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Elo_J_Fudpucker

Why We Need Skill Based Match Making

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This battle was a mess....  myself and 2 BB spawn alone on the west side. Both BB bugger off to the east. The CV started to cover A cap so I moved in, as it looked clear... and was... until the akizuki showed up.. he out gunned me and I had to vacate.. ran away .. managed to get a few hits in but was alone against 6 ships.. so I died...  now , I know I didn't have a great game, I allowed myself to get isolated, and paid for it.... but at the end of the battle... *I* was the one on top of the score sheet... huh?!?  I had a really crap battle by my own standards, and I was numero uno?!?!?

Look at the badges for ranked on each team and compare.  When looking at the profiles of each capt, it is plain that one group is going to maul the other.

Let the unskilled play with each other.

It really ruins the experience for the advanced capt to have to suffer the having to go to battle with capts that do not have enough training and experience.

NeedBetterMM.png

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Amagi 600 battles
Massachussetts 167 battles
Bismarck 506 battles
Okran 205 battles

EDIT  - 2300 was the lowest number of battles on the other team.

 

Edited by Elo_J_Fudpucker
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One thing which should be looked at is divisions. Match up divisions against divisions of similar quality stats wise. Divisions contribute to the rampant stomps just as much as people with 200 games playing at T10.

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Just now, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

Amagi 600 battles
Massachussetts 167 battles
Bismarck 506 battles
Okran 205 battles



 

Yes, there is a lot of this going on lately. It dilutes the game even further.

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Not enough players for skill based MM. Oueue times will be long especially non prime time. Overwatch has skilled based mm and a much larger player pool and still have long queue times

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At this point I almost want them to give you what you want just for like a week JUST to hear the epic levels of whining that would follow.  The salt would flood these forums in waves and the tears of the fallen would drown us all.  It would be glorious.

Thankfully though that'll never happen because Wargaming has better sense than that.  For one you'd have issues with things like divisions ((How do you place a 75% unicum,  his first div mate whose a decent 55%,  and their slug buddy whose 40%?)) and matchmaking duration but for another you'd have dissatisfaction among customers.  As it stands RNG is the main determining factor,  you have just as much a chance to be mashing the potatoes as you do for the potatoes to be on your team.  Take that away and you suddenly have a bunch of percentages that don't mean what they appear to mean.  You'll have people who excelled because they fed off of the lower half in matches with people who can stomp on them with their eyes closed and you'll have guys who have low win percentages but are great players stomping all over the actual 35%ers.  You'd have a whole lot of unhappy people who'd suddenly be in losing streaks because of a ton of different factors and ultimately the game would suffer for it.

Of course I could be completely wrong here and everything could turn up sunshine and roses but...that's not been my experience in the past.

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will never happen, you can say why all you like...    keep beating that horse...

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19 minutes ago, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

This battle was a mess....  myself and 2 BB spawn alone on the west side. Both BB bugger off to the east. The CV started to cover A cap so I moved in, as it looked clear... and was... until the akizuki showed up.. he out gunned me and I had to vacate.. ran away .. managed to get a few hits in but was alone against 6 ships.. so I died...  now , I know I didn't have a great game, I allowed myself to get isolated, and paid for it.... but at the end of the battle... *I* was the one on top of the score sheet... huh?!?  I had a really crap battle by my own standards, and I was numero uno?!?!?

Look at the badges for ranked on each team and compare.  When looking at the profiles of each capt, it is plain that one group is going to maul the other.

Let the unskilled play with each other.

It really ruins the experience for the advanced capt to have to suffer the having to go to battle with capts that do not have enough training and experience.

NeedBetterMM.png

So what group would you be in, the skilled or unskilled?

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17 minutes ago, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

Look at the badges for ranked on each team and compare.  When looking at the profiles of each capt, it is plain that one group is going to maul the other.

I'm not saying that all arguments for skill-based MM are poor, but this one really is. First off, it's ranked Sprint. It's not nearly as hard to run solo as regular ranked, especially considering that it's 12v12 right now. Second, being ranked sprint, you get divs, which means you can have people get carried all the way to rank 1 quite easily. Plus, whenever you use a ranked game mode as your skill meter, you assume that players play until they can't progress any more, which simply isn't true (Several ranked seasons I've gotten bored and stopped after 5-10 games instead of grinding through to the end).

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16 minutes ago, Palladia said:

At this point I almost want them to give you what you want just for like a week JUST to hear the epic levels of whining that would follow.  The salt would flood these forums in waves and the tears of the fallen would drown us all.  It would be glorious.

Thankfully though that'll never happen because Wargaming has better sense than that.  For one you'd have issues with things like divisions ((How do you place a 75% unicum,  his first div mate whose a decent 55%,  and their slug buddy whose 40%?)) and matchmaking duration but for another you'd have dissatisfaction among customers.  As it stands RNG is the main determining factor,  you have just as much a chance to be mashing the potatoes as you do for the potatoes to be on your team.  Take that away and you suddenly have a bunch of percentages that don't mean what they appear to mean.  You'll have people who excelled because they fed off of the lower half in matches with people who can stomp on them with their eyes closed and you'll have guys who have low win percentages but are great players stomping all over the actual 35%ers.  You'd have a whole lot of unhappy people who'd suddenly be in losing streaks because of a ton of different factors and ultimately the game would suffer for it.

Of course I could be completely wrong here and everything could turn up sunshine and roses but...that's not been my experience in the past.

This needs to be pasted in response every time someone asks for the MM the OP wants.

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   ..of course if there were any sort of skill based system of advancing in the game, this would not be so much of an issue

You can.. post whatever.. my opinion is that this lack of skill detracts from the game. It is what it is.. argue all you want.  

