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This is World of Warships. Not World of Airplanes.  

Am I playing as a pilot, or a boat captain?  Specifically all spotting ability needs to be removed from airplanes, including attack planes and torpedo bombers. Everything. Zero spotting ability.  Allow me to explain: 

I just played a tier 6 match with two carriers working together.  The first located and perma spotted the destroyers sitting BEHIND friendly AA cruisers(no issue here right).  The second came in with rockets and killed the destroyers.  If two carriers are banned from divisions, they should currently be banned from having 2 in a match together. Their ability to spot and work together with focus fire is unparalleled.  

However, this highlights the most important balance issue with CV.  They can spot with planes.  The ship itself is a tall ship, and should have super buffed spotting ability.  Give the CV itself the ability to see concealed destroyers 8km away, but the planes need to have ZERO ability to spot at all.  This would balance the game play to put it on par with a battleship.  

 


To draw a parallel: A Montana can shoot anywhere on the map.  I devastating strike derpy players in the first 2 minutes of matches, easy. Despite having similar ability to strike anywhere on the map, The Montana Cannot Spot 25km Away.

So let's take a step back.  Saying the planes shouldn't be able to spot anything would be MUCH more balanced than the current iteration of carriers, but it's not perfect. So what would be?  Here's some ideas: 

1)  Create "no spotting" zones within (about) 2km of all islands, where destroyers cannot be spotted by carriers whatsoever.  

2) Penalize missed drops.  If the Hakurya wants to drop some of his torpedos on an island to save planes, those planes should instantly explode when neither of their torpedos hit an enemy target.  I hate that I have to game the system and drop bombers to stay relevant as a CV driver. It works around AA in a cheating way. 

 

~

I love playing carrier.  

Recently regrinding the IJN destroyer line for research bureau, and it has become extremely apparent how big of a balance issue carriers have right now.  Destroyers (ESPECIALLY AT THE LOWER TIERS) are irrelevant against Good carrier players.  

Yes, I can still use my destroyer in a relevant way occasionally, but that is ONLY against carrier players that have no idea how to play.  As it stands, the carrier is a radar boat with 40km radar.   12km radar itself should be removed from the game, so tell me, how balanced do you think 40km radar is??

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I am a DD main. I dislike CVs intensely. So much so I do not own any at any tier.

Yet, I understand their play.

My only complaint, is that WG should make a fast rule of one CV per side, not two or three. After that, let them be as they are now.

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4 hours ago, Kingdom_of_Canada said:

2) Penalize missed drops.  If the Hakurya wants to drop some of his torpedos on an island to save planes, those planes should instantly explode when neither of their torpedos hit an enemy target.  I hate that I have to game the system and drop bombers to stay relevant as a CV driver. 

I’m sure that, to be even, you’d be ok with having the Montana’s turrets explode if some of her unlimited shells miss or hit a mountain...

Edited by gbgentry
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Nerfing CV spotting has a determinantal effect on play as a whole, in allowing Destroyers way too much free reign and creates a power gap between radar cruiser players though.

It would mean that CVs would HAVE TO focus destroyers every game, no matter what.

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3 hours ago, Kingdom_of_Canada said:

This is World of Warships. Not World of Airplanes.  

Am I playing as a pilot, or a boat captain?  Specifically all spotting ability needs to be removed from airplanes, including attack planes and torpedo bombers. Everything. Zero spotting ability.  Allow me to explain: 

I just played a tier 6 match with two carriers working together.  The first located and perma spotted the destroyers sitting BEHIND friendly AA cruisers(no issue here right).  The second came in with rockets and killed the destroyers.  If two carriers are banned from divisions, they should currently be banned from having 2 in a match together. Their ability to spot and work together with focus fire is unparalleled.  

However, this highlights the most important balance issue with CV.  They can spot with planes.  The ship itself is a tall ship, and should have super buffed spotting ability.  Give the CV itself the ability to see concealed destroyers 8km away, but the planes need to have ZERO ability to spot at all.  This would balance the game play to put it on par with a battleship.  

