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Tyberius_D

Fire Prevention, is it actually that good?

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I want to see a discussion on Fire Prevention and if it's actually that good. I know most players across the skill levels recommend this for BBs, but after a few test runs with it I really see the effects as negligible.

The -10% risk of catching fire seems to be effective against large shells, but isn't strong enough to counter demo expert on the low caliber flamethrower ships. The part that leaves me wondering is the various things I have heard about the 3 max fires. Alone, this seems worthless, as anytime I have 3 or 4 fires I pop DC as I am losing almost 1% of health per tick. However, what I had heard is that it reworks your ship structure to make you achieve damage saturtation quicker (i'm not sure if I should trust that.)

1) Can someone clear a bit of this up for me on any part I may have wrong (I'm betting the 3 max fires has some value I'm not seeing.)

2) Can you share if you think the skill it good, and in what situations.

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The -10% doesn’t really give a whole lot of benefit (for example, at t10 once you take into account all the other fire buffing and reducing skills will only reduce it by a percent total, maybe two for really high fire chance shells). The big thing that FP gives is the combined superstructure fires. Since most of the typical HE spammers will usually be aiming for your superstructure since they can pen it, combining those two fires into one cuts the number of fires they can set on you in half (assuming shells are only hitting the middle of your ship in this situation).

Once that single fire is set, they can still get pen damage until the superstructure saturated but they’re only going to get that one fire and will have to aim elsewhere for more. And with some HE spamming cruisers opting to drop IFHE for DE after the IFHE changes for more fires (not that I do this or would personally recommend doing it), looking elsewhere on your ship for additional fires means shooting at armor they can’t pen at all, and therefore an even further reduction to the damage they can do to you. Plus superstructure/center mass is a much larger target than your bow or stern, so you’re naturally going to have more shells hitting there with each one having a chance to set a second fire if you don’t have FP.

Even if the ship shooting at you can pen your bow and stern plating, most players are going to start by aiming center mass at you so reducing the number of fires they can set there is still helpful.

 

Edit: Damage saturation is a completely separate mechanic and using FP doesn’t affect it at all. Or, well, it kind of does indirectly through combining the fires, so enemy ships are forced to do more pen damage to your superstructure to cause the same amount of damage, which causes your superstructure to reach the saturation point quicker.

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07
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29 minutes ago, Tyberius_D said:

I want to see a discussion on Fire Prevention and if it's actually that good. I know most players across the skill levels recommend this for BBs, but after a few test runs with it I really see the effects as negligible.

The -10% risk of catching fire seems to be effective against large shells, but isn't strong enough to counter demo expert on the low caliber flamethrower ships. The part that leaves me wondering is the various things I have heard about the 3 max fires. Alone, this seems worthless, as anytime I have 3 or 4 fires I pop DC as I am losing almost 1% of health per tick. However, what I had heard is that it reworks your ship structure to make you achieve damage saturtation quicker (i'm not sure if I should trust that.)

1) Can someone clear a bit of this up for me on any part I may have wrong (I'm betting the 3 max fires has some value I'm not seeing.)

2) Can you share if you think the skill it good, and in what situations.

It is a critical skill for BBs and supercruisers.

The 10% reduction is minor and not the main benefit.

You misunderstand how the reduction in fires works.  It doesn't just cap the number of fires at 3 instead of 4.  That would be nigh useless.

What it does is combine the two superstructure fire locations into a single fire location.  In practice most players aim at center mass, and the superstructure because it is easier to hit, so this, in practice, usually is a reduction of two fires down to one fire, and that is huge as it very significantly lightens the load on the damage control consumable.  Angled in you'll almost never have a stern fire, angles away you'll rarely have a bow fire.  So in most cases it changes your fire total from a functional max of 3 to a functional max of 2, and very frequently from 2 down to 1 as players just shoot the superstructure.

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3 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

It is a critical skill for BBs and supercruisers.

The 10% reduction is minor and not the main benefit.

You misunderstand how the reduction in fires works.  It doesn't just cap the number of fires at 3 instead of 4.  That would be nigh useless.

What it does is combine the two superstructure fire locations into a single fire location.  In practice most players aim at center mass, and the superstructure because it is easier to hit, so this, in practice, usually is a reduction of two fires down to one fire, and that is huge as it very significantly lightens the load on the damage control consumable.  Angled in you'll almost never have a stern fire, angles away you'll rarely have a bow fire.  So in most cases it changes your fire total from a functional max of 3 to a functional max of 2, and very frequently from 2 down to 1 as players just shoot the superstructure.

