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Disagree with me but RTS CV were balanced in 1 way

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However broken and OP the RTS CV's were, they were atleast balanced in the aspect that you had a limited number of planes. If any CV player was careless about his fighters or any squadron then he would pay heavily and be useless once the reserves had been depleted which actually meant you had to have atleast some game knowledge about ships to do good in rts CV's.

Yes CV's have limited number of planes now too (technically), all you have to do is save your planes at the start and you will still have full squadrons at the end of the game. The pleasure of seeing a CV deplaned is gone unless theres some terribad CV player out there who yolos in his planes.

CV rework was supposed to reduce the gap between good and bad players. It has utterly failed at that as even now the red PR CV players is as useless as in RTS and the unicum CV player just laughs at him. The red PR players now have more planes to spot the enemy team which is basically all theyre good at while yoloing their planes and occasionally getting some high damage numbers which to be fair to any player he really shouldnt have

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9 minutes ago, LookUpAndDodge said:

Yes CV's have limited number of planes now too (technically), all you have to do is save your planes at the start and you will still have full squadrons at the end of the game

And... how is it different than before? And it happens quite often to see wave of plane with barely enough for one attack, especially with ships like Halland.

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7 minutes ago, LookUpAndDodge said:

However broken and OP the RTS CV's were, they were atleast balanced in the aspect that you had a limited number of planes. If any CV player was careless about his fighters or any squadron then he would pay heavily and be useless once the reserves had been depleted which actually meant you had to have atleast some game knowledge about ships to do good in rts CV's.

You want planes to be limited like the old days so players have to be smart with them and not waste them but you don't want the same for regular ships?  Wouldn't it be better if ships had limited ammo so they don't just randomly spam shells all over when ever they are reloaded?  It would make people choose more careful when to shoot if they only had a certain number of shots.  

I am ok with what they have now because in the end this is a game.  In the old days a good player would deplane a CV in minutes.  Then The CV can't do anything the rest of the match.  That is no fun.  I think the skill level is a lot closer than it was.  You will always have exceptional players and terrible players in any ship.  CVs are no worse than any other ship in that regard.  

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So... good players are better than bad ones... it happens to all classes not just CVs.

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Well...to be perfectly honest, dumping planes before you attack is silly and basically you are admitting that you can't hit a ship with a full strike. You are essentially modifying your attack so you don't lose planes and that was not the original intent of the rework.

Slingshot, not original intent of the rework. Flying shima, F key, P key spam same.

 

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CVs countered each other.  That had its drawbacks but so does having no counter at all.

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28 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

CVs countered each other.  That had its drawbacks but so does having no counter at all.

Badda :etc_swear: Bing.

Even If they didnt go after each other, (y'know like every Pacific battle with a carrier on each side) it kept the CV players paying attention to possible threats to their ship staying afloat. Thats not much of a consideration now at higher tiers. 

Edited by Pugilistic
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These types have a hard time dealing with anything that isn't on a 2D plane such as surface ships. Subs will be a rude awakening when they have to deal with both above and below. The 2D world they wish they could have is changing to a 3D one.  I'm not sure the CV whiners have thought that far ahead yet. The meta is changing whether they like it or not. There are two choices here. Adapt or just keep bouncing between anger and bargaining.  I do wish we could get to the acceptance phase so the healing can begin but that is likely never going to happen.

5-stages-of-grief.jpg

Edited by Ban_CV_Complainers
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14 minutes ago, Pugilistic said:

Badda :etc_swear: Bing.

Even If they didnt go after each other, (y'know like every Pacific battle with a carrier on each side) it kept the CV players paying attention to possible threats to their ship staying afloat. Thats not much of a consideration now at higher tiers. 

Once they got to tier VIII+ sniping became basically impossible. They had to pay the slightest amount of attention required to activate their long-duration DFAA, which essentially negated any attack, making an attempt at a CV snipe worthless and a huge waste of the attacking carrier's time.

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48 minutes ago, LookUpAndDodge said:

 all you have to do is save your planes at the start and you will still have full squadrons at the end of the game. 

That's all you ever had to do.

The difference is, RTS gave you the option of fielding multiple squadrons at once. A decent RTS CV player wouldn't likely have been deplaned had they only operated 1 squadron at a time. Currently, you can't feed planes fast enough to get deplaned like RTS, even if there was a fixed hangar capacity. Even if you fly them right from the deck to a squadron wipe, it'll still take you close to 10 minutes to be down to half squadrons.

