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MassiveSalvo

Hayate Ehhh

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We get the Hayate, poor Conceal is poor. Reload is 4 SECONDS? You have to swap smoke for reload...seems the Smaaland(is superior) makes this look like, "ehhh..." This is just not the purchase for me and it is a bit of a Brick in the water. I will not be spending 2 Million Free XP on this. I suppose that people just didn't want to make a decent release here. Get something like a Halland and have some fun...

Edited by MassiveSalvo

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Hayate do have some good stuff.

guns: yes they do not fire that quickly, but those are IJN 125mm, with their great HE alpha and good ballistic. 
 

torpedo: with torpedo reload booster, you can drop a lot of fish in the water, and if they aren’t as quick as the smalland, they do more than twice the damage.

 

so it can become a nice premium. Not an OP one, and probably not a competitive one, but still a good one.

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1 hour ago, MassiveSalvo said:

We get the Hayate, poor Conceal is poor. Reload is 4 SECONDS? You have to swap smoke for reload...seems the Smaaland(is superior) makes this look like, "ehhh..." This is just not the purchase for me and it is a bit of a Brick in the water. I will not be spending 2 Million Free XP on this. I suppose that people just didn't want to make a decent release here. Get something like a Halland and have some fun...

6.1 km concealment is NOT poor for a tier 10 DD.  It's average.

As for the gun reload, if 4 seconds bothers you, take BFT and MBR3 in upgrade slot 6.  As for the torp reload, it's the same as the Shimakaze.  If you want to improve it, take TAE and the torp reload upgrade in slot 6.

It sounds like you're whining to me because the Hayate isn't OP right out of the box, as it were.

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57 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Hayate do have some good stuff.

guns: yes they do not fire that quickly, but those are IJN 125mm, with their great HE alpha and good ballistic. 
 

torpedo: with torpedo reload booster, you can drop a lot of fish in the water, and if they aren’t as quick as the smalland, they do more than twice the damage.

 

so it can become a nice premium. Not an OP one, and probably not a competitive one, but still a good one.

I think that the only thing that prevents the Hayate from being a competitive DD is that her concealment isn't around 5.8 to 5.9.  The rest of it is bearable with the right upgrades and commander's build.  That said, this is a hybrid DD and while upgrades and skills can definitely strengthen a torp build or a gun build, but not both.  I will say though that it is possible to somewhat skirt the line between guns and torps and partially strengthen both, just not fully.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

6.1 km concealment is NOT poor for a tier 10 DD.  It's average.

Well, it is kinda poor. The only ships you can outspot are those that you shouldn't try to gun fight (Khaba, Kleber, Haru). The rest have equal (z52) or lower (the rest), and some of those can even win a gun fight (Daring). So it is clearly bellow average, or at least bellow the median (because Khaba and Kleber make the average quite weird with their cruiser concealment).

 

But as you said, a slight concealment buff (maybe .14km less to be equal to the Daring) would make it more competitive. Or at least give a global boost to IJN torpedoes detection range, which is long due (why is Shima now probably only in 4th place in term of torpedo boat?)

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Well I've decided to use my FXP to get my 2 tier IX and 2 Tier VIII ships I've been grinding to Tier Xs.

As the 2 tier IX are the Japanese DDs, I feel I'm getting the better deal by getting 4 Tier Xs and 2 of them being better at specific things where the Hayate seems to sit in the 'Meh'-dle. :Smile_smile:

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27 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I think that the only thing that prevents the Hayate from being a competitive DD is that her concealment isn't around 5.8 to 5.9.  The rest of it is bearable with the right upgrades and commander's build.  That said, this is a hybrid DD and while upgrades and skills can definitely strengthen a torp build or a gun build, but not both.  I will say though that it is possible to somewhat skirt the line between guns and torps and partially strengthen both, just not fully.

I am likely going to get her but I think a good review - or good suggestions - is needed. I passed on Smalland mainly because I picked up Marceau for my T10 gunboat so looking at Hayate to be more of a torpedo boat. I am very curious to see your recommendation on how to skirt the line to strengthen both sides.