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Skill based MM would mean one of two things.

Option A: Bracketing. You get a computed ELO score based on past performance and never see people too far away from your score. So if you're competent then you never see awful players on your side... or on the enemies. Bads will get matches only against bads which will probably result in distorted games, likely this would result in a bunch of changes to ships over time. The other big thing is that queue times would go up significantly, probably be several times especially at the highest levels of play. Likely at off-hours the MM would have to relax the spread so you would still get unbalanced matches during those times.

Option B: No bracketing, but teams skill-balanced. The downside here is that the more skilled you are the more the MM will make your team crappy to compensate for your skill. Also likely it would require relaxing the rules on class/tier mirroring in order to let the MM generate balanced teams. And likely you'd still end up with longer queue times anyways.

WG doesn't want longer queue times at all costs, so neither of these will ever happen.

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The current gameplay is in such a poor state that a skill based MM is not going to help. You cannot balance something that is not there. 

 

The only way to improve the overall gameplay is if WG change their balance policies and stop balancing the game around bad players. WG balance policies are pushing a lot of good players out of the game, unless you change this the gameplay is only going to get worse, this is why most battles are blowouts. 

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36 minutes ago, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

Let the unskilled play with each other.


I don't think that's the solution wouldn't it be better to swap out 5 of there players for five of yours ? The unskilled players still gets to play but there is a fair amount on each team .

There's always going to be less skilled players there's always going to be someone to blame it on no matter how you cull the field . It's really up to WG to come up with fairer teams for every body .

I have no clue what that may be but it wont be easy .

 

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I had 4 battles in a row last night in which the MM put teams together with a double digit win rate difference between the teams, all ending with a points win with 4 or more ships remaining on the losing team.  MMM shows practically all 50 percent WR and above on one side and low 40's on the other.  This is not going to be a pretty game most of the time and could EASILY be more fairly balanced without increasing queue times at all.

I get people hate hearing this and I know WG seems completely against anything more than completley random MM, but it's sad when it's pretty easy to see the improvements that could easily be made to make games better, but aren't.  

I really think if they hid all stats, more people would be more ok with them tinkering.  As it stands, people go through a lot to get high stats and therefore will be against anything that would give them more of a challenge (ie rerolls and unicum divs).

I think bracketing similar to ranked could work....change randoms to have ranks that go up based on wins or whatever, and match people that way.  Those who care about their unicum status could then flaunt their rank instead of the win rate (as win rate would have to be related to a rank or bracket....so 55 percent wr in bracket 10 would be more impressive than 60 percent in bracket 5 or whatever).  Divs matched to the highest ranked player.  Will never happen though.

Edited by Old_Baldy_One
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The best way to fix matchmaking at the moment since skill based isn't going to happen according to WG is to reduce the number of ships per battle and place limits on the number of CV to 1 per battle and then 2 BB per battle and the rest is filled with destroyers and cruisers. This is just an idea it could probably be better but this is what I could think of at this moment.

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So the OP suffers, dies, and yet winds up Numero Uno.  

Maybe he should have more unskilled players on his teams...

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Few things...

  • From the pic shown, no one on the red team scored above 1 kill... Which indicates, this match was closer the the OP narrative suggests.
  • Surprise its same tier MM, its not even + or - 1MM.
    • So if you can complain about MM even if +2MM or same tier MM... The fact that you still lost, its some how  MM fault now.
  • I'll repeat this over again here and all threads on the subject, "Rank doesn't make you a better player... Rank Sprint doesn't make you a better player, to suggest such absurd proposition is the fault of distorted thinking."
  • SBMM is the downfall of many game titles... Fortnite adapted it, that is why #ripfortnite was trending 3 weeks ago... SBMM, doesn't work and developers with industry level communication on the topic know that already...

That is why based on what I noted above... SBMM and Rank position are irrelevant.

 

Edited by Navalpride33

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1 hour ago, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

2300 was the lowest number of battles on the other team.

I have almost  that , or maybe a little more in Yubari alone....lol

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1 hour ago, zippychippy said:

Not enough players for skill based MM. Oueue times will be long especially non prime time. Overwatch has skilled based mm and a much larger player pool and still have long queue times

This, but skill balancing after the 24 players are chosen would work. However, that would not make results like the OP experienced impossible.

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1 hour ago, zippychippy said:

Not enough players for skill based MM. Oueue times will be long especially non prime time. Overwatch has skilled based mm and a much larger player pool and still have long queue times

While I tend to agree that it "could" extend queue times, if you just take the 24 players selected by MM and swap a few from one side to the other it could have attempted to level the "skill curve" between the teams without a longer queue.  The MM clearly has to assign players to each side with some sort of logic right?

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1 hour ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

One thing which should be looked at is divisions. Match up divisions against divisions of similar quality stats wise. Divisions contribute to the rampant stomps just as much as people with 200 games playing at T10.

The only problem I have with divisions that should be looked at is all three players bringing the same ship.  You can't bring 3 CV's in a division but divisions that bring 3 Moskva's/Stalingrad's or 3 Smolensk's, or 3 Kremlin's, 3 Mino's, 3 Alaska's etc.  I mentioned mostly Russian ships only because they seem to be the most popular with these type of divisions.  We all know the ships that we consider to be very good ships, take that and multiply it by 3.

You want to experience the worst gaming experience.  Go up against a division like those.

I'm not upset that they decided to division or that played very well and are good players.  However, even an experienced player having to deal with that will be a massive headache and not very fun.  Especially when you're in a DD and they are stacked up on radar.

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