That's what people totally miss when comparing RTS to current CVs. The regen actually limits how many of the same type squadron you can field in quick succession. 

Currently, I can send out 2 squadrons of rocket planes at the beginning of the game. If they get mauled, I have to come back and try to finish off DDs with less suitable squadron types. If there were a hangar limit instead of regen, there would be nothing stopping me from using 4-5 squadrons of rocket planes off the hop, and getting the DDs before they can do anything. After the DDs were gone, it wouldn't matter if I had rocket planes left, because I prefer to go after other ships with TBs and DBs. At the point when the DDs are gone, I then have a full complement of TBs and DBs to spam. 

With regen, I have to use less than ideal squadron types, and I have to mix it up.

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48 minutes ago, Admiral_Andy said:

You want planes to be limited like the old days so players have to be smart with them and not waste them....

And as I mentioned, "being smart" with them also means spamming the ideal squadron type for your target, until it was dead. I'd have no issue with using all my rocket planes first, if it killed DDs faster.

At least in a DD now, if the first couple rocket plane squadrons don't sink you, you know the next one or two will be a less scary type.

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Bring back the RTS model with the RTS era AA levels....drop the damage down to current levels and allow for plane regen at current levels.

Or increase plane regen and allow AA boats to have their old AA levels.....

Make Wooster and Minotaur and Des Moines Great Again lol.

 

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5 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Once they got to tier VIII+ sniping became basically impossible. They had to pay the slightest amount of attention required to activate their long-duration DFAA, which essentially negated any attack, making an attempt at a CV snipe worthless and a huge waste of the attacking carrier's time.

Agreed. Nothing (off the top of my head anyway lol) made me angrier than watching our CV send all his squadrons around the map border after the enemy CV. By the time they got there, the enemy CV had sunk 3 of our ships, and the CV snipe might knock off 1/4 to 1/3 of the CVs HP, (if he was lucky) in return for the loss of all those planes. 

At least if we had a potato CV player that didn't go after the enemy CV, he'd damage or sink a ship or two, and provide some incidental spotting.

TBH, IMO, the ability to sink the enemy CV in RTS was a trap for your CV.

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I'm sorry but how is the ability to completely and totally nullify a ship from doing damage balanced? 

If a ship cannot damage another with AP it can use HE. If HE isnt doing damage than it can still cause a fire. If fires are hard to come by, a number of ships have torpedoes. If torpedoes arent doing great damage during to bulges they can still cause floods. If nothing else some ships can simply spot for allies to do damage. 

By completely destroying the armament, planes, of the Carrier you remove its ability to do anything other than suicide charge and hope for secondaries to do some damage and maybe a ram. 

Part of the problem with the anti-CV rhetoric is that players want to prevent all damage and dont understand they should be able to mitigate it but not prevent it.

Let's say a Hak launches 12 torpedo bombers to attack you. 12 planes each dropping a torpedo roughly capable of doing 9,000 damage. That's 108,000 total alpha damage potential.

If you and you allied ships shoot down 6 planes that potential damage is reduced to 54,000 potential damage. Without including the ability of the targeted player to dodge or passive mechanics like torpedo bulges you have cut the carriers damage potential in half already.

If the CV replaces those planes at 1 minute per plane, his potential damage only climbs to 63,000 potential damage.

A Battleship able to shoot 12 guns with a potential alpha damage of 15,000 has a total potential damage of 180,000 for the entire match as long as he is alive. 

The issue is that many players accept that 180,000 damage isnt going to happen 99% of the time but they think all 108,000 of potential damage from that CV attack will happen 1000% of the time. Somehow, angling is an acceptable answer to dealing with ships like Battleship but "just dodging" is not despite the fact your basically just angling against planes. Though it's much harder and less guaranteed to work against different aircraft types, it does work.

Down with the Prevention Theory and rise up to Mitigation Theory.

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See the problem with RTS CVs is that they were way overpowered against players who can't think

Those players who can't think bought a lot of Tirpitz's when the game released and got wrecked against a competent CV player. For example,

So WG listened to those players and nerfed RTS CVs into the ground, and that's when the snowball of CV problems started.