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I am generating about 200K free exp every three weeks (that is using flags), so will take about 30 weeks to get enough for this - not worth it in my book

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2 minutes ago, Khafni said:

I am likely going to get her but I think a good review - or good suggestions - is needed. I passed on Smalland mainly because I picked up Marceau for my T10 gunboat so looking at Hayate to be more of a torpedo boat. I am very curious to see your recommendation on how to skirt the line to strengthen both sides.

I have skirted the line for now by doing the following:

Guns) Took the slot 3 ASM module, and for skills, I took BFT and DE.

Torps) Took the slot 6 TTM2 module, and for skills, I took TAE.

Overall skills: Took the traditional 4 DD skills (i.e. PT, LS, SE, and CE) with the first 10 points and took TAE, BFT, and DE with the remaining 9 points.  This is/was my Akizuki captain who I'd reset his skills but never reassigned them after the most recent skill reset.

Overall upgrades: Main Battery 1, Engine Room Protection, ASM1, Propulsion mod 1, Concealment, and TTM2.

I won't say that this is my final build for my Hayate.  But it is my first build.  I split the difference between guns and torps in part because I didn't want to put up with such a horrible torp reload.

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35 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, it is kinda poor. The only ships you can outspot are those that you shouldn't try to gun fight (Khaba, Kleber, Haru). The rest have equal (z52) or lower (the rest), and some of those can even win a gun fight (Daring). So it is clearly bellow average, or at least bellow the median (because Khaba and Kleber make the average quite weird with their cruiser concealment).

 

But as you said, a slight concealment buff (maybe .14km less to be equal to the Daring) would make it more competitive. Or at least give a global boost to IJN torpedoes detection range, which is long due (why is Shima now probably only in 4th place in term of torpedo boat?)

I guess that I have a hard time calling average "poor".

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11 minutes ago, Panzer1113 said:

I am generating about 200K free exp every three weeks (that is using flags), so will take about 30 weeks to get enough for this - not worth it in my book

No idea how much I’m generating.

In any case; only about 1mil fxp right now because Friesland, (as well as other T10s I fxp’d to before the UU access missions were cut off.)

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Hayate for 2 million FXP, in a nutshell; Is WG out of their minds??? I got Salem for 1 Million. I have 2.4 Million FXP and I am NOT wasting them for a 'meh' ship...

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6 hours ago, Crucis said:

I have skirted the line for now by doing the following:

Guns) Took the slot 3 ASM module, and for skills, I took BFT and DE.

Torps) Took the slot 6 TTM2 module, and for skills, I took TAE.

Overall skills: Took the traditional 4 DD skills (i.e. PT, LS, SE, and CE) with the first 10 points and took TAE, BFT, and DE with the remaining 9 points.  This is/was my Akizuki captain who I'd reset his skills but never reassigned them after the most recent skill reset.

Overall upgrades: Main Battery 1, Engine Room Protection, ASM1, Propulsion mod 1, Concealment, and TTM2.

I won't say that this is my final build for my Hayate.  But it is my first build.  I split the difference between guns and torps in part because I didn't want to put up with such a horrible torp reload.

I see where you are taking her and it looks nice. I'm holding off grabbing her long enough to hear what some of the CC say. I passed on Smaland for her so I want to hear a number of opinions.

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12 hours ago, Crucis said:

I guess that I have a hard time calling average "poor".

Out of the almost 50 DDs the Hayate will see, it can outspot about a dozen, and has equal to another 2.  That's POOR - bottom 1/3rd of all DDs T8-10.  Especially considering how awful the maneuverability is - the few it out-spots, it will get spotted anyway unless on a parallel course.


Realistically, she's almost identical to a Z-52. No Hydro, longer smokes, better HE but worse AP. MUCH worse maneuverability, and worse torpedoes (in practice, not on paper).

 

And the Z-52 does NOT do well in the current meta.

Edited by LAnybody
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On 4/29/2020 at 2:52 AM, LAnybody said:

 

Out of the almost 50 DDs the Hayate will see, it can outspot about a dozen, and has equal to another 2.  That's POOR - bottom 1/3rd of all DDs T8-10.  Especially considering how awful the maneuverability is - the few it out-spots, it will get spotted anyway unless on a parallel course.


