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wolfkind252

Bots and torpedoes

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OK question, I just left a battle after a Sough Carolina killed me, problem is I torpedoed it 6 times, well I tried, close range, medium range it out maneuvered them all , so....somebody please explain why a bot South Carolina out maneuvers ANY torpedo, even if fired for two different destroyers from two different sides, but the South Carolina I have or a battle ship anybody else on my team has  cant even outmaneuver a tree

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2 minutes ago, wolfkind252 said:

OK question, I just left a battle after a Sough Carolina killed me, problem is I torpedoed it 6 times, well I tried, close range, medium range it out maneuvered them all , so....somebody please explain why a bot South Carolina out maneuvers ANY torpedo, even if fired for two different destroyers from two different sides, but the South Carolina I have or a battle ship anybody else on my team has  cant even outmaneuver a tree

Post the video or pic of that moment... We'll critique it.

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Probably the South Carolina was already turning, and therefore firing on the “suggested” solution wouldn’t work, sometimes you also have to “lead” torpedoes.

But yeah, a replay/screenshots would help.

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Just attach the replay.  When you reply to the thread you can drag the replay to it and attach it.  It'll be definitive proof.  Also tell at what time stamp the event happens.  In your WoWS directory, there's a Replays folder and it'll be there.  The game makes a replay file for the matches you play and keeps them for so long before purging them.

 

Also another FYI, if you want to watch your replay, when the computer asks what to use to open the file type with, use the WorldOfWarships application.  Be completely exited out of the game though when you want to view a replay.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Bots have incredible spidey sense and even know about shots from never detected ships. They are also able to turn much tighter and faster than human controlled ships.

To successfully torpedo BB's you need to be four or less Km and more like two for cruisers and DD's.

Edited by BrushWolf
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Also, I know you mentioned low tier as an example, OP, but doing torpedo drops against the bots at a distance is very low hit%.  They know when you launched torps and will often have taken evasive maneuvers to throw off your torp salvo most the time.  For PVE, torpedo attacks need to be done at close range, i.e. "I can see the captain in his bridge and I can knock him out by throwing a potato at him" levels of close, if you want higher hit %.

 

In PVE, 8km, 10km, 12km, 16km torps are useless, because you're more efficiently dropping torpedoes in "slap the enemy" ranges.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Also, I know you mentioned low tier as an example, OP, but doing torpedo drops against the bots at a distance is very low hit%.  They know when you launched torps and will often have taken evasive maneuvers to throw off your torp salvo most the time.  For PVE, torpedo attacks need to be done at close range, i.e. "I can see the captain in his bridge and I can knock him out by throwing a potato at him" levels of close, if you want higher hit %.

In PVE, 8km, 10km, 12km, 16km torps are useless, because you're more efficiently dropping torpedoes in "slap the enemy" ranges.

Some crazies are capable of charging the bots in the first minutes of a match and zapping two or three of them with torps.

My preference is to smoke up and gun down the bot destroyer that would magically manage to torpedo me to death if I didn’t, then to charge the bigger ships as they close in on my smoke.

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3 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Some crazies are capable of charging the bots in the first minutes of a match and zapping two or three of them with torps.

My preference is to smoke up and gun down the bot destroyer that would magically manage to torpedo me to death if I didn’t, then to charge the bigger ships as they close in on my smoke.

That's what I do also.

Smoke up just outside the cap with a DD.

Let the Cruiser behind me who's getting shot up spot for me while I gun down the bot DD :Smile_trollface:

Charge the non-torpedo Cruisers, Battleships behind it and do point blank torp drops.

 

Things can vary a little though.  It's different with a non-smoke capable DD (FR DDs at least have hard hitting torps).  Torpedo reload also plays a role because I spec for torp reload speeds.  IJN F3s on their DDs, Fletcher torps, Benham, etc. I'd launch early, pray for hits on the DD.  By the time the bigger, slower ships are inside the cap, the torps have reloaded again.

 

Shimakaze with 3 launchers of F3 torps is fantastic at that.

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2 hours ago, wolfkind252 said:

OK question, I just left a battle after a Sough Carolina killed me, problem is I torpedoed it 6 times, well I tried, close range, medium range it out maneuvered them all , so....somebody please explain why a bot South Carolina out maneuvers ANY torpedo, even if fired for two different destroyers from two different sides, but the South Carolina I have or a battle ship anybody else on my team has  cant even outmaneuver a tree

Okay, I did mention to quite a few that a bot program usually emulates players that have interesting traits of their own.

If I am designing a bot, I want it to study a specific player based on criteria for survival. That being torpedo evasive technique and angling. There are lots of players to choose from based on data, but a developer would want to know how a torpedo beat is done on say a South Carolina.

USS South Carolina is slow. Ice cream trucks can pass it. But what it lacks in speed it more than makes up in turns.

US dreadnaughts all have a common trait with steering. They can turn fast without losing much speed and can shorten that turn radius by just "tapping the brakes".

How is a basic "tapping the brakes" performed?

Say you are sailing full ahead and you see a DD wide, mindset is he fired, so you drop the telegraph to full reverse for 1 second, hard turn in to him, set telegraph to full ahead and continue turn. This slows the ship down to half and reduces turn radius by half. The incoming torpedoes were based on a fast heading and you just threw off the timing by a substantial amount.

In baseball, it's akin to throwing a changeup after throwing fastballs. You have to sell the fastball, then throw the changeup.

In the case of bots, I sell a speedy heading and once I see a DD opening up, I tap the brakes. His torps sail wide open and you are grinning as you took that time to load HE.

