London was ok, but best price (free), but Cheshire looked to be a dumpster fire.  

Cheshire isn't just a dumpster fire, she's the dumpster fire that Puerto Rico pooped in.
I hate Cheshire so much.

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Cheshire isn't just a dumpster fire, she's the dumpster fire that Puerto Rico pooped in.
I hate Cheshire so much.

And now I have iced tea coming out my nose. Thanks for that.

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Was looking at Ochakov in fitting tool and comparing her to Chapayev because both are Radar Cruisers.  The builds for both are identical for this comparison, just simple 10pt Stealth Builds with DE in tier 3 traits.  I was watching a conversation ingame about Ochakov and apparently there's already some good misinformation about her, calling her a Tier VIII Smolensk.  She's anything but that, her gunnery is traditional RU 152mm style.

 

Anyways...

HP:  Ochakov has a lot less HP, 30.2k vs Chappy's 37k.  Cleveland is 36.9k HP.

 

Maneuverability:  Ochakov is a bit better in all 3 categories in speed, rudder shift, turning circle radius than Chapayev.

 

Concealment:  In Full Stealth Build, Ochakov is extremely stealthy at 9km surface detection.  Chapayev is 10.4km.  Atago & Cleveland have great concealment in a similar build and they're "only" 9.3km.

 

Torpedoes:  Chapayev has faster (65kts), harder hitting (17.9k dmg), but fewer (2x3), shorter range (4km), faster reloading (74 seconds) torps.  Ochakov has slower (56kts), weaker (15.1k dmg), but more (2x5), slower reloading (131 seconds) torpedoes.

 

Guns & Shells:  The HE & AP shells are identical between Chappy and Ochakov.  Even shell flight times, trajectory, etc. are the same.  No special AP bounce angles, no special HE Pen, nothing.  The guns start differing though.

Range:  Chapayev has a lot better range at 17.33km.  Ochakov is average at 15.6km.  Neither of these two RU CLs can slot Spotting Aircraft, so Chapayev's longer max range can more easily make use of the fantastic shell flight characteristics of the RU 152mm.  Ochakov has a shorter cap.  Like Baltimore, Cleveland, Mogami, Ochakov has to creep up a bit closer which may be a bit scary in Tier IX-X games, meanwhile Chapayev can fire off at 17.33km.  Hell, even Tier VII Schors has 16.7km range as well as Spotting Aircraft access.

Rifle Count & Reload:  Ochakov has 152mm 4x2 guns at 6.1 seconds reload.  Chapayev has a larger count at 152mm 4x3 at 8 seconds reload.

Turret Traverse:  Ochakov has fast traverse time of 13.8 seconds vs 25 seconds of Chapayev.  This shouldn't be a problem for Chapayev because she's often standing off anyways.

 

Consumables:

Chapayev:  DCP / Hydro or Defensive Fire / Radar

Ochakov:  Just like a USN CL... DCP / Defensive Fire / Hydro / Radar

The values of their consumables are identical except Radar.

Chapayev Radar:  12km range, 3 charges, 120 seconds reload, 20 seconds active time.

Ochakov Radar:  9.9km range, 3 charges, 120 seconds reload, 20 seconds active time.

 

Both Chapayev and Ochakov can Stealth Radar.  I refer again to the Stealth Build concealment ranges, 9km for Ochakov and 10.4km for Chapayev.  If you're a DD and spot Ochakov, you're screwed, you're already 0.9km into her Radar range.  If you're a DD and spot a Chapayev, you're screwed even more, because you're 1.6km into her Radar range.

But what helps Ochakov in such encounters against a DD is again, her fast turret traverse time.  She can more quickly turn her turrets to a target faster than Chapayev can. 13.8 seconds vs 25 seconds.  Made even faster if turning the ship as well to speed things up.  Ochakov has fewer guns than Chapayev, though, you're "only" eating 8 shells per salvo vs 12 from Chapayev.  Then again, taking RPF can let the player swing guns way ahead of time in anticipation of such encounters.