Realistically, she's almost identical to a Z-52. No Hydro, longer smokes, better HE but worse AP. MUCH worse maneuverability, and worse torpedoes (in practice, not on paper).

 

And the Z-52 does NOT do well in the current meta.

Hey

And Z52 brings a very quick torpedo reload of nearly half and she gets that mentioned German hydro.  she is just a better all purpose DD which doesn't cost 2 million FXP to get.  Wargaming of course will be unlikely to show German DD's any love since they have been power crept but the Z52 is still a more useful DD than Hayate.  For 2 million FXP; the Smaland is a better purchase (personally neither are worth it IMHO).

 

Pete

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Hayate:   Focusing on any one stat it has is a pretty bad mistake...  It's the whole package.. Gun performance  (solid)  Torpedo Performance (solid) AA.. competitive though NOT an AA DD.  Nimbleness... umm no not really though it does have a reasonable turn of speed and with the engine boost mod when it want to run away.. it runs away!

 

Like Yugumo, it can gun fight, and it can gun fight better than Yugumo because the guns are simply better performing, traverse faster, shoot further and have a higher rate of fire.  It carry's more torps (2 tubes more)  then Yugumo with all the torpedo type options, has significantly better AA than Yugumo with the main guns being dual use and several 2x40mm bofors knock off mounts.  Decent speed, but not especially nimble, but that again there really are not any especially "nimble" tier X DD's so less important than one would think... if yer getting shot at you either messed up, or are expecting it because of what you are doing.  (ship doesn't drive it's self!).  You can go with a torpedo focused build and still have good guns.  I would personally only bother with Concealment and RPF for 4 point commander skills.. RPF because its ALWAYS better to know when somethings close.  Getting spotted by another DD and not having your guns already pointed at 'em is a recipe for disaster no matter what the tier is.  Everything else is the standard lot of DD skills.. a good choice for Yamamoto as captain.. get those guns on target that much faster.  Especially with his boost to ROF so by all means AR and last stand aslo.

Honestly set it up like you would a Yugumo because its essentially a better Yugumo.  It has better self defence AA than Shimmy and significantly better guns.   How ever it IS overpriced in the FXP department IMHO.. I take that back.. in my NOT so humble opinion.   Ya want a super ship, well, it qualifies, but it gonna take a super player to get the best out of it that near instinctively understand how to drive IJN DD's and that's all on you!.

 

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Picked up this ship recently, it is actually very slept on.
I was also skeptical on release, but the 6.1km concealment and maneuverability flaws are rather overstated.
It is no Shimakaze, so don't focus on playing it like one. 

Instead, absolutely focus on the guns; take Main Battery Reload mod and get the reload to 3.5 seconds. The difference is quite noticeable; this ship can literally outgun Daring, Halland, Gearing and so forth to the point these DD engagements are really decided by the captain rather than ships on a tactical level.

Hayate packs Kitakaze levels of firepower without needing IFHE in a fairly similar hull in terms of maneuverability. Hayate base speed with speed flags is 38.9 kts vs Kita: 37.8 kts, Haru: 37.5 kts, Shima: 41.0 kts.
That speed is solid for a DD alongside the fact it still has engine boost (consider engine boost mod) is a huge advantage over Daring, a ship Hayate is compared to frequently.

Double quintuple torp tubes basically already function as a built-in TRB compared to Kita/Harugumo. Taking smoke is just more consistent and versatile for the gunplay focus this ship is better suited for.

What people don't realize is this ship is also very capable of open water gunboating at 9-11km.
Smoke is nice to have to preserve HP pool, but when the opportunities open up, you can absolutely farm the hell out of BBs with open water HE spam and still be maneuverable enough to kite very effectively. Kitakaze can already do this, Harugumo cannot, Hayate can do it just as well if not better. Daring can somewhat do it but with far floatier gun arcs and rather slow ship speed for kiting (36.8kts).

The amount of potential damage you can farm in Hayate can almost be comparable to Khaba or Kleber when played aggressively in the right moments.

 

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On 4/28/2020 at 2:31 PM, Crucis said:

6.1 km concealment is NOT poor for a tier 10 DD.  It's average.

