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TaxDollarsAtWork

High tier Italian CAs, just can't hack it?

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Hello I've got a few questions about these ships

Namely what do they bring to the table at T 8 9 and Potentially 10 (Have not tried this one yet)

Seems to me they only offer high reload 203mm guns that I can only get over pens or no pens with, leading me to my next point poor alpha compared to its peers with guns in the 305 to 310mm range which can now over-match thinner armour but cant compete with them in terms of range and alpha or conversely ships unable to I guess machine gun and offer DMP/DOT like you'd see DDs and US CAs do (sans alska puerto rico types)

In regards to consumables they don't even bring anything to the table such as radar to counter smokes, DFAA, or at the very least Hydro to work as a DD screen

Now I've heard multiple times they're good DD hunters with there flat shooting guns and SAP, but they don't have the concealment to hunt them down or spot for the team or other tools necessary for hunting DDs. I heard the stories of SAP being lethal to them. I guess its fair but given their small HP pool just about anything shooting HE with a decent enough sized gun will deal good damage to the DD per salvo or heck even UK CLs with their AP machine guns that don't overpen. 

 

Im just not convinced I bring anything to the team with these ships like the Brindisi or Amalfi. L2P or Power creep, bad ship line maybe?

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The main issue with lower tier It CA’s is SAP saturation and lack of barrels.  High Alpha damage on the first salvo, but follow up damage is lacking against mainly BB’s. They do massive damage against DD’s and CA’s/CL’s but their long reload bites them in the butt.  High tier (9/10) are different animals.  They still suffer from SAP saturation but with 12-15 shells in the air, it makes up for it.

If you're shooting AP at long range you’re doing it wrong.  Italian AP penetration is... not great, but is still powerful at closer ranges.  Invest in EL and be patient, use their maneuverability... and for gods sake, if a DD is spotted and they’re in arty range, fire upon them.

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My best advice for the high tier Italians (and the line as a whole, actually) is to basically forget AP exists outside of catching a cruiser broadside at short range. SAP simply wrecks things, having the highest consistent alpha strike among cruisers. These are ships best played from afar, hitting any ship giving broadside with salvo after salvo of SAP, using their incredible maneuverability to dodge return fire. Plus, they have a good escape button with fuel smoke as well.

As for DDs, don't hunt them unless bigger targets are all dead. Do shoot at them if they do get spotted, but hunting them too soon will get you killed due to a lack of detection options.

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30 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Hello I've got a few questions about these ships

Namely what do they bring to the table at T 8 9 and Potentially 10 (Have not tried this one yet)

Seems to me they only offer high reload 203mm guns that I can only get over pens or no pens with, leading me to my next point poor alpha compared to its peers with guns in the 305 to 310mm range which can now over-match thinner armour but cant compete with them in terms of range and alpha or conversely ships unable to I guess machine gun and offer DMP/DOT like you'd see DDs and US CAs do (sans alska puerto rico types)

In regards to consumables they don't even bring anything to the table such as radar to counter smokes, DFAA, or at the very least Hydro to work as a DD screen

Now I've heard multiple times they're good DD hunters with there flat shooting guns and SAP, but they don't have the concealment to hunt them down or spot for the team or other tools necessary for hunting DDs. I heard the stories of SAP being lethal to them. I guess its fair but given their small HP pool just about anything shooting HE with a decent enough sized gun will deal good damage to the DD per salvo or heck even UK CLs with their AP machine guns that don't overpen. 

 

Im just not convinced I bring anything to the team with these ships like the Brindisi or Amalfi. L2P or Power creep, bad ship line maybe?

The Tier 10 is so much better then the others (and significantly better then 9) it is not even funny. If you have a semi competent spotting team you can put alot of pressure on that flank and you have tools such as the fuel smoke that others wish they have. Armor is trolly as well. Very fun! 