Sounds like my base understanding was right on the money.

I personally don't know any folks who are running flamethrowers that don't purpusefully coat every part of the ship. This seems like an anti rookie perk at best.

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It’s very helpful, maybe you won’t notice the 10% reduction but it helps. But I agree the bigger benefit is the consolidation of super structure locations. I don’t play bb often but I do run it on my Stalingrad and other super cruisers and I can say it has saved my ship many times, at least once in CB Sunday night. Down to 1000 hp when I got my heal off and with a Smolensk spamming me nearly non stop once I was spotted I surely would have been a goner if not for FP. Since I managed to survive I picked off 2 other ships and we ended up winning. This isn’t a testament to me but it illustrates the benefit it can bring. You can’t influence an outcome very well if you have been destroyed 

Edited by ditka_Fatdog

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9 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

What it does is combine the two superstructure fire locations into a single fire location. 

Oooh that makes more sense.  I always thought the minus 1 fire is a random location.  So if there are 3 fires already set (anywhere), the 4th location that is missing cannot happen

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1 minute ago, Tyberius_D said:

Sounds like my base understanding was right on the money.

I personally don't know any folks who are running flamethrowers that don't purpusefully coat every part of the ship. This seems like an anti rookie perk at best.

It isn't easy to do what you say they all do.  Bows and sterns are harder to hit because of the shape of ships.  Sure, if it is parked, but bow in getting the stern is very hard because the superstructure is covering it.

Even then, the skill still works as described against about 90% of the player base.

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4 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Angled in you'll almost never have a stern fire, angles away you'll rarely have a bow fire.  So in most cases it changes your fire total from a functional max of 3 to a functional max of 2, and very frequently from 2 down to 1 as players just shoot the superstructure.

Somewhat dependent on the ship doing the shooting, and the conditions. If a railgun ship (ex: Moskva) is doing the shooting at short to medium range, then yeah, the number of deck strikes will be small. On the other hand, if the shooter is using a floaty-shell ship (ex: Cleveland, Smolensk) at medium to longer ranges, he can just walk the shells along the length of the hull and spray down the decks like a garden hose.

Even so, three fires is better than four.

And bow-in and stern-in make even the floaty-shell guys work harder, which buys you time.

It’s a staple skill of any survival build.

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4 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Somewhat dependent on the ship doing the shooting, and the conditions. If a railgun ship (ex: Moskva) is doing the shooting at short to medium range, then yeah, the number of deck strikes will be small. On the other hand, if the shooter is using a floaty-shell ship (ex: Cleveland, Smolensk) at medium to longer ranges, he can just walk the shells along the length of the hull and spray down the decks like a garden hose.

Even so, three fires is better than four.

And bow-in and stern-in make even the floaty-shell guys work harder, which buys you time.

It’s a staple skill of any survival build.

I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've had 3 fires on a ship that has a captain with Fire Prevention.  The cases people keep bringing up as counter arguments in this thread are edge cases that won't reflect the actual gameplay the skill has in 98-99% of battles.

Sure, if someone, not you, MannyD_of_The_Sea, to be clear, wants to reject the skill based on that 1-2% they are free to do so, but they'd better not come here whining about fires and then claiming that, because of that 1-2%, Fire Prevention does nothing so they don't use it.

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Take out the Bismark in a new captain....  Then do it with one with that perk :)

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2 hours ago, Tyberius_D said:

Sounds like my base understanding was right on the money.

I personally don't know any folks who are running flamethrowers that don't purpusefully coat every part of the ship. This seems like an anti rookie perk at best.

Not really . It helps a lot on German and French BBs . However it is 4 points so you have to give up something but with the German BBs you don' t really need IFHE anymore so FP is pretty good instead .

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2 hours ago, Helstrem said:

I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've had 3 fires on a ship that has a captain with Fire Prevention.  The cases people keep bringing up as counter arguments in this thread are edge cases that won't reflect the actual gameplay the skill has in 98-99% of battles.

Sure, if someone, not you, MannyD_of_The_Sea, to be clear, wants to reject the skill based on that 1-2% they are free to do so, but they'd better not come here whining about fires and then claiming that, because of that 1-2%, Fire Prevention does nothing so they don't use it.

You’re right. It might be more than the 1-2% you’re estimating for the three fire case, but there’s no doubt that the fusing of the two superstructure fire zones into one that occurs from the skill, is of of significant benefit by halving the fire hazard of the most fire-susceptible part of a ship.