As for the gun reload, if 4 seconds bothers you, take BFT and MBR3 in upgrade slot 6.  As for the torp reload, it's the same as the Shimakaze.  If you want to improve it, take TAE and the torp reload upgrade in slot 6.

It sounds like you're whining to me because the Hayate isn't OP right out of the box, as it were.

6.1 concealment is bad for  Torp boat DD as Gearing and Shima have better concealment as do DDs tiers 9 and 8 that are torpedo focused.

So while the offensive power of Hayate is not at all bad, but what dies make the ship considered to be bad is the concealment. Her Torp boat rivals all are under 6km. And even some gunboats cut close to 6km, so you can see how that would create serious issues for Hayate. Like my Harekaze can get away with torpedo reload booster combat since it’s concealment is 5.4km which compensates fir the lack of smoke.

And to top it all off the Hayate costs 2 million Free XP which adds insult to injury between the nerfed concealment and the high price.

There is one other way Hayate could be redeemed and that is if it had the option to swap its 12km torpedoes for the 20km torpedoes and thus give it more options.

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On 5/14/2020 at 4:01 PM, hyuuu said:

Picked up this ship recently, it is actually very slept on.
I was also skeptical on release, but the 6.1km concealment and maneuverability flaws are rather overstated.
It is no Shimakaze, so don't focus on playing it like one. 

Instead, absolutely focus on the guns; take Main Battery Reload mod and get the reload to 3.5 seconds. The difference is quite noticeable; this ship can literally outgun Daring, Halland, Gearing and so forth to the point these DD engagements are really decided by the captain rather than ships on a tactical level.

Not even at 3.5 seconds can she outgun a Daring, which has a 2.8 reload without BFT or MBR.  The extra HE Alpha can't make up that difference, and slapping BFT on the Daring gives it a BIG advantage in DPM. Made worse by the fact that the Hayate's guns are on the rear,, and it has to turn broadside to get them into action for the most part.  A nose-in Daring will WRECK a Hayate trying to get all 3 turrets in action, or even just bow-in.  Only if the Hayate get the Daring to stern chase it does it come even approximately even. Same problem against the Gearing - the Hayate's slightly better Alpha doesn't make up for the bad layout of guns and the worse ROF.  Heck, same for the Z-52:  if the Hayate has to turn to get it's rear guns in play, the Z52's AP will wreck it, because it absolutely will pen and not overpen. 

Sorry, but you'd have to be a potatoe driver of a Daring, Gearing, or even a Z-52 to lose to a Hayate in a gunfight.

On 5/14/2020 at 4:01 PM, hyuuu said:

Hayate packs Kitakaze levels of firepower without needing IFHE in a fairly similar hull in terms of maneuverability. Hayate base speed with speed flags is 38.9 kts vs Kita: 37.8 kts, Haru: 37.5 kts, Shima: 41.0 kts.
That speed is solid for a DD alongside the fact it still has engine boost (consider engine boost mod) is a huge advantage over Daring, a ship Hayate is compared to frequently.

That's not even remotely true. The Hayate can't even come close to competing against the Kit in ROF or DPM.  The Kit has 25% more guns, 15% better ROF, and the dual guns up front.   And that doesn't even get into the fact that the Kit gets the excellent pen on the guns, where the Hayate is stuck not even being able to pen 27mm WITH IFHE, and can't pen 22mm without.  The Hayate can't gunboat against anything but other DDs; at the very best, it's a decent fire-starter against bigger ships, but that's it, and that has serious limits at T10. 

People comparing it to the Daring are missing the entire point:  the Hayate is very similar to the Z-52, NOT the Daring.  That's the comparison. 

On 5/14/2020 at 4:01 PM, hyuuu said:

Double quintuple torp tubes basically already function as a built-in TRB compared to Kita/Harugumo. Taking smoke is just more consistent and versatile for the gunplay focus this ship is better suited for.

Again, why are you comparing a hybrid to a pure gunboat?   And it's not really suitable for gunplay:  it's out-spotted and out-gunned by the other "hybrids" it supposedly is playing against.