 


To draw a parallel: A Montana can shoot anywhere on the map.  I devastating strike derpy players in the first 2 minutes of matches, easy. Despite having similar ability to strike anywhere on the map, The Montana Cannot Spot 25km Away.

So let's take a step back.  Saying the planes shouldn't be able to spot anything would be MUCH more balanced than the current iteration of carriers, but it's not perfect. So what would be?  Here's some ideas: 

1)  Create "no spotting" zones within (about) 2km of all islands, where destroyers cannot be spotted by carriers whatsoever.  

2) Penalize missed drops.  If the Hakurya wants to drop some of his torpedos on an island to save planes, those planes should instantly explode when neither of their torpedos hit an enemy target.  I hate that I have to game the system and drop bombers to stay relevant as a CV driver. It works around AA in a cheating way. 

 

~

I love playing carrier.  

Recently regrinding the IJN destroyer line for research bureau, and it has become extremely apparent how big of a balance issue carriers have right now.  Destroyers (ESPECIALLY AT THE LOWER TIERS) are irrelevant against Good carrier players.  

Yes, I can still use my destroyer in a relevant way occasionally, but that is ONLY against carrier players that have no idea how to play.  As it stands, the carrier is a radar boat with 40km radar.   12km radar itself should be removed from the game, so tell me, how balanced do you think 40km radar is??

chrome_shaIjyxx5K.png

I don't dump planes prior to a strike. That's a testament to a player if they do that they are not confident in either their attack tactics or ability to attack at all.

I just pick my targets carefully and I team spot first to establish coverage.

Spotting is key to team coordination. If you set the tone early, you eventually find isolated targets.

Planes have spotted destroyers and other ships all the time in real world as WW2 had oil burning ships. Easy to see the smoke up there, but what kind of ship means a plane descended from altitude. Then the fun began.

In game, WG has had to find a balance for spotting in general and it's not easy. You might say it's in flux.

You complain about CVs and their spotting abilities and yet a submarine uses acoustic listening to hear the propellers of ships and can close in on the noise.

Subs usually attacked at night or the dawn. Preferably with the sun at their backs. This allowed accurate periscope torpedo firing solutions to be calculated.

Firing on a convoy that does not zig zag is a dream for any sub skipper. But there are also tactics like wolfpack and sneaking in to a harbor to hit large targets.

The spotting you complain about is just the tip of the iceberg. When subs debut, there will be a class that sneaks about silently to get you.

Execution and knowing your tactics well will redefine spotting from here on out. DDs and other ships will at least see bombers coming.

But torps from the deep and you can't know where or when will make a lot of players uncomfortable.

Just like when I drop AP on a Musashi and the player basically had no escort.

What will change for sure eventually, is how Randoms will be played.

Because camping is about to go extinct.

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5 hours ago, Kingdom_of_Canada said:

This is World of Warships. Not World of Airplanes.  

Am I playing as a pilot, or a boat captain?  Specifically all spotting ability needs to be removed from airplanes, including attack planes and torpedo bombers. Everything. Zero spotting ability.  Allow me to explain: 

I just played a tier 6 match with two carriers working together.  The first located and perma spotted the destroyers sitting BEHIND friendly AA cruisers(no issue here right).  The second came in with rockets and killed the destroyers.  If two carriers are banned from divisions, they should currently be banned from having 2 in a match together. Their ability to spot and work together with focus fire is unparalleled.  

However, this highlights the most important balance issue with CV.  They can spot with planes.  The ship itself is a tall ship, and should have super buffed spotting ability.  Give the CV itself the ability to see concealed destroyers 8km away, but the planes need to have ZERO ability to spot at all.  This would balance the game play to put it on par with a battleship.  

 


To draw a parallel: A Montana can shoot anywhere on the map.  I devastating strike derpy players in the first 2 minutes of matches, easy. Despite having similar ability to strike anywhere on the map, The Montana Cannot Spot 25km Away.