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FP seems really effective on my Montana and Stalingrad. Stali definetly gets a reduction in fire chance as I'm running with FP in CB for more AA daka, and Monty seems to get less fires in randoms. Add the UU to the Monty and I print more dreadnoughts than Conq

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Don't use FP. I need my Witherer and Arsonist flags, I never have too many of them

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Keep in mind that this is a -reduction- skill, not an -immunity- skill.  Taking FP just reduces the number of fires your ship can have at one time and slightly increase the time it will take for the enemy to start a fire on you.  If you are looking for substantial reductions or outright immunity to fires from this skill, you likely won't think it is working.

 

I've found it a very necessary skill on Battleships and Superheavy Cruisers.  Otherwise, you will burn down quite a bit faster.  If you need those points elsewhere, then you'd best invest in getting your Damage Control recycle time down as far as you can, because that will be the only way you'll reduce those fires without it (or with the flags that also reduce fire duration).

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3 hours ago, Helstrem said:

It is a critical skill for BBs and supercruisers.

The 10% reduction is minor and not the main benefit.

You misunderstand how the reduction in fires works.  It doesn't just cap the number of fires at 3 instead of 4.  That would be nigh useless.

What it does is combine the two superstructure fire locations into a single fire location.  In practice most players aim at center mass, and the superstructure because it is easier to hit, so this, in practice, usually is a reduction of two fires down to one fire, and that is huge as it very significantly lightens the load on the damage control consumable.  Angled in you'll almost never have a stern fire, angles away you'll rarely have a bow fire.  So in most cases it changes your fire total from a functional max of 3 to a functional max of 2, and very frequently from 2 down to 1 as players just shoot the superstructure.

Well stated. I take it before concealment on BB, and go back and forth as to whether it is a net benefit in the CV meta vs building some other skill(s). I generally make this judgement based on tier, and the nature of the ship. 

Edited by Pugilistic

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Helstrem more or less nailed it.  If i am in a fire breathing ship and see a BB without FP, they are my number one target.   Super easy to farm.  Super easy to take out of the fight.  Bonus points if they put out single fires constantly.  Might as well have a giant kick me sign on your back. 

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The main reason why your taking is to limit your fire slots available to 3, if you think having two fires running is bad see how fast your hp bar melts with 4

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When you are running a low fire chance daka daka ship where the quantity starts the fires, you can really tell when somebody has FP from the extra shots it takes to get things going.

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5 hours ago, MichiganEagle said:

Good thread is good. Nice work, people.

I was hoping for more rebuttals, this is pretty one sided.

3 hours ago, clammboy said:

Not really . It helps a lot on German and French BBs . However it is 4 points so you have to give up something but with the German BBs you don' t really need IFHE anymore so FP is pretty good instead .

What do you think of it on American BBs

2 hours ago, Pugilistic said:

Well stated. I take it before concealment on BB, and go back and forth as to whether it is a net benefit in the CV meta vs building some other skill(s). I generally make this judgement based on tier, and the nature of the ship. 

I find concealment to be way more useful than FP, and I also would rather take basics of survivability over it.

1 hour ago, Muki41 said:

The main reason why your taking is to limit your fire slots available to 3, if you think having two fires running is bad see how fast your hp bar melts with 4

2 hurts but is manageable with DC. 3+ is where it gets nasty. On that note, if you are in a position to where you have 4 fire, you are in the deepest of ****

1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

When you are running a low fire chance daka daka ship where the quantity starts the fires, you can really tell when somebody has FP from the extra shots it takes to get things going.

Strange, I have seen the exact opposite. FP really seems to nerf ships like conquerer and thunderer, however the flamethrowers just keep you alight with shear volume of fire.

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@Tyberius_D The best answers to what you were looking for are the people talking about combining the superstructure into a single fire target combined with the practical difficulty in setting a fire in the stern zone of a bow tanking ship. It takes floaty shells to get the second fire in those circumstances, and incredible good luck to get the third. If they don't have fire prevention, 2-3 fires become much easier to set.

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4 hours ago, Tyberius_D said:

I was hoping for more rebuttals, this is pretty one sided.

Not everything has two, or more, valid sides.  Sometimes there is simply correct and incorrect.  This is one of those times.

That isn't to say there aren't reasons to skip it because your build needs more points spent elsewhere, secondary skills or such, just that the skill is effective at reducing fire damage taken.

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