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The Venezia is absurdly strong and currently dominating the higher leagues in Clan Battles.  It murders DDs, out trades pretty much every cruiser in the game in mid to long range engagements, has amazing handling, and the ability to disengage at will with its special fuel smoke that can be deployed even at its max speed of 38 knots.  It doesn't quite have the same damage farming potential of something like a Smolensk or Hindenburg given the lack of HE/fires....but it generally produces higher impact damage while its incredible handling/survivability allows it to safely take greater risks and make more aggressive plays (giving it the opportunity to deal even more damage).


The Venezia is easily one of the best Tier X cruisers right now, for competitive and randoms.  

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14 minutes ago, Steeler_Nation_USA said:

The Tier 10 is so much better then the others (and significantly better then 9) it is not even funny. If you have a semi competent spotting team you can put alot of pressure on that flank and you have tools such as the fuel smoke that others wish they have. Armor is trolly as well. Very fun! 

Maybe if WG wasn’t obsessively making garbage bellow T8 or 9, seemingly for the purpose of ‘encouraging’ players into higher tiers, I might believe such.

If a line is garbage at lower tiers, I am disinclined to believe it will be any better higher up.

Oddly; I’ve liked Genova, Duca a’Costa, (more so lately, than when I first got it,) and Gorizia; all for various reasons.

The tree ships though? Not so much.

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Don't believe it all

given all I've seen is lots of goal post moving moving on the community I don't think they actually do get better at TX As I was promised that would be the case at TVIII and TIX

Its effort best spent on other lines

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1 hour ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Don't believe it all

given all I've seen is lots of goal post moving moving on the community I don't think they actually do get better at TX As I was promised that would be the case at TVIII and TIX

Its effort best spent on other lines

   You can believe it where Venezia is concerned. Meta in Clan Battles is a CV or BB and 50/50 split radar/kiting cruisers. The Venezia is the go to kiting cruiser for CB this season. Heck the fuel smoke even lasts long enough to cap in CB caps. Venezia is the real deal in competitive and strong in randoms.

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The whole line has been fun to play for me. The low tiers less so but still fun. You just play at range for most of the battle, at least early stages. The t8-10 get very strong and would agree with other posts that if played right is an absolute beast. The expert loader and special captain is deadly on broadside cruisers but is very situational. Still valuable tho

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26 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

What special captain? I have about 7 ~ 11 points on mine

Luigi Sanconetti, or however you spell it

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Venezia

Pros:

Amazing turn rate, good top speed, very durable armor scheme, good HP pool, panic smoke to force people to concentrate on other ships, very good shell velocity, spotter plane can cover for its mediocre range, has torps with great angles, but only 3 a side and they are slow.

Cons:

AP lacks penetration, SAP round is not angle-agnostic like HE so things can get slow if targets nose in, detection range is a bit high which conflicts with DD hunting, SAP shells have issues on certain targets like Russian BBs because while they pen something like 76mm I think it was at crazy angles, RU BBs tend to have walls of 100mm+ armor on the majority of their side. This means you can only reliably hit superstructure for the big pens, and after that gets saturated even if he goes broadside you aren’t going to get much per volley no matter where you aim because the penable area is small.

 

I can’t stress how the armor scheme + smoke + stupid levels of maneuverability makes the ship. Forget SAP, that’s the reason to play Venezia. It’s like someone took all the nice things about a CL, slapped 30mm all over it, and Venezia gets both for free. Then as a bonus you get 3 get out of jail free cards because why not. It’s a really strong ship. It plays well into CV. It just has issues stopping things that can point their nose at you and push the W key, and a few BBs. If your team doesn’t let them do that, then it’s a great ship. 
 

I’ll just repost this here from the other post about a week ago asking about the Venezia.

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Sap does not work on Russian BB under t8 for some reasons. I did not like/hated the line till t7. T7 is ok.  T8 9 and 10 are fantastic.  

You can dev strike DD, ap on close broadside Crusiers is a nasty surprise.  It might be the best t10.