So let's take a step back.  Saying the planes shouldn't be able to spot anything would be MUCH more balanced than the current iteration of carriers, but it's not perfect. So what would be?  Here's some ideas: 

1)  Create "no spotting" zones within (about) 2km of all islands, where destroyers cannot be spotted by carriers whatsoever.  

2) Penalize missed drops.  If the Hakurya wants to drop some of his torpedos on an island to save planes, those planes should instantly explode when neither of their torpedos hit an enemy target.  I hate that I have to game the system and drop bombers to stay relevant as a CV driver. It works around AA in a cheating way. 

 

~

I love playing carrier.  

Recently regrinding the IJN destroyer line for research bureau, and it has become extremely apparent how big of a balance issue carriers have right now.  Destroyers (ESPECIALLY AT THE LOWER TIERS) are irrelevant against Good carrier players.  

Yes, I can still use my destroyer in a relevant way occasionally, but that is ONLY against carrier players that have no idea how to play.  As it stands, the carrier is a radar boat with 40km radar.   12km radar itself should be removed from the game, so tell me, how balanced do you think 40km radar is??

chrome_shaIjyxx5K.png

Are you ok with no spotting for say every ship?  Of course not because anti cv threads arw always the same.

Pretend you enjoy and say how easy it is then slam it for being to easy.

Perma spoting by DD is mare more prevalent than planes.

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3 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

Nerfing CV spotting has a determinantal effect on play as a whole, in allowing Destroyers way too much free reign and creates a power gap between radar cruiser players though.

It would mean that CVs would HAVE TO focus destroyers every game, no matter what.

Correct, if CV plane spotting is removed it's free reign for any DD with torpedo ranges that are beyond radar. #make_shima_great_again #make_gearing_great_again

I think some have forgotten the numerous DDs and torpedoes are too OP whine threads here when CVs were rarely played in the RTS days.

Also, in the RTS days a single CV could keep a DD perma spotted with fighters while attacking it. Can't do that now unless multiple CVs are working together.

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As someone who plays both CV and surface ships I completely agree with removing CV plane spotting.  Make it like hurricane spotting so the just show up on the mini map for friendlies when only spotted by planes.  In return they need to put a delay on AA being fully effective when switched from "off" to "on".  

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2 hours ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

Correct, if CV plane spotting is removed it's free reign for any DD with torpedo ranges that are beyond radar. #make_shima_great_again #make_gearing_great_again

I think some have forgotten the numerous DDs and torpedoes are too OP whine threads here when CVs were rarely played in the RTS days.

Also, in the RTS days a single CV could keep a DD perma spotted with fighters while attacking it. Can't do that now unless multiple CVs are working together.

I always refer back to WarGamings CC summit. They showed the CCs a graph of how much each ship type effected the battle. Both Cruisers and Battleships had little effect overall and were greatly outclassed by Destroyers and Carriers.

The power gap between the two has been swinging back and forth with every change to Carriers. I'd also be curious as to how ships more recently introduced have influenced this. I suppose my thought is you have to pick your poison when it comes to which class you want influencing your game.

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No. I honestly don't care if DDs can't figure out how to turn on smoke and turn off AA to avoid detection, I don't want one of the main abilities of CVs to be removed, especially when half the team is constantly begging for intelligence data. Destroying aircraft that miss also makes no sense at all.  Are DDs no longer allowed to blindfire torps without their launchers being crippled? That's frankly a really bad idea.

I will agree that there needs to be only 1 CV per match, though. If for no other reason than it makes the game less fun for everyone, I'd argue including the CV.

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1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

 

I always refer back to WarGamings CC summit. They showed the CCs a graph of how much each ship type effected the battle. Both Cruisers and Battleships had little effect overall and were greatly outclassed by Destroyers and Carriers.

The power gap between the two has been swinging back and forth with every change to Carriers. I'd also be curious as to how ships more recently introduced have influenced this. I suppose my thought is you have to pick your poison when it comes to which class you want influencing your game.

Agree with pick your poison. 