On 5/14/2020 at 4:01 PM, hyuuu said:

What people don't realize is this ship is also very capable of open water gunboating at 9-11km.
Smoke is nice to have to preserve HP pool, but when the opportunities open up, you can absolutely farm the hell out of BBs with open water HE spam and still be maneuverable enough to kite very effectively. Kitakaze can already do this, Harugumo cannot, Hayate can do it just as well if not better. Daring can somewhat do it but with far floatier gun arcs and rather slow ship speed for kiting (36.8kts).

The amount of potential damage you can farm in Hayate can almost be comparable to Khaba or Kleber when played aggressively in the right moments.

Not really. The Hayate is ENTIRELY dependent on fire to cause damage to BBs and even CAs (the superstructures saturate quickly), and then you're left with the torpedoes, and no one "farms" with torps, not even the Shima or Halland.   Both the Daring and the Halland HE spam far, far better than the Hayate, due to better ROF, better turret rotation, with only a slightly lower fire chance. Both also open-water maneuver better, which is far more important than raw speed when you're open-water gunboating against large targets.

 

The parallel is the Z-52. Not anything else.  And look how well the Z-52 is doing now days. 

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4 hours ago, LAnybody said:

Not even at 3.5 seconds can she outgun a Daring, which has a 2.8 reload without BFT or MBR.  The extra HE Alpha can't make up that difference, and slapping BFT on the Daring gives it a BIG advantage in DPM. Made worse by the fact that the Hayate's guns are on the rear,, and it has to turn broadside to get them into action for the most part ...

That's not even remotely true. The Hayate can't even come close to competing against the Kit in ROF or DPM

People comparing it to the Daring are missing the entire point:  the Hayate is very similar to the Z-52, NOT the Daring. 

Both the Daring and the Halland HE spam far, far better than the Hayate, due to better ROF, better turret rotation, with only a slightly lower fire chance. Both also open-water maneuver better, which is far more important than raw speed when you're open-water gunboating against large targets.

Either you haven't played Hayate or you have limited practice in observing theoretical vs practical DPM in a DD gun fight, because you seem fixated on comparing the raw numbers and thinking Hayate's guns fall short.

If you played Hayate or even Shima, you would know IJN guns are actually strong when used correctly. When you have 127mm IJN guns reloading at a rate comparable to 100mm IJN guns with IFHE, you underestimate how much of a difference that makes in an actual fight. Every salvo you let out with 127mms, you will need usually 1.5 - 3x the number of salvos in 100mm guns to do the same. The key difference being players aren't dumb enough to stay broadside and do a raw DPM comparison. Both DDs (unless retarded) are weaving in and out; the window for dealing effective damage is short so high HE alpha matters when the other ship makes the wrong turn in.

A somewhat competent DD player also wouldn't be staying bow-in to a Daring at 5km. Hayate's layout is designed to be kiting away and shoot. That advantage is huge if the enemy Daring/Gearing/Z-52 or whatever DD decides to press on the attack even with their dual bow on turret layout.

And I don't see the comparison to Z-52 with Hayate at all having played both. There is a huge disconnect if you somehow think they are in the same category.
Z-52's HE alpha is disappointingly low and mainly wins DD fights through perma hydro smoke traps that are incredibly difficult to set up with the current CV and radar meta.
Short smoke action consumable, low alpha but spammable torps, and limited use but effective AP, none of which apply to Hayate whether advantageous or not. 

Yea I don't see where the similarity is at all.

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5 minutes ago, hyuuu said:

Either you haven't played Hayate or you have limited practice in observing theoretical vs practical DPM in a DD gun fight, because you seem fixated on comparing the raw numbers and thinking Hayate's guns fall short.

If you played Hayate or even Shima, you would know IJN guns are actually strong when used correctly. When you have 127mm IJN guns reloading at a rate comparable to 100mm IJN guns with IFHE, you underestimate how much of a difference that makes in an actual fight. Every salvo you let out with 127mms, you will need usually 1.5 - 3x the number of salvos in 100mm guns to do the same. The key difference being players aren't dumb enough to stay broadside and do a raw DPM comparison. Both DDs (unless retarded) are weaving in and out; the window for dealing effective damage is short so high HE alpha matters when the other ship makes the wrong turn in.