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2 minutes ago, King_Zacarias said:

See the problem with RTS CVs is that they were way overpowered against players who can't think

Those players who can't think bought a lot of Tirpitz's when the game released and got wrecked against a competent CV player. For example,

So WG listened to those players and nerfed RTS CVs into the ground, and that's when the snowball of CV problems started.

The problem was RTS CV was overpowered against everyone, all the time, anywhere on the map. RTS CV could drop unavoidable blocks of torpedoes on you, each as strong as the best CV torps now but in greater numbers. They could spot anything possibly worth spotting on the map, all at the same time. Carriers lucky enough to have AP DB could also atomize certain ships, and the super HE DB on USN did some damage(not great, but decent. IJN DB was mostly for trying for fires and scouting after a drop). They could also stop the other CV from doing those things, and if the gap was even moderate probably lock them out of the game giving their team the advantage of these things with no downside.

In general a good RTS CV game went something like this. Start out and throw your fighters to the flanks. Contact the enemy fighters. Kill them all and take 1-2 casualties, because you are better at fighter combat. If the other CV decides to try an attack, kill all their strike planes. Strafe is good balance. Kill all the enemy destroyers with torpedo planes, unless they fit DFAA. You can 100% cross drop DD's and it wrecks them. 2 torpedo hits is a nearly dead DD, 3 almost guarantees it. Find battleships, kill them. If your lucky, your team is numpties, so you can rack up big damage doing this again and again. If cruisers or DFAA destroyers are involved, bait out their DFAA and kill them with torpedoes. You can kill everything with torpedoes. If you're a AP DB carrier, remember the magic list of ships you can cit. Maybe that cruiser can be atomized. The German BB certainly can- make him regret queueing in a German BB. Stupid plasma shields don't work against this. Win.

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2 hours ago, LookUpAndDodge said:

However broken and OP the RTS CV's were, they were atleast balanced in the aspect that you had a limited number of planes. If any CV player was careless about his fighters or any squadron then he would pay heavily and be useless once the reserves had been depleted which actually meant you had to have atleast some game knowledge about ships to do good in rts CV's.

Yes CV's have limited number of planes now too (technically), all you have to do is save your planes at the start and you will still have full squadrons at the end of the game. The pleasure of seeing a CV deplaned is gone unless theres some terribad CV player out there who yolos in his planes.

CV rework was supposed to reduce the gap between good and bad players. It has utterly failed at that as even now the red PR CV players is as useless as in RTS and the unicum CV player just laughs at him. The red PR players now have more planes to spot the enemy team which is basically all theyre good at while yoloing their planes and occasionally getting some high damage numbers which to be fair to any player he really shouldnt have

New CVs only increased the skill gap because back in Old CVs you could at least point and click. With New CVs you have to find away to not get shot out the sky before you get to your target and then you have to anticipate where you target is going which is harder to do without an assist that all normal ships have. To me, the real balance that New CVs have is that it made all the CVs playable in that at least you are not a 3-plane Independence fighting a 5-plane Ryujo. That is the only real balance they brought.

I've said it before, what I would've done is change the amount of squadrons, the amount of planes in each squadron, and the stats of each plane so that each nation is different yet seemingly balanced.

  • Ryujo
    • One Fighter
      • 4 planes
    • Two Torpedo Bombers
      • 4 planes each
    • Two Dive Bombers
      • 4 planes each
  • Independence
    • One Fighter
      • 6 planes
    • Two Torpedo Bombers
      • 3 planes each
    • Two Dive Bombers
      • 3 planes each

Similar but different but this would at least make fighting other nation's CVs more balanced as with Old Ryujo I could near-dominate games up to Tier VIII. With New Ryujo, she can't uptier anymore. While I guess Old CVs did get nerfed, I never noticed many of them in Old Ryujo up til when New CVs came out and I did used to play every day since 2016 when the game went live. My tactics kept me alive and they still keep me alive. Like I say in my signiature, (Almost) no one played like me and (almost) no one plays like me.

Edited by Vangm94
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1 hour ago, Admiral_Andy said:

You want planes to be limited like the old days so players have to be smart with them and not waste them but you don't want the same for regular ships?  Wouldn't it be better if ships had limited ammo so they don't just randomly spam shells all over when ever they are reloaded?  It would make people choose more careful when to shoot if they only had a certain number of shots.  