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On 5/6/2020 at 8:56 AM, 1SneakyDevil said:

Correct, if CV plane spotting is removed it's free reign for any DD with torpedo ranges that are beyond radar. #make_shima_great_again #make_gearing_great_again

I think some have forgotten the numerous DDs and torpedoes are too OP whine threads here when CVs were rarely played in the RTS days.

Also, in the RTS days a single CV could keep a DD perma spotted with fighters while attacking it. Can't do that now unless multiple CVs are working together.

You fail to mention, though, that in the RTS days, CVs were just as much playing against each other as they were trying to farm damage against the enemy team. Yes, you could use fighters to perma-spot a DD, but what's stopping the enemy CV from sending their fighter to chase yours off, while dev-striking one of your own DDs with cross torps? Now it's just a flat DPS race while occasionally dropping a fighter if it's convenient.

At least planes can't spot torps anymore

One thing I will say, though, is that people have FINALLY learned the lesson of having overlapping AA fields. It only took a massive rework and tons of people playing CVs to finally get this simple idea down.

Edited by yaluen

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On 5/6/2020 at 7:34 AM, Skuggsja said:

Nerfing CV spotting has a determinantal effect on play as a whole, in allowing Destroyers way too much free reign and creates a power gap between radar cruiser players though.

It would mean that CVs would HAVE TO focus destroyers every game, no matter what.

Well we seem to do just fine without CVs considering how many battles are played without CVs, and how many battles have been played without CVs. Plus the overall mood of the players actually seems more positive when CVs are NOT present.

And my cruisers of choice carry hydro, but lack radar and I do just fine despite your statement claiming there is “power gap between radar cruisers and DDs” when I greatly enjoy the IJN CAs which according to you should be very much crippled by not even having radar. Now to be fair the Smolensk does have a significant power gap between it and the DDs because it lacks radar, but that is because it blinds itself with smoke and has OP reputation that makes it a major target and allows DDs to sneak up right next to the smoke for close to point blank ranged torpedo drops. My IJN ships will spot a DD at minimum of 5.4km, my getting mysteriously spotted can inform me at times that a DD is within my concealment range, and I can manage my hydro to spot torpedoes well in advance. And also the IJN CAs tend to have decent torpedo protection that allows them to better take a torpedo hit if need be. But the point is even without radar there is not a devastating power gap.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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On 5/7/2020 at 11:59 AM, Nomiside said:

What about the idea of CV only giving teamate Minimap info only.

 

43 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Removing spotting would solve so many issues with CV's and allow game strategy to return.  Sadly I doubt it will ever happen.

With the incoming German CV line, assuming they stay All AP and torps, they need to be able to spot to defend themselves against DD"s, as they have no weapons to so themselves.

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1 minute ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

With the incoming German CV line, assuming they stay All AP and torps, they need to be able to spot to defend themselves against DD"s, as they have no weapons to so themselves.

That would be easy.  Planes could spot on the mini-map only within a certain distance from their vessel.  There are many things they could try, but to not even see it as an issue is absurd.  Plane spotting ruins strategic play.  The core of strategy in this game is a ship's ability to drop off detection and to calculate risk/reward based on that detection.

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51 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

That would be easy.  Planes could spot on the mini-map only within a certain distance from their vessel.  There are many things they could try, but to not even see it as an issue is absurd.  Plane spotting ruins strategic play.  The core of strategy in this game is a ship's ability to drop off detection and to calculate risk/reward based on that detection.

I've found plane spotting makes strategic play better. You, and the other team, know what you're sailing into. There's nothing strategic about driving into a cap ignorant of what's about to happen, just to find that you're outnumbered 5 to 1 and get shot full of holes.

And making them unable to spot except with close proximity to the CV, just results in the german CV dying to the DD anyway, as they have no weapons to actually damage a DD that isn't completely stupid, and if the CV's spotting distance is short enough that it can't spot for it's teammates, it will be too short to spot for itself.

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8 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Well we seem to do just fine without CVs considering how many battles are played without CVs, and how many battles have been played without CVs. Plus the overall mood of the players actually seems more positive when CVs are NOT present.