A somewhat competent DD player also wouldn't be staying bow-in to a Daring at 5km. Hayate's layout is designed to be kiting away and shoot. That advantage is huge if the enemy Daring/Gearing/Z-52 or whatever DD decides to press on the attack even with their dual bow on turret layout.

And I don't see the comparison to Z-52 with Hayate at all having played both. There is a huge disconnect if you somehow think they are in the same category.
Z-52's HE alpha is disappointingly low and mainly wins DD fights through perma hydro smoke traps that are incredibly difficult to set up with the current CV and radar meta.
Short smoke action consumable, low alpha but spammable torps, and limited use but effective AP, none of which apply to Hayate whether advantageous or not. 

Yea I don't see where the similarity is at all.

I can vouch for the fact that the IJN 127mm guns are quite good. Their sailors tend to be well grouped, good damage, good fire chance, and if a Hayate reloads like the 100mm guns then those 127mm guns get even deadlier. It is a common misunderstanding as ships from Shinonome, Akatsuki, and high in tier IJN Torp boat line DDs don’t have the right reputation with their guns when in reality they can fend off surprising enemy ships. Have seen even some of the good gunboat DDs fall to those guns if the IJN player is good.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I can vouch for the fact that the IJN 127mm guns are quite good. Their sailors tend to be well grouped, good damage, good fire chance, and if a Hayate reloads like the 100mm guns then those 127mm guns get even deadlier. It is a common misunderstanding as ships from Shinonome, Akatsuki, and high in tier IJN Torp boat line DDs don’t have the right reputation with their guns when in reality they can fend off surprising enemy ships. Have seen even some of the good gunboat DDs fall to those guns if the IJN player is good.

IJN 127mms don't get enough respect, especially from the average pubbie, but they're quite workable and situationally very powerful. Way too many folks underestimate them because of the sluggish turret traverse and slow reload, but they hit REALLY hard, and if you catch an enemy DD unaware, you can usually get two and sometimes even three shots in before they're able to respond.

--Helms

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On 5/25/2020 at 3:21 PM, thehelmsman said:

but they hit REALLY hard, and if you catch an enemy DD unaware, you can usually get two and sometimes even three shots in before they're able to respond.

But if they catch you by surprise, they might get in 4 to 6 salvos before you can get a bead on them. In mutual surprise most DDs will have a couple of salvos on the way before you can get one off.

Big gripe I have for slow turrets on a DD is when they make me choose between dodging or shooting.

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On 5/26/2020 at 6:43 AM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I can vouch for the fact that the IJN 127mm guns are quite good. Their sailors tend to be well grouped, good damage, good fire chance, and if a Hayate reloads like the 100mm guns then those 127mm guns get even deadlier. It is a common misunderstanding as ships from Shinonome, Akatsuki, and high in tier IJN Torp boat line DDs don’t have the right reputation with their guns when in reality they can fend off surprising enemy ships. Have seen even some of the good gunboat DDs fall to those guns if the IJN player is good.

The IJN guns are quite reasonable, and they're something that does often get short shrift from most players.  But, as regularly pointed out by a lot of very experienced IJN DD players here, the 127mms are SITUATIONALLY effective. They are not GENERALLY effective.  Even the improved turret rotation and ROF on the Hayate doesn't really make them into gun-oriented ships.  It does really help when gunboating against bigger ships, but they're still significantly inferior for DD gunfights.

It's a VERY far cry from claiming the Hayate is capable of holding it's own in a gunfight with any other T10 DD.  The concealment is the problem, because, unlike the Shima, the Hayate CANNOT dictate the terms of the engagement.  It cannot then position itself to make the most of it's guns, and it's maneuverability is bad enough that it can't quickly compensate to put itself into a more favorable position. THAT, more than anything else, is why the Hayate will absolutely lose to other DDs consistently.  You can certainly win if fortune favors you (or if your opponent is a potato), but we're talking about EQUAL FOOTING here.  Because it's not a ringing endorsement of a ship if you have to say "well, a Great player can beat an Average one some of the time". 