Now bots may have studied this trick. I have done the trick over the span of two years and WG, or maybe it's Devs realized that I didn't get hit so much by bot torpedoes as others. Was I using magic? No.

I just used WASD with a speed adjustment to alter the firing solution of the enemy by feinting a heading to lure the enemy bot to fire. By making myself a tempting target, it makes a fatal mistake.

So, bots do learn. It's not magic. They have no special skills. They just learn by just watching clever players.

The more sophisticated the AI, the more likely they learn from you.

Is it my fault? Maybe. Probably.

Tell an AI that they must win by any means necessary, then the bots will study you.

If you play silly, then they are probably not interested in you. Like all adversaries, human or machine, one wants to fight the best to improve.

I think WG is studying players. But only ones that play co-op. But if such players are applying similar tactics as Randoms, then the bots do excel past the human opponent because they are more methodical. They are not distracted by cats, pizza, or other things human. They just get you.

:cap_cool:

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14 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

That's what I do also.

Smoke up just outside the cap with a DD.

Let the Cruiser behind me who's getting shot up spot for me while I gun down the bot DD :Smile_trollface:

Charge the non-torpedo Cruisers, Battleships behind it and do point blank torp drops.

And it’s gotta be point-blank: 1.9km or bust!

Depending on what’s behind me, speed boost to cap ‘cuz I intend to get it all for for myself. Angle off a bit so the CA/CL behind can spot for me when I smoke up. And so the reds can focus him and not me.

Maybe stop out side the cap, if I need to get Defended ribbons. Let the red DD see me and fire on me, guaranteeing spotting by our cruiser. Smoke up. Gun down DD. The reds fire on our cruiser because he blew concealment when he unloaded on the red DD.

Soften up the incoming cruiser with gunfire until its time to charge out of my smoke. Don’t soften him up so much that the cruiser or BB behind me can get the kill easily. Torps out, lights out.

Move on to the red BB. Hold gunfire, even if detected, even after torp launch, to minimize making the kill easy for other greens. Unless his hitpoints are so high that my remaining torps won’t get him down. In that case, its gunfire city before, during and after launch.

The biggest wrenches in the works for that sequence are Des Moines, Smolensk, or Minotaur in the cap with me, green or red.
 

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Bots always know where you are,  at all times,  they know when you are aiming at them and they know when you launch torpedoes and they will begin maneuvering to avoid  them the second you hit the release button.  You have to be on their doorstep to effectively hit them with torpedoes.  As was mentioned some of the crazier players have gotten good at bum rushing the bots and torping them early on but that takes a bit of practice.

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19 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Bots have incredible spidey sense and even know about shots from never detected ships. They are also able to turn much tighter and faster than human controlled ships.

To successfully torpedo BB's you need to be four or less Km and more like two for cruisers and DD's.

THAT explains the entire question, thank you

I don't like posting replays because another game I played once I posted a replay and got condemned for it because I was helping a friend kill a monster instead of fighting one skeleton wit the other 5 people, that apparently had no idea that if you hit it with the sword  it falls apart

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I am not a cop-op main by any stretch of the imagination, but I have noticed that the bot's ability to dodge torpedoes is somehow linked to your "target lock".

If I lock on to a target and fire torps where the torp aim-assist suggests, the bot easily dodges the torps. 

Instead, I lock on to a target, note where the torp aim-assist vector is is suggesting, and then I deselect the current target with the X key and then send torps where the aim assist said to.

Most of the time they don't even try to dodge the torps. 

My guess is the code tells the bots to dodge torps from ships that are targeting them and have specific firing solutions. So when you don't have a target selected and you just fire torps (seemingly at random to the bots) along the correct vectors, they don't dodge.

 

Caveat warning, I am not a co-op main so I do not do this very often. However, whenever I have taken a torpedo boat into co-op this strategy has worked for me.

Edited by Rokkator

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On 5/5/2020 at 5:57 PM, wolfkind252 said:

OK question, I just left a battle after a Sough Carolina killed me, problem is I torpedoed it 6 times, well I tried, close range, medium range it out maneuvered them all , so....somebody please explain why a bot South Carolina out maneuvers ANY torpedo, even if fired for two different destroyers from two different sides, but the South Carolina I have or a battle ship anybody else on my team has  cant even outmaneuver a tree

I maneuver pretty well with this ship. The problem is that most players don't pay attention if they don't see any torpedoes. Bots are coded to react to everything that they can see, including many things players don't care about. Including: why are the tubes on that Umikaze pointed in my direction? I can do it, anybody can do it, it's just that nobody does. And so nobody is ready for the bots to do it.

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Word of advice don't ever take on bots with torps if they are focused on you because ninety-nine percent of the time you will lose :Smile_hiding:

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12 hours ago, LastRemnant said:

Word of advice don't ever take on bots with torps if they are focused on you because ninety-nine percent of the time you will lose :Smile_hiding:

Yea I have noticed, the only way to torpedo a bot is to get well inside its secondaries and take the hits, then launch, and never mind doing that to a destroyer, just cruisers and above bot destroyers require HE rounds raining down on them

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Bots have many "magical" skills. Knowing you have locked torps on them, they start to evade before the torps are in the water, On some days, they can absorb damage to a ludicrous degree, or a bot BB can swap ends in a turn a DD would have a hard time matching. They can engage multiple targets with amazing accuracy and have a 110% fire chance. They know where the green DDs are before they are ever spotted. Killing a tuned up bot is a lot of fun, and this IS a game! It's supposed to be fun!

 

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