And my cruisers of choice carry hydro, but lack radar and I do just fine despite your statement claiming there is “power gap between radar cruisers and DDs” when I greatly enjoy the IJN CAs which according to you should be very much crippled by not even having radar. Now to be fair the Smolensk does have a significant power gap between it and the DDs because it lacks radar, but that is because it blinds itself with smoke and has OP reputation that makes it a major target and allows DDs to sneak up right next to the smoke for close to point blank ranged torpedo drops. My IJN ships will spot a DD at minimum of 5.4km, my getting mysteriously spotted can inform me at times that a DD is within my concealment range, and I can manage my hydro to spot torpedoes well in advance. And also the IJN CAs tend to have decent torpedo protection that allows them to better take a torpedo hit if need be. But the point is even without radar there is not a devastating power gap.

I dont think you're grasping what I'm saying but alrighty.

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9 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Well we seem to do just fine without CVs considering how many battles are played without CVs, and how many battles have been played without CVs. Plus the overall mood of the players actually seems more positive when CVs are NOT present.

And my cruisers of choice carry hydro, but lack radar and I do just fine despite your statement claiming there is “power gap between radar cruisers and DDs” when I greatly enjoy the IJN CAs which according to you should be very much crippled by not even having radar. Now to be fair the Smolensk does have a significant power gap between it and the DDs because it lacks radar, but that is because it blinds itself with smoke and has OP reputation that makes it a major target and allows DDs to sneak up right next to the smoke for close to point blank ranged torpedo drops. My IJN ships will spot a DD at minimum of 5.4km, my getting mysteriously spotted can inform me at times that a DD is within my concealment range, and I can manage my hydro to spot torpedoes well in advance. And also the IJN CAs tend to have decent torpedo protection that allows them to better take a torpedo hit if need be. But the point is even without radar there is not a devastating power gap.

I find that the presence of a CV has little, if any impact on the mood of the players.

The presence of DD's on the other hand, regardless of there being CV's or not, usually flushes that mood down the toilet. If they aren't crying about CV's, they're crying about radar, if it's not radar, it because the team didn't support them when they punched the engine boost and drove straight into a cap that very soon had half the red team in it. If they aren't crying about that, they're crying about people hacking the game to hit them.

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7 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I find that the presence of a CV has little, if any impact on the mood of the players.

I dunno. Seeing how a good 50% of CV players just aren't very good, it can be very disappointing to be matched with a CV that's being ineffective. A bad BB player can at least sit there and do delaying action by soaking damage away from good BB players. A bad CV player just brings potential to enable an enemy CV to wreck havoc on your team while not contributing much in return. Since you only get 2 CVs at most in a team, they kind of standout in the kill feed if the enemy CVs are getting kills (regardless of whether they're killsteals or not) and yours isn't along with not having much field presence.

Or maybe that's only from the perspective of fellow CV players, who have a better idea of what good and bad CV plays are?

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2 hours ago, yaluen said:

I dunno. Seeing how a good 50% of CV players just aren't very good, it can be very disappointing to be matched with a CV that's being ineffective. A bad BB player can at least sit there and do delaying action by soaking damage away from good BB players. A bad CV player just brings potential to enable an enemy CV to wreck havoc on your team while not contributing much in return. Since you only get 2 CVs at most in a team, they kind of standout in the kill feed if the enemy CVs are getting kills (regardless of whether they're killsteals or not) and yours isn't along with not having much field presence.

Or maybe that's only from the perspective of fellow CV players, who have a better idea of what good and bad CV plays are?

Well, It's not that different between ineffective BB's and CV's. A bad BB can draw fire provided it sailed out somewhere it could get shot at, a bad CV can spot while it feeds it's planes into an AA deathball.

Also, thanks to the rework, most of the good CV wrecking havoc on one team has little, if anything to do with the bad CV. WG largely removed the ability of one CV to shut down another. It's generally the non-CV's are responsible for what a good CV player can and cannot do to them. 