On 5/26/2020 at 6:33 AM, hyuuu said:

Either you haven't played Hayate or you have limited practice in observing theoretical vs practical DPM in a DD gun fight, because you seem fixated on comparing the raw numbers and thinking Hayate's guns fall short.

If you played Hayate or even Shima, you would know IJN guns are actually strong when used correctly. When you have 127mm IJN guns reloading at a rate comparable to 100mm IJN guns with IFHE, you underestimate how much of a difference that makes in an actual fight. Every salvo you let out with 127mms, you will need usually 1.5 - 3x the number of salvos in 100mm guns to do the same. The key difference being players aren't dumb enough to stay broadside and do a raw DPM comparison. Both DDs (unless retarded) are weaving in and out; the window for dealing effective damage is short so high HE alpha matters when the other ship makes the wrong turn in.

But they're NOT comparable ROF.  Nor HE penetration. And not even in the number of guns. The Kitikaze is significantly more maneuverable than the Hayate, has 25% more guns, significantly stealthier, and even in the best case scenario (BFT+MBM3 on the Hayate, nothing on the Kit), has a slower reload. The HE alpha advantage is lost when you can't broadside to get all the guns going. Only if you completely optimize the Hayate for gunboating vs a more general-purpose Kitakaze is there something approaching parity. 

In your dodge-and-weave setup, the problem is that the Hayate can't do it anywhere as well as the Kit. So the HE Alpha advantage is completely nullified, since the kit can get all 4 turrets to fire 3 salvoes (then turn back in) while the Hayate is going to be lucky to get 2 salvos out of those 3 turrets.   And of course, nimble stuff like the Gearing and Daring will just run rings around the Hayate when dodging.  

On 5/26/2020 at 6:33 AM, hyuuu said:

A somewhat competent DD player also wouldn't be staying bow-in to a Daring at 5km. Hayate's layout is designed to be kiting away and shoot. That advantage is huge if the enemy Daring/Gearing/Z-52 or whatever DD decides to press on the attack even with their dual bow on turret layout.

Really?  When both the Gearing and Daring can easily out-DPM a kiting Hayate in a pursuit?  The Z-52 doesn't, obviously, but if you're presuming the Hayate player is decent, why not presume the Z-52 is, to, and it wouldn't ever press such a stupid situation.  

On 5/26/2020 at 6:33 AM, hyuuu said:

And I don't see the comparison to Z-52 with Hayate at all having played both. There is a huge disconnect if you somehow think they are in the same category.
Z-52's HE alpha is disappointingly low and mainly wins DD fights through perma hydro smoke traps that are incredibly difficult to set up with the current CV and radar meta.
Short smoke action consumable, low alpha but spammable torps, and limited use but effective AP, none of which apply to Hayate whether advantageous or not. 

Yea I don't see where the similarity is at all.

I've played the Hayate, and if you're not seeing how it's a poorer Z-52, go look at the post upthread where I detail in VERY EXPLICIT terms why the Hayate is poor compared to all the other T10 DDs, and how it extremely closely parallels the Z-52, but does it worse in most respects.  Forward-facing guns are simply more useful than rear-facing ones, in the majority of situations, as you're most likely to be detected while sailing TOWARDS something.  Particularly in a fast(er) DD. 

And, the Z-52's AP is actually very good against most DDs.  I'd have to check it out against the Hayate, because the Shima/Yugumo/Kagero are definitely ones where it's hard to get a full pen on. But against practically all other DDs, the german AP works very well against the broadside of the ship.  And when we're talking about the Daring, it's AP just murders anything that's not purely bow or stern-on.  A Daring vs a Hayate isn't even a bad joke - it's straight up suicide without a massive HP advantage for the Hayate or a completely screwy position for the Daring.  

 

Again, you seem to be completely limiting your comparison to places where you can play solely to the Hayate's strengths, and ignoring the myriad of places where it can't do that. Worse, you're ignoring the fact that the Hayate is LESS ABLE to get itself in a favorable situation than practically any other T10 DD.  So the places where it can play to its strengths are GREATLY outnumbered by places where it's weakness are exposed and put the Hayate at a significant disadvantage. 

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