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18 minutes ago, Sou1forge said:

AP lacks penetration, SAP round is not angle-agnostic like HE so things can get slow if targets nose in, detection range is a bit high which conflicts with DD hunting, SAP shells have issues on certain targets like Russian BBs because while they pen something like 76mm I think it was at crazy angles RU BBs tend to have walls of 100mm+ armor on the majority of their side

A few things...the AP pen is actually not bad, it's better than the Zao and only worse than the Moskva/Henri amongst "traditional" cruisers, albeit by a considerable margin.  SAP can actually be highly effective against angled targets at long range....the angle of fall is steep enough the SAP shells won't auto bounce off the deck and top of the bow/stern.  I've hit perfectly bow in Stalingrads for 20k salvos at near max range.  

SAP works like HE in terms of pen....it will go through 54mm of plating regardless of angle as long as it doesn't ricochet, the issue is some Soviet and Japanese BBs have sections of 57mm and 60mm plating that will shatter SAP.  The Kurfurst also has 60mm plating on the nose and a really thick (150mm IIRC) upper belt, so at close ranges only its super structure is vulnerable to SAP (SAP will pen the deck at long ranges).  There are a few other ships with impervious upper belts, like the Ägir's 90mm plating, and I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting about.    

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6 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

Sap does not work on Russian BB under t8 for some reasons.

*It works on the Tier 8s as well.  

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5 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

You can dev strike T10  DD,  

In one salvo...that is unusual but happens often with SAP

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4 minutes ago, BearlyHereBear said:

In one salvo...that is unusual but happens often with SAP

I could do it with the t8.  Stealth is low enough that I would move up with the dd cap and dev the DD.  

T9 and 10 have a rather high detection.

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5 minutes ago, yashma said:

*It works on the Tier 8s as well.  

I have been practicing with Zara for rank and found the SAP would bounce on Scharn and Sinop. 

Rank will be filled with both of them.  AP at range pen and I have no idea why.

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Personally, I have a very low opinion of the Italian CAs.  Despite the general trash of that line, Tier X Venezia is a monster.  She has characteristics to her that none of the other ITA CAs have.  She has lots more guns, and WoWS loves extra guns to help mask issues.  She also has better SAP bounce angles than every other ITA Cruiser.  Not even IX Brindisi has those improved bounce angles Venezia has.  IMO, she is holding up the entire ITA Cruiser Line single-handed.

 

The extraordinary amount of guns she has offsets lots of issues.

+ She reloads slow, but it doesn't matter because every salvo can have up to 15 shells.

+ SAP can be bounced off heavy armor, main battery turrets, conning towers, etc.  But with 15 shells being fired at someone, some of those are going to find their mark to get some Penetration damage.

 

She reminds me in a way of Lyon.  The Tier VII FR BB has garbage guns for her tier, garbage dispersion, garbage accuracy.  The shells aren't even that impressive.  She doesn't really have an Overmatch advantage, not with 340mm guns in Tier VII.  But with a 16-gun salvo, all that doesn't matter.  Despite the many bad gun, shell attributes, she is considered a highlight ship in that line.

 

Venezia is just like that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, yashma said:

The Venezia is absurdly strong and currently dominating the higher leagues in Clan Battles.  It murders DDs, out trades pretty much every cruiser in the game in mid to long range engagements, has amazing handling, and the ability to disengage at will with its special fuel smoke that can be deployed even at its max speed of 38 knots.  It doesn't quite have the same damage farming potential of something like a Smolensk or Hindenburg given the lack of HE/fires....but it generally produces higher impact damage while its incredible handling/survivability allows it to safely take greater risks and make more aggressive plays (giving it the opportunity to deal even more damage).


The Venezia is easily one of the best Tier X cruisers right now, for competitive and randoms.  

WG developers reading this: "Hmm... time to buff Smolensk and Stalingrad."