CV's getting kills or not is a pretty pointless measurement for good or bad CV players. CV's can do three things, damage, spot, and influence movement. A good CV will make use of these to ensure it's team has a better game than the other guys. If you aren't getting ambushed by a DD you didn't see, the CV is slowing the reds charge down the weak side of the map, or you get to shoot someone broadside that turned to avoid air dropped torps, you've got a good CV driver.

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On 5/6/2020 at 3:45 AM, alexf24 said:

My only complaint, is that WG should make a fast rule of one CV per side, not two or three.

Never seen 3 per side. But I think 2 per side is more enjoyable than one or none.

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On 5/6/2020 at 4:44 AM, Gods_Eyes said:

This is World of Warships. Not World of Airplanes.  

Am I playing as a pilot, or a boat captain?  Specifically all spotting ability needs to be removed from airplanes, including attack planes and torpedo bombers. Everything. Zero spotting ability.  Allow me to explain: 

I just played a tier 6 match with two carriers working together.  The first located and perma spotted the destroyers sitting BEHIND friendly AA cruisers(no issue here right).  The second came in with rockets and killed the destroyers.  If two carriers are banned from divisions, they should currently be banned from having 2 in a match together. Their ability to spot and work together with focus fire is unparalleled.  

However, this highlights the most important balance issue with CV.  They can spot with planes.  The ship itself is a tall ship, and should have super buffed spotting ability.  Give the CV itself the ability to see concealed destroyers 8km away, but the planes need to have ZERO ability to spot at all.  This would balance the game play to put it on par with a battleship.  

 


To draw a parallel: A Montana can shoot anywhere on the map.  I devastating strike derpy players in the first 2 minutes of matches, easy. Despite having similar ability to strike anywhere on the map, The Montana Cannot Spot 25km Away.

So let's take a step back.  Saying the planes shouldn't be able to spot anything would be MUCH more balanced than the current iteration of carriers, but it's not perfect. So what would be?  Here's some ideas: 

1)  Create "no spotting" zones within (about) 2km of all islands, where destroyers cannot be spotted by carriers whatsoever.  

2) Penalize missed drops.  If the Hakurya wants to drop some of his torpedos on an island to save planes, those planes should instantly explode when neither of their torpedos hit an enemy target.  I hate that I have to game the system and drop bombers to stay relevant as a CV driver. It works around AA in a cheating way. 

 

~

I love playing carrier.  

Recently regrinding the IJN destroyer line for research bureau, and it has become extremely apparent how big of a balance issue carriers have right now.  Destroyers (ESPECIALLY AT THE LOWER TIERS) are irrelevant against Good carrier players.  

Yes, I can still use my destroyer in a relevant way occasionally, but that is ONLY against carrier players that have no idea how to play.  As it stands, the carrier is a radar boat with 40km radar.   12km radar itself should be removed from the game, so tell me, how balanced do you think 40km radar is??

chrome_shaIjyxx5K.png

Are you righting for the onion?  O that's right its just another extremely terrible idea from someone that has spent way to much time playing a GAME.  Another DD player that refuses to play the CV or will pretend there amazing at it.  

Your idea is simply trash.  

Here is an idea for you.  When a DD is firing its stealth torps it becomes visible as if it fired its gun.

When your torp missed you love the same HP as the torp.

Don't like them?????

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I think people are forgetting something here.....

 

AIRCRAFT HAVE RADIOS, AND PEOPLE WITH EYEBALLS IN THEM.  not too difficult to simply radio the carrier and be like:   aircraft, "hey boss?"  carrier, " yea?"  aircraft, "there's a ship down below me."  carrier, "are they shooting at you or do they have a different flag than ours?"  aircraft (watching his buddys get smashed by AAA, "yep"  carrier, "k then, thats an enemy, where you is?"  aircraft, "G6kp4, headed north... ish"  carrier, "k then"  (jots this down on the fleet tactical board) "look you can die now if the AA is too much"   aircraft, "k" (gets blapped)

 

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

Edited by hammerfall314

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