 

Armor & Citadel Protection:  I don't have Ochakov so I don't know her protection scheme stacks up.  Chapayev?  If there's one thing Chapayev can't do is take a hit.  She's one of those Cruisers where it's real easy to Dev Strike her.

 

Lastly, an Artillery Chart with Ochakov representing the RU 152mm gun, with Mogami-155mm, Bayard, Cleveland.

ZAqCTUs.jpg

The RU 152mm has fantastic shell flight characteristics, Ochakov continues that tradition.  However, her mediocre max range of 15.6km holds back what the guns can really do.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

calling her a Tier VIII Smolensk

She is literally the same cruiser hull which is why she gets called a tier VIII Smolensk.  It's like calling the original Ashitaka a tier VII Amagi.  It's factually accurate, though the false implication could be drawn that the two are thus identical in performance.  There's a lot of differences between the ships -- like, short of their hull-form looks and (almost) shared agility, everything else is different between Smolensk and Ochakov.   

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4 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

She is literally the same cruiser hull which is why she gets called a tier VIII Smolensk.  It's like calling the original Ashitaka a tier VII Amagi.  It's factually accurate, though the false implication could be drawn that the two are thus identical in performance.  There's a lot of differences between the ships -- like, short of their hull-form looks and (almost) shared agility, everything else is different between Smolensk and Ochakov.   

The problem with people calling her a "Tier VIII Smolensk" is it implies Smolensk's 130mm 4x4 madness.  She's anything but that.  I wonder if someone has bought Ochakov based on being called a lower tier Smolensk.  Then finding out she's nothing at all like that in the one thing that really defines her:  The guns.

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Good material everyone.

I since watched Flamu's videos on both. I might go for Bagration.

I will skip Ochakov as I already have Chapayev, Bayard, Irian, Kutuzov, and Cleveland, all of them better ships.

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I went and bought Bagration and have been fooling around with her.  Play her in different ways.  The usual "Russian Medium or Long Range Standoff" or try to be cute and be like a High Tier German CA and try to knife fight and use torpedoes.  The protection scheme is not good for close ranged work where even a BB can pick out specific spots and nail you.

TLDR:  You're a Russian Cruiser not named Moskva nor Kronshtadt, so that means your protection is suspect at best.

Bagration's Citadel.  Should be no surprise to anyone that's played RU Cruisers before :Smile_trollface:  You get caught on the sides, you're going to pay dearly, like every other RU Cruiser.

bM7xDq8.jpg

7lfpFCt.jpg

 

Armor View, so you can see how she rides in the water.

M0kpGLq.jpg

fzXTGM9.jpg

Bagration has a 152mm armor belt at the waterline, 25mm above that, 25mm extremities, and a 40mm icebreaker bow on the lower portion of the bow.

 

The icebreaker bow can protect your Citadel in a short ranged fight if you're angled right.  The problem is Bagration is coated in easily Overmatched armor every where else.

- The icebreaker seems nice but it's not tall enough to really protect you, not like Moskva's notoriously high icebreaker below.

Spoiler

 

H05N0S1.jpg

Now **THAT** is a highly protective icebreaker bow.

 

The icebreaker if angled right, will protect the forward part of the Citadel.  It's just the icebreaker on Bagration will not save the rest of the hull as all kinds of 25mm armor is there to be Overmatched by 380mm+ AP.  A Battleship may not Citadel Bagration when angled, but the BB can aim everywhere else, and Overmatch her big time.

 

Do not try to "tank" this thing with BBs around, she isn't Moskva nor Kronshtadt.  You don't have that armor level.  If you play at closer ranges, then some BBs may be able to pick out those tender 25mm sections and hammer you.  The only thing you can hope for in mitigating damage is to not get hit at range, or angle and pray the shells land on the 152mm armor belt.  Because if the BB shells land anywhere else, you're getting Overmatched.  The 27mm deck armor will save you from 420mm and smaller AP but 430mm+ will Overmatch and crash right through.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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