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I wanted to focus on the T8 and 9 with this discussion mostly but it seems I was right to wager they were not worth it

As for the clan battles argument which pops up often it's a mute point as I play randoms and things a quite a bit different as there is obviously going to be less coms less involved team work and the game play will be lower to the skill floor than the ceiling

More guns would not fix the lines issues if it didn't work from Amalfi to Brindisi why would it work on the TX

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13 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

More guns would not fix the lines issues if it didn't work from Amalfi to Brindisi why would it work on the TX

It works on the Amalfi and Brindisi too, but the poster saying Venezia works because of the number of guns doesn't know what they're talking about. If SAP sucked it would still suck even if you had 15 guns, but it doesn't.

 

Compared to same tier cruisers, the damage output doesn't change too much from tier 8 to 10. Venezia gets a hidden improvement to SAP ricochet angles that makes it noticeably more reliable, but it doesn't gain as much raw damage output as some other lines do (like Venezia has 25% more guns than Brindisi; Hindenburg has 33% more guns than Roon with a better layout and faster reload).

The thing that carries the high tier Italian cruisers is the defense. Between the unpunishable armor scheme, smoke button, and ridiculous maneuverability you can get away with a lot in a Venezia that other cruisers couldn't, and you can keep shooting the guns all the time. The tier 7-9 ships have kind of the same damage output (obviously not as much as the Venezia, but that's normal) but they don't all stay alive as well.

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17 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I wanted to focus on the T8 and 9 with this discussion mostly but it seems I was right to wager they were not worth it

As for the clan battles argument which pops up often it's a mute point as I play randoms and things a quite a bit different as there is obviously going to be less coms less involved team work and the game play will be lower to the skill floor than the ceiling

More guns would not fix the lines issues if it didn't work from Amalfi to Brindisi why would it work on the TX

Nothing wrong with the Amalfi or Brindisi and it does get better with Venezia because she has better pen angles on her SAP.  The Italian cruisers can be tricky to play, particularly against opponents that know how to angle against them.  Anytime you get even a bit of a ship's broadside SAP is very effective, my best salvo was with Venezia at a near broadside Hindenburg about 11km away, did a little over 20k damage with one salvo.  I've done 10-12k salvos against various DDs.

Given your posts I feel like you don't want to listen to people with a bit of experience playing them, it seems you've already made up your mind you don't like them.

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secret of using SAP and Italian cruisers.

Know ships armor.

Know the ships that can shatter your shells.

AIM at the parts of the ship that won't shatter your shells.

BB got tough nose?.. No problem,  don't shoot it in the nose..drop your shells a little further back on the target.  IT Guns are very tame and predictable as to where they hit.  They go right where you aim them so work on your aim.

I have to earn Venizia (research blaa blaa blaa) back but while I had it, I had no concern about target angle because if it were in range I could put the shells exactly where I wanted them and rack up the damage over time.  The trick in here is knowing when to pop smoke and run, and when we say run we mean RUN!.. not reposition, run, get out of range, get concealed THEN reposition.

The italian ships play differently than other cruisers.. Some players never figure this out.  scratch that.. MOST players never figure it out.  It's easy to tell who the worst culprits are as all they ever do is trash talk the ships.  THEY can't figure out how to drive them there fore they must be trash!

I personally like them but you gotta think like swordsman with a light blade.  It's all about finesse.   They are not a bludgeon.  They are not a flame thrower.. they are a scalpel.  They dance.  Always be turning, always be speeding up or slowing down.. Never hold a study course, never hold a study speed.  Not ever or you will die.  And use your torps! They're really not bad at all, and you got great arcs.  Your secondaries and AA are not to be sneezed at either.  Sufficient unto the job.

 

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On 4/28/2020 at 9:33 PM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

poor alpha compared to its peers with guns in the 305 to 310mm range 

Those are all non-tech tree "supercruisers". They are not peers.

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