I am ok with what they have now because in the end this is a game.  In the old days a good player would deplane a CV in minutes.  Then The CV can't do anything the rest of the match.  That is no fun.  I think the skill level is a lot closer than it was.  You will always have exceptional players and terrible players in any ship.  CVs are no worse than any other ship in that regard.  

Because I can't hit you anywhere on the map from the most favorable angle every time, you have actual countermeasures against my shells that can negate damage entirely, and I have to be within my own firing range to hit you?

What a pointless comparison. CVs were deplaned because there were fighters and extremely buggy and lag-dependent strafes. Fighters are gone and they aren't coming back. As it stands, CVs can launch about 30-40 more attack planes (rockets, torps, dive bombers) than their hangars used to permit before the rework and those pre-rework hangar sizes INCLUDED fighters that were no longer in the game. Take out those fighters and CVs are deploying 2-3x as many attack planes as they could field before.

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1 hour ago, Pugilistic said:

Badda :etc_swear: Bing.

Even If they didnt go after each other, (y'know like every Pacific battle with a carrier on each side) it kept the CV players paying attention to possible threats to their ship staying afloat. Thats not much of a consideration now at higher tiers. 

As we have half as many planes to handle at a time, it's probably amounts to about the same effect.

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8 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

Because I can't hit you anywhere on the map from the most favorable angle every time, you have actual countermeasures against my shells that can negate damage entirely, and I have to be within my own firing range to hit you?

What a pointless comparison. CVs were deplaned because there were fighters and extremely buggy and lag-dependent strafes. Fighters are gone and they aren't coming back. As it stands, CVs can launch about 30-40 more attack planes (rockets, torps, dive bombers) than their hangars used to permit before the rework and those pre-rework hangar sizes INCLUDED fighters that were no longer in the game. Take out those fighters and CVs are deploying 2-3x as many attack planes as they could field before.

With most CV's, you're dealing with about as many aircraft as the RTS CV's. Difference is, instead of having 27 strike aircraft up at once back in RTS, we've got 12 now.

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I would take back the RTS CVs in a hot second the utter trash they put in its place ruined the game.

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2 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

With most CV's, you're dealing with about as many aircraft as the RTS CV's. Difference is, instead of having 27 strike aircraft up at once back in RTS, we've got 12 now.

Demonstrably false. CVs are launching far more planes than ever before, which is why their damage averages are up despite losing their alpha strike and supposedly being nerfed.

59 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

The problem was RTS CV was overpowered against everyone, all the time, anywhere on the map. RTS CV could drop unavoidable blocks of torpedoes on you, each as strong as the best CV torps now but in greater numbers. They could spot anything possibly worth spotting on the map, all at the same time. Carriers lucky enough to have AP DB could also atomize certain ships, and the super HE DB on USN did some damage(not great, but decent. IJN DB was mostly for trying for fires and scouting after a drop). They could also stop the other CV from doing those things, and if the gap was even moderate probably lock them out of the game giving their team the advantage of these things with no downside.

In general a good RTS CV game went something like this. Start out and throw your fighters to the flanks. Contact the enemy fighters. Kill them all and take 1-2 casualties, because you are better at fighter combat. If the other CV decides to try an attack, kill all their strike planes. Strafe is good balance. Kill all the enemy destroyers with torpedo planes, unless they fit DFAA. You can 100% cross drop DD's and it wrecks them. 2 torpedo hits is a nearly dead DD, 3 almost guarantees it. Find battleships, kill them. If your lucky, your team is numpties, so you can rack up big damage doing this again and again. If cruisers or DFAA destroyers are involved, bait out their DFAA and kill them with torpedoes. You can kill everything with torpedoes. If you're a AP DB carrier, remember the magic list of ships you can cit. Maybe that cruiser can be atomized. The German BB certainly can- make him regret queueing in a German BB. Stupid plasma shields don't work against this. Win.

And this is different from now...how exactly? Oh, a DD doesn't get cross dropped, he just gets dropped straight up 4 times by a rocket squad and dies. Oh, a CV can't spot two places at the same time? It doesn't matter, there's only one place that needed spotting anyways. Oh, a CV can drop unavoidable attacks? Except you forgot the part where we actually had AA and permanent plane losses back then, as opposed to now where